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Cardenosine - Liquid Product For R&D

Discussion in 'IdeaLabs' started by haidut, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    Thank you!
     
  2. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Can't speak about specific conditions but the combination of L-PGA + B6 does seem to raise dopamine quite a bit, so in theory should help dopamine deficiency states. That is why it is used for ADHD, which is also a dopamien deficiency state.
     
  3. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Yes, the combination of L-PGA and B6 is the antihangover product I had in mind. Originally, I thought of adding succinic acid to it and releasing as a separate AlcoBan product but then I realized the effects are due to raising ATP and since I had an ATP product in the works I thought it would be best to combine them both because of synergistic effects and to not have people spend money on two separate supplements that actually work best together.
     
  4. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Why wouldn't it be legal? None of the ingredients is a controlled substance and how people use it is their business. We are just not advertising it for human consumption. As you probably know, you can buy liquid aromatase inhibitors like letrozole / anastrozole, SARMs, SERMs (tamoxifen, clomiphene), etc from various US-based vendors and they market their products for "R&D purposes only". Ultimately, it comes down to safety and potential for abuse. In this product, everything is substance that exists in the organism naturally or in the diet, and none of the ingredients is a controlled substance like those SARM/SERM, AI or designers steroids which also available legally.
     
  5. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I suppose adding creatine could help improve ATP, but in my experience succinic acid is a much better and more direct precursor. Creatine is more of a buffer that can be used to provide emergency ATP source. On the other hand, succinic acid HAS to be metabolized into ATP as that is the ultimate destination of all food we eat and that food (after a few steps) always goes through the succinic acid step.
     
  6. dilantinoid

    dilantinoid Member

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    copy that
     
  7. Wagner83

    Wagner83 Member

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    Ok cool! Some people don't tolerate MB, could you briefly compare the difference in effects betweenMB and this new supplement or even inosine?
    By the way I've been wondering if exercise lowers BP (you were a former athlete and love your MB) then perhaps exercise would be a nice supplement to a MB regimen ?
     
  8. Koveras

    Koveras Member

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    Oral ATP raises uric acid as well, although the acute doses were high

    Adenosine 5'-triphosphate (ATP) supplements are not orally bioavailable: a randomized, placebo-controlled cross-over trial in healthy humans.

    "A single dose of orally administered ATP is not bioavailable, and this may explain why several studies did not find ergogenic effects of oral ATP supplementation. On the other hand, increases in uric acid after release of ATP in the proximal part of the small intestine suggest that ATP or one of its metabolites is absorbed and metabolized. Uric acid itself may have ergogenic effects, but this needs further study. Also, more studies are needed to determine whether chronic administration of ATP will enhance its oral bioavailability."​

    Oral bioavailability of ATP after prolonged administration.

    "ATP supplementation for 4 weeks did not lead to changes in blood or plasma ATP concentrations. Of all ATP metabolites, only plasma uric acid levels increased significantly after the administration of 5000 mg of ATP. Prolonged administration of ATP was safe as evidenced from liver and kidney parameters. We conclude that oral administration of ATP only resulted in increased uric acid concentrations."
    Screen Shot 2018-02-10 at 7.55.22 AM.pngScreen Shot 2018-02-10 at 7.55.57 AM.png
     
  9. Koveras

    Koveras Member

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    How is ribose metabolized?
     
  10. mirc12354

    mirc12354 Member

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    how much would you take in order to prevent hangover?before or after heavy night out?
     
  11. Koveras

    Koveras Member

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    I've seen that even a mild dietary phosphorous deficiency can impair cell ATP levels. Creatine will also increase phosphate requirements and uptake - potentially a mechanism for creatine induced muscle cramps if that mild dietary phosphate deficiency is present and/or if there is insulin resistance. Important to consider, especially for athletes, considering the general emphasis on reducing phosphate intake here. ATP in this product comes with its own phosphate, but I assume ramping up ETC or utilizing the purine salvage pathways could increase phosphate requirements further.
     
  12. Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    Thank you!
     
  13. GAF

    GAF Member

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    I notice that distilled water is the only additional ingredient so does that mean this product is designed for oral intake. There appear to be no topical absorption enhancers.

    Also, it appears to me that this product does not have to be limited to the lab chemical section. Why not also include it in the supplement section, since
    Or, technically, should it only be in the supplement section?
     
  14. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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  15. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Well, MB is just an electron carrier, an oxidizing agent. So, it is the spark that helps burn the fuel. However, if the Krebs cycle is not working well and not enough electrons reach the ETC then MB probably won't do much for ATP even tough it has other benefits such as lowering inflammation (as per my other recent post). Succinic acid and inosine are kind of like pre-formed ATP precursors, which have been shown to raise ATP in humans and animals, and MB can make that process even more efficient. So, Oxidal and Energin would be the spark and Cardenosine the fuel in my analogy.
    Exercise seems to lower BP due to keeping blood vessels flexible, and it also lowers heart rate. If MB raises BP then I would try some taurine, and/or vitamin K/D as it could be an issue with vascular calcification and those have been shown to reverse it. Exercise may help too, so I would use whatever works best for the specific person.
     
  16. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    The human studies in the ATP section of the thread show positive effects from oral ATP administration. Yes, most of it breaks down into adenosine and phosphate but the purine salvage pathway seems to be pretty efficient in regenerating that ATP using the resulting adenosine. In addition, rodent studies show that about 10% of orally administered ATP enters circulation unchanged (i.e. without breakdown). Furthermore, one of the rodent studies, also in that ATP section, shows that chronic feeding of ATP orally made the rodents really efficient at converting food into ATP, so the positive effects may be more related to how exogenous ATP changes the physiology than its direct contribution as a purine.
    So, exogenous ATP definitely has effects and I hoping that further human studies will elucidate the mechanism.
     
  17. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I would use a single dose (40 drops) about 1 hour before drinking. I don't think a second dose is needed. Higher doses, equivalent to 2 servings (80 drops) daily have been used to treat cirrhosis and other liver diseases.
     
  18. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Ribose actually shares a common pathway with inosine for re-generating ATP. Ribose gets converted into ribose-5-phosphate, then this ribose-5-P gets converted into phosphoribosyl pyrophosphate (PRPP), then PRPP gets converted into phosphoribosylamine, which then gets converted into inosine-5-monophosphate (IMP). Inosine also replenishes ATP through conversion into IMP. But inosine already contains ribose within its structure, so I don't think there is need to add even more ribose as a separate ingredient in this product.
     
  19. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    True, good points. I may actually change the inosine to inosine-5-monophosphate (IMP) since that way it will also have its own phosphate supply, leaving only succinic acid competing for phosphate groups. IMP is harder to source, but I will see what can be done. It is more water-soluble than inosine so I may be able to dissolve more per dose and make this even more effective.
     
  20. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Succinic acid is a transdermal enhancer and so is pyroglutamic acid.
    [Oleyl pyroglutamate for use as transdermal enhancer and its enhancing mechanism]. - PubMed - NCBI
    http://www.pharmtech.tu-bs.de/files/muegoy/JFokuhlJena0910.pdf

    We may move it to the supplement section. I am waiting on our lawyer to opine on the matter.
     
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