Progest-e And Progestogenic [Danny Roddy]

[Inaut]

@Hans I know it’s not injection but I tried filling a shower cap with co2 on my wet scalp. I even attempted to fill a swimming cap as it’s more air tight but wasn’t effect. If somebody figures out a way to trap co2 on scalp, I’d be more than willing to try !

 

[Hans]

@Hans I know it’s not injection but I tried filling a shower cap with co2 on my wet scalp. I even attempted to fill a swimming cap as it’s more air tight but wasn’t effect. If somebody figures out a way to trap co2 on scalp, I’d be more than willing to try !

Yeah, I think if someone can package CO2 into a topical supplement that would be ideal lol.

 

[mrchibbs]

Yeah, I think if someone can package CO2 into a topical supplement that would be ideal lol.

I have an idea, why not fill a bucket or sink with water, then add baking soda and citric acid. The reaction forms carbon dioxide. Apparently that’s a CO2 bath in Japan

At that point someone could use a derma roller on their scalp and then soak their head in the CO2 mixture for 5-10 minutes.

I did see a girl on YouTube who got CO2 injections in her scalp.

 

[mrchibbs]

All this tangent reminds me that Ray and Danny have recommended topical carbonic anhydrase inhibitors in the past.

 

[golder]

All this tangent reminds me that Ray and Danny have recommended topical carbonic anhydrase inhibitors in the past.

Interesting, how can we find/make them? Dissolve a Diamox in water and topically apply to the head/scalp?

 

[Hans]

I have an idea, why not fill a bucket or sink with water, then add baking soda and citric acid. The reaction forms carbon dioxide. Apparently that’s a CO2 bath in Japan

At that point someone could use a derma roller on their scalp and then soak their head in the CO2 mixture for 5-10 minutes.

I did see a girl on YouTube who got CO2 injections in her scalp.

Could work. It would most likely be a pain in the **** to do regularly, but if it works it works. :)

 

[mrchibbs]

Could work. It would most likely be a pain in the **** to do regularly, but if it works it works. :)

haha I said nothing of its practicality

 

[mrchibbs]

Could work. It would most likely be a pain in the **** to do regularly, but if it works it works. :)

In the true spirit of William Blake, I gave this experiment a trial this morning.

I am not a fan of dermarolling as a hair loss therapy but it is an effective tool to increase penetration in tissues.

So basically I mixed citric acid and baking soda in a sink and it bubbled away with carbon dioxide. So I used a dermaroller all over my scalp, side and all, and I spent 15-20 minutes dipping my head in there.

Dont have much to report, except that it felt pretty good, and now my scalp is nice and pink, but not inflammed. (I shaved my hair so its easier to see the difference) Bending over a sink is not super comfortable though.

 

[Hans]

In the true spirit of William Blake, I gave this experiment a trial this morning.

I am not a fan of dermarolling as a hair loss therapy but it is an effective tool to increase penetration in tissues.

So basically I mixed citric acid and baking soda in a sink and it bubbled away with carbon dioxide. So I used a dermaroller all over my scalp, side and all, and I spent 15-20 minutes dipping my head in there.

Dont have much to report, except that it felt pretty good, and now my scalp is nice and pink, but not inflammed. (I shaved my hair so its easier to see the difference) Bending over a sink is not super comfortable though.

See picture below for an overview of the setup

Hat tip to you for experimenting. You'd never know the results until you try. How often do you plan on doing it?

 

[mrchibbs]

Hat tip to you for experimenting. You'd never know the results until you try. How often do you plan on doing it?

About once a week I guess. I don't want to use the derma-roller on my scalp too often.

 

[Hans]

About once a week I guess. I don't want to use the derma-roller on my scalp too often.

For some reason, the way Haidut asked Peat if CO2 in supplement form would be the ideal supplement, made it sound like he was making something along those lines. Would be awesome if he could.

 

[Inaut]

Who wants to swallow some dry ice? (kidding). Do not attempt anyone!

 

[mrchibbs]

For some reason, the way Haidut asked Peat if CO2 in supplement form would be the ideal supplement, made it sound like he was making something along those lines. Would be awesome if he could.

A very potent topical carbonic anhydrase inhibitor would be an amazing supplement.

Georgi @haidut always has something amazing up his sleeve. Last summer I asked him about making a camphoric acid supplement, he said, oh yeah that's interesting I really like camphor, but I don't think I'll be able to do it right now for some reason.

About a month later he was coming out with camphosal lol, he's coming out with amazing supplements all the time. I can't wait for the results of his DHT study that was delayed, and
in one of the latest interviews with Danny he said he was working on anti-histamine anti-serotonin med like cypro but without the anti-dopamine effects.

He's truly doing the lord's work, whatever that means

 

[mrchibbs]

Who wants to swallow some dry ice? (kidding). Do not attempt anyone!

You really had to add the (kidding) part lol

Right before Hans and I were praising experimentation, someone might have thought you were serious.

 

[Hans]

A very potent topical carbonic anhydrase inhibitor would be an amazing supplement.

Georgi @haidut always has something amazing up his sleeve. Last summer I asked him about making a camphoric acid supplement, he said, oh yeah that's interesting I really like camphor, but I don't think I'll be able to do it right now for some reason.

About a month later he was coming out with camphosal lol, he's coming out with amazing supplements all the time. I can't wait for the results of his DHT study that was delayed, and
in one of the latest interviews with Danny he said he was working on anti-histamine anti-serotonin med like cypro but without the anti-dopamine effects.

He's truly doing the lord's work, whatever that means

Indeed, I'm absolutely thrilled for his protodioscin and anti-serotonin products.

 

[Inaut]

Thinking about a co2 supplement makes me feel like the way this bass sounds. Btw, I know it’s not the place for this but he’s playing a left handed bass upside down :)

Or this

 

[mrchibbs]

Thinking about a co2 supplement makes me feel like the way this bass sounds. Btw, I know it’s not the place for this but he’s playing a left handed bass upside down :)

Or this

That is truly sick. It's always the place for music.

You have awesome music taste

 

[mrchibbs]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned re: finasteride being progestinic is that progesterone itself is reduced by 5ar.

View attachment 18095

I'm not sure if there's been a paper investigating this, but finasteride's pro-progesterone effects may be because it increases serum progesterone directly by inhibiting it's reduction to 5a-DHP.

This would leave you with the pro-hair effects of elevated serum progesterone, without many of the other positive effects seen when taking exogenous prog because it's downstream metabolites are suppressed. Many of progesterone's beneficial effects come from it's conversion to 5a-DHP, and subsequently allopregnanolone, because of the latter's potent GABA-A agonism. This reduction in allopreg is postulated as the cause for fin-induced brain fog, depression and anxiety.

So fin might increase serum prog which is beneficial for hair, whilst simultaneously reducing systemic progestin activity - hence the side effects (and ofc the heavy suppression of dht plays a big role, too).

@Broco6679

You were totally right.

I've been doing some digging and it seems post-finasteride patients have higher plasma progesterone, but lower cerebrospinal progesterone vs. controls. Along with the vast majority of neurological symptoms from the deranged 5-alpha and lack of allopregnanolone. It seems like the progesterone just stays there, and can't be metabolized further. And thus (someone corrected my initial ideas on this) finasteride indeed doesn't seem to affect aldosterone, cortisol in a positive way.

Honestly, I've been comparing finasteride with spironolactone and cyproterone acetate, and it seems finasteride is much, much worse and dangerous than the 2 others, with no evidence of better success. All of the scientific papers I'm seeing seem to be stating that the neurological changes caused by finasteride are seemingly irreversible. Of course this has been the conclusion of some papers since 2015, but a quick search on PubMed gave me more results than I thought. It's really scary. Ray did say specifically that finasteride does a lot more than just mess up with 5-ar, and to reverse the effects it takes a strong push in the other direction. I suspect thyroid, pregnenolone and a great diet would help but you would probably need some form of really powerful medication to reset the neurological effects of finasteride.

Spironolactone and cyproterone acetate also increase plasma progesterone, but they seem to also negatively affect estrogen, cortisol, aldosterone and prolactin (effect on estrogen and prolactin less clear with spiro though). And some of the older publications couldn't even find adverse effects in men with spironolactone (which truly seems the safest of the bunch, contrary to my initial thoughts). Cyproterone acetate seems to be even more potent than spiro, but for some reason (maybe I shouldn't be surprised) it is not available on its own in the U.S. (I think because of its anti-estrogen effect). I think it is only available when paired with synthetic estrogen in medications like Diane35.

Of course, I'm not recommending either, but since spironolactone and cyproterone are both direct progesterone-derivates and have both seen instances of documented complete reversal of baldness, even in elderly people, it seems to be clear that doing everything possible to increase endogenous progesterone with optimal thyroid function is needed. Exogenous progesterone probably doesn't act in a predictable way in situations of stress, it can even serve to increase DHT in some people (which is totally against common perception). It's probably better to supply lots of pregnenolone and let the thyroid be the conductor, which will tend to increase progesterone, and lower estrogen, cortisol, aldosterone and prolactin, which is the goal. That being said, I'm sure topical progesterone on the scalp 2x a week as mentioned by Georgi is helpful too and might accelerate/improve recovery rate.

 

[Broco6679]

@Broco6679

You were totally right.

I've been doing some digging and it seems post-finasteride patients have higher plasma progesterone, but lower cerebrospinal progesterone vs. controls. Along with the vast majority of neurological symptoms from the deranged 5-alpha and lack of allopregnanolone. It seems like the progesterone just stays there, and can't be metabolized further. And thus (someone corrected my initial ideas on this) finasteride indeed doesn't seem to affect aldosterone, cortisol in a positive way.

Honestly, I've been comparing finasteride with spironolactone and cyproterone acetate, and it seems finasteride is much, much worse and dangerous than the 2 others, with no evidence of better success. All of the scientific papers I'm seeing seem to be stating that the neurological changes caused by finasteride are seemingly irreversible. Of course this has been the conclusion of some papers since 2015, but a quick search on PubMed gave me more results than I thought. It's really scary. Ray did say specifically that finasteride does a lot more than just mess up with 5-ar, and to reverse the effects it takes a strong push in the other direction. I suspect thyroid, pregnenolone and a great diet would help but you would probably need some form of really powerful medication to reset the neurological effects of finasteride.

Spironolactone and cyproterone acetate also increase plasma progesterone, but they seem to also negatively affect estrogen, cortisol, aldosterone and prolactin (effect on estrogen and prolactin less clear with spiro though). And some of the older publications couldn't even find adverse effects in men with spironolactone (which truly seems the safest of the bunch, contrary to my initial thoughts). Cyproterone acetate seems to be even more potent than spiro, but for some reason (maybe I shouldn't be surprised) it is not available on its own in the U.S. (I think because of its anti-estrogen effect). I think it is only available when paired with synthetic estrogen in medications like Diane35.

Of course, I'm not recommending either, but since spironolactone and cyproterone are both direct progesterone-derivates and have both seen instances of documented complete reversal of baldness, even in elderly people, it seems to be clear that doing everything possible to increase endogenous progesterone with optimal thyroid function is needed. Exogenous progesterone probably doesn't act in a predictable way in situations of stress, it can even serve to increase DHT in some people (which is totally against common perception). It's probably better to supply lots of pregnenolone and let the thyroid be the conductor, which will tend to increase progesterone, and lower estrogen, cortisol, aldosterone and prolactin, which is the goal. That being said, I'm sure topical progesterone on the scalp 2x a week as mentioned by Georgi is helpful too and might accelerate/improve recovery rate.

I've read the same studies you are mentioning, and agree with everything you have said. Unfortunately, Danny Roddy now believes that finasteride having progesterone-like effects, as well as directly increasing serum prog, has nothing to do with it's ability to regrow hair.

I watched his 'I was wrong about Propeica' video few months back, and he now seems set on fin's hair regrowth mechanism being solely related to the removal of DHT leaving nitric oxide synthase activity unopposed, thus increasing nitric oxide to supraphysiological levels. There is a good amount of data supporting this idea:

Castration increases and androgens decrease nitric oxide synthase activity in the brain: Physiologic implications.

Circulating nitric oxide levels increase after anti-androgen treatment in male-to-female transsexuals.

The effect of androgen on nitric oxide synthase in the male reproductive tract of the rat.

The Expression of Inducible Nitric Oxide Synthase (iNOS) in the Testis and Epididymis of Rats With a Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) Deficiency.

He also believes that this is the same way Minoxidil acts, as it is reportedly a nitric oxide 'agonist'.

NO is a potent vasodialator, and can act to increase the delivery of oxygen and nutrients to tissues when the production of the primary, first line vasodialator carbon dioxide has failed. It is incredibly effective for rapidly reducing tissue hypoxia, which is why nitroglycerin is given to patients admitted to hospital for heart failure. I actually wrote my masters thesis about this very topic, mainly focusing on how the translocation of nNOS from the sarcoplasmic reticulum to the cell membrane improves survival rate during ischemic heart failure by avoiding calcium overload. I can see how supraphysiological levels could support hair growth in the presence of metabolic downregulation, but it isn't safe, protective, or even desired in the long term.

I think this is a good explanation for why finasteride can halt hairloss for 5-10 years in those with slow progression. The increase in nitric oxide can somewhat override the tissue hypoxia seen in mpb, but since it does nothing to address the actual underlying cause, even this will eventually fail as the underlying pathology continues to worsen. It also explains why those who have particularly aggressive loss - the dude's who are just too 'sensitive' to the mpb gene, as the forums say - don't see much benefit from fin, because the extent of their metabolic downregulation, and thus tissue hypoxia, is too large for supraphysiological levels of NO to overcome.

I can understand why he switched to this line of thinking, but to completely disregard all of fin's pro-progesterone effects in favor of this approach is silly, in my opinion. I think both factors likely play a role.

 

[mrchibbs]

@Broco6679

I actually wrote my masters thesis about this very topic, mainly focusing on how the translocation of nNOS from the sarcoplasmic reticulum to the cell membrane improves survival rate during ischemic heart failure by avoiding calcium overload.

I must say I thoroughly enjoy your posts, and our conversations. The fact that you have academic experience in biochemistry explains much of your eloquence and knowledge on this topic.

For what it's worth, Danny asked Ray about finasteride's underlying mechanisms in his latest interview on YouTube, so I don't think he's dead set on anything. It's been my experience with Danny that he's really started to emulate a lot of Ray's better qualities: humbleness. He's conscious of a lot more than he lets on, and a quick way to see that is just to look at the marvellous articles he was writing on hair loss as far back as 7 years ago (including his very well written book, HLAF).

I have a plan of writing a few articles on hair loss myself, since I've written a lot of about the topic already on this forum, I'd like to condense my ideas into a readable format. At the moment in fact I'm writing an article on a specific angle. If you're interested I'd love to send it to you for feedback/discussion.