Progest-e And Progestogenic [Danny Roddy]

dep

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Hi guys,

I wanted to clarify something here on this thread. According to Danny Roddy, finasteride works because it has an overall progestogenic affect on your body which I guess is anti estrogen. And this is why hair loss stops. Regrowth is seen in some cases because it increase NO - again according to Danny Roddy.

My question is, if that's the case then shouldn't progest-e be the cure for baldness as it's pure progesterone and therefore should halt baldness?? If that was truly the case then why have I not seen any improvement after 8/9 months on progest-e given finasteride is said to improve in around 3-6 months?

Thanks.
 

ExD

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Hi guys,

I wanted to clarify something here on this thread. According to Danny Roddy, finasteride works because it has an overall progestogenic affect on your body which I guess is anti estrogen. And this is why hair loss stops. Regrowth is seen in some cases because it increase NO - again according to Danny Roddy.

My question is, if that's the case then shouldn't progest-e be the cure for baldness as it's pure progesterone and therefore should halt baldness?? If that was truly the case then why have I not seen any improvement after 8/9 months on progest-e given finasteride is said to improve in around 3-6 months?

Thanks.

Why would you expect to see improvement?

I mean, from your understanding, what exactly is progest-e meant to do to fix the situation?
 

schultz

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finasteride works because it has an overall progestogenic affect on your body which I guess is anti estrogen.

I've heard that it is a 'progestin' and that is how it works. I don't know if it is true or not, but progesterone itself does a lot more than oppose estrogen. It has very broad protective, stabilizing, energy promoting effects. Progestins can have some of the effects progesterone has, but they can also have other negative effects. It's possible that they could have more of a progestogenic effect on specific areas in the body (I'm speculating) while also having anti-progesterone effects in other areas. This stuff is not carefully studied.

What is your dose of progest-e? Are you applying it topically or using it orally? You may need to correct some other variable to maximize the effect of the progesterone. At least for women, Ray usually recommends thyroid when a woman needs too much progesterone to feel anything.

If I was trying to regrow my hair I would probably apply progest-e topically and take it orally, 50mg + per day, as well as supplement T3. I'd probably crash my libido doing this but it would hopefully be temporary as I would try to taper down the progesterone once the hair started growing back (if it did) and then use a maintenance dose of under 10mg per day.

I took a large amount of progest-e the other week after getting sunburned. I applied at least 50mg topically on the burn and the following couple days my libido had basically disappeared. I've never noticed that effect so much before, but it's possible I took more than I thought. It's also possible the burn affected me I guess... Anyway, 1 or 2 drops of progest-e before bed usually has the opposite effect on me. It increases libido, nocturnal tumescence, pleasant dreams.

These are just my thoughts and experiences. I am not an expert.
 
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D

dep

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I've heard that it is a 'progestin' and that is how it works. I don't know if it is true or not, but progesterone itself does a lot more than oppose estrogen. It has very broad protective, stabilizing, energy promoting effects. Progestins can have some of the effects progesterone has, but they can also have other negative effects. It's possible that they could have more of a progestogenic effect on specific areas in the body (I'm speculating) while also having anti-progesterone effects in other areas. This stuff is not carefully studied.

What is your dose of progest-e? Are you applying it topically or using it orally? You may need to correct some other variable to maximize the effect of the progesterone. At least for women, Ray usually recommends thyroid when a woman needs too much progesterone to feel anything.

If I was trying to regrow my hair I would probably apply progest-e topically and take it orally, 50mg + per day, as well as supplement T3. I'd probably crash my libido doing this but it would hopefully be temporary as I would try to taper down the progesterone once the hair started growing back (if it did) and then use a maintenance dose of under 10mg per day.

I took a large amount of progest-e the other week after getting sunburned. I applied at least 50mg topically on the burn and the following couple days my libido had basically disappeared. I've never noticed that effect so much before, but it's possible I took more than I thought. It's also possible the burn affected me I guess... Anyway, 1 or 2 drops of progest-e before bed usually has the opposite effect on me. It increases libido, nocturnal tumescence, pleasant dreams.

These are just my thoughts and experiences. I am not an expert.

Thanks for the reply Schultz. I am taking cynoplus and cynomel and my body temperature in the morning on avg is 97.9 and later on it is about 98.3 after food etc. I also did a blood test after taking progest-e and my progesterone results shot up as expected. My point is I don't see any benefit from progesterone on hair health and therefore don't think it makes sense when Danny said finasteride has a progestogenic affect on the body. But you're right there could be other things progest-e is actually doing and I don't think anybody knows exactly what it does.
 
OP
D

dep

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Why would you expect to see improvement?

I mean, from your understanding, what exactly is progest-e meant to do to fix the situation?

Well given finasteride stops hair loss and Danny is saying it's having an overall progestogenic affect on the body my point here is that by that logic should actual progesterone from progest-e not also behave in the same manner and therefore stop hair loss? That's my point here.
 

ExD

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Well given finasteride stops hair loss and Danny is saying it's having an overall progestogenic affect on the body my point here is that by that logic should actual progesterone from progest-e not also behave in the same manner and therefore stop hair loss? That's my point here.

If finasteride stopped hair loss then it would be the cure for baldness, not progesterone, right? It definitely doesn't stop hair loss, or no one would be bald if they could afford finasteride, so logically even if progesterone behaved like finasteride, why would you assume it would stop hair loss?

It "might" slow it down, but then if one considers the mechanism through which finasteride operates (inhibiting DHT conversion) that help is relative. I think there is a strong argument that increased scalp DHT (anti inflammatory) is a result of chronic inflammation caused by tension around the head/neck, and while progesterone may inhibit some of the body's natural response to this tension and reduce local DHT, the systemic effects of inhibiting DHT may infact increase the tension that lead to inflammation in the first place, undermining any benefits you get from fin/progesterone.

Just theory, obviously - but the point is that assuming progesterone will cure hair loss because someone said it worked similarly to finasteride is a huge leap of faith when one looks at the efficacy and potential side effects of finasteride in the first place.
 

JoeKool

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I’ll throw my .02 to ensure you or anyone considers taking finasteride.

Finasteride starts off as synthetic progesterone in the lab and is then altered to have a high affinity to the 5AR, more so than progesterone already has. Fin’s use case is to inhibit 5ar with a once daily pill. Taking progesterone will also inhibit 5AR but at what level, I don’t know. You can find studies showing prog’s 5ARi effects which is most likely why finasteride starts off as synthetic prog.

Still, examples of anabolic steroids Deca & Tren are progesterone based and one wouldn’t equate “Why isn’t my topical progesterone cream working the same as Tren?”

Not trying to be offensive, just saying the lab has altered prog to be fin, so prog is not going to have the same effect as fin, though in this case, could be similar.

Finally, never take finasteride nor dutasteride nor saw palmetto. Never...
 

mrchibbs

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Hi guys,

I wanted to clarify something here on this thread. According to Danny Roddy, finasteride works because it has an overall progestogenic affect on your body which I guess is anti estrogen. And this is why hair loss stops. Regrowth is seen in some cases because it increase NO - again according to Danny Roddy.

My question is, if that's the case then shouldn't progest-e be the cure for baldness as it's pure progesterone and therefore should halt baldness?? If that was truly the case then why have I not seen any improvement after 8/9 months on progest-e given finasteride is said to improve in around 3-6 months?

Thanks.

Ok let's break this down.

1) Finasteride does not ''cure'' baldness. At the most it stops hair loss and gives an average 10% increase in hair count. We believe it's so effective because the marketing has been so good. Hardly a miracle drug:

''If response rate is defined as any improvement to hair thinning (slowed progression, arrest, or reversal), clinical studies suggest a response rate to finasteride of 80–90%. However, efficacy appears primarily limited to stopping AGA progression along with a 10% increase in hair count and some hair thickening in thinning regions." (English, 2018)

In many guys, there is no improvement whatsoever.

2) Oral progesterone is not as simple as you may think, it can increase 5-alpha-reductase and DHT, not reduce it. (And that's a good thing) Oral progesterone increases Testosterone and DHT

3) Simply taking exogenous progesterone and hoping to reverse existing hair loss is along the lines of the Pharma mindset of taking a pill to solve an illness. But hair loss is not an isolated problem, and you won't tackle it with isolated therapies. There won't be a ''cure'' for baldness.

4) Moreover, as mentioned earlier in this thread, finasteride is basically a patented, frankensteined version of progesterone. It has a lot of downsides which progesterone doesn't have, but its benefits may not even be related to the DHT lowering effect: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25049253/
That's why Danny thinks finasteride has at least some of the benefits of progesterone.
 
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Risingfire

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Hi guys,

I wanted to clarify something here on this thread. According to Danny Roddy, finasteride works because it has an overall progestogenic affect on your body which I guess is anti estrogen. And this is why hair loss stops. Regrowth is seen in some cases because it increase NO - again according to Danny Roddy.

My question is, if that's the case then shouldn't progest-e be the cure for baldness as it's pure progesterone and therefore should halt baldness?? If that was truly the case then why have I not seen any improvement after 8/9 months on progest-e given finasteride is said to improve in around 3-6 months?

Thanks.
Theoretically, progesterone in larger doses should work. That being said, as a man it comes with quite the downside.
 

haidut

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Hi guys,

I wanted to clarify something here on this thread. According to Danny Roddy, finasteride works because it has an overall progestogenic affect on your body which I guess is anti estrogen. And this is why hair loss stops. Regrowth is seen in some cases because it increase NO - again according to Danny Roddy.

My question is, if that's the case then shouldn't progest-e be the cure for baldness as it's pure progesterone and therefore should halt baldness?? If that was truly the case then why have I not seen any improvement after 8/9 months on progest-e given finasteride is said to improve in around 3-6 months?

Thanks.

I don't think the exact effects of finasteride are fully known but the fact that blocking estrogen completely restores hair-growth has already been published in peer-reviewed journals. I think the rise in DHT observed in balding people is simply adaptive but medicine jumped on this "symptom" and called it a cause since they already had a drug to sell (finasteride), which was approved for prostate issues and the pharma industry wanted a bigger market with blockbuster potential. Baldness is exactly such a market. The rest is history and...marketing :):
Baldness gets thin explanation Hair: Researchers agree on how hair grows but have yet to discover the definitive reason for male-patterned baldness.
"...The latest debate erupted last year when Dr. Robert Smart, a researcher at North Carolina State University, reported that the female hormone estrogen harmed hair follicle growth, and hence played a role in baldness. Published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Smart's research entailed clipping off the hair of three groups of mice. One group then was coated with a chemical that arrested hair growth for a prolonged period. Two control groups received chemicals that had a minimal effect. When Smart treated the denuded skin of the first group with an estrogen-blocking drug, their hair follicles responded. Within 10 weeks, the mice produced coats so thick they were indistinguishable from untreated mice. Smart says the estrogen blocker prevented normal estrogen stimulation and hair growth was the result."

The anti-estrogen used in the study above was Fulvestrant (ICI-182780) and just twice weekly topical application was enough to restore hair growth to control levels. After 12 weeks of treatment ALL bald mice had hair-growth restored to control levels.
Fulvestrant - Wikipedia

Progesterone is a the main endogenous estrogen antagonist and works similarly to Fulvestrant. Other estrogen antagonists such as (gasp!) DHT and even aromatase inhibitors such as exemestane may/should also work.

@Risingfire
 
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Risingfire

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I don't think the exact effects of finasteride are fully known but the fact that blocking estrogen completely restores hair-growth has already been published in peer-reviewed journals. I think the rise in DHT observed in balding people is simply adaptive but medicine jumped on this "symptom" and called it a cause since they already had a drug to sell (finasteride), which was approved for prostate issues and the pharma industry wanted a bigger market with blockbuster potential. Baldness is exactly such a market. The rest is history and...marketing :):
Baldness gets thin explanation Hair: Researchers agree on how hair grows but have yet to discover the definitive reason for male-patterned baldness.
"...The latest debate erupted last year when Dr. Robert Smart, a researcher at North Carolina State University, reported that the female hormone estrogen harmed hair follicle growth, and hence played a role in baldness. Published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Smart's research entailed clipping off the hair of three groups of mice. One group then was coated with a chemical that arrested hair growth for a prolonged period. Two control groups received chemicals that had a minimal effect. When Smart treated the denuded skin of the first group with an estrogen-blocking drug, their hair follicles responded. Within 10 weeks, the mice produced coats so thick they were indistinguishable from untreated mice. Smart says the estrogen blocker prevented normal estrogen stimulation and hair growth was the result."

The anti-estrogen used in the study above was Fulvestrant (ICI-182780) and just twice weekly topical application was enough to restore hair growth to control levels. After 12 weeks of treatment ALL bald mice had hair-growth restored to control levels.
Fulvestrant - Wikipedia

Progesterone is a the main endogenous estrogen antagonist and works similarly to Fulvestrant. Other estrogen antagonists such as (gasp!) DHT and even aromatase inhibitors such as exemestane may/should also work.

@Risingfire
Thanks @haidut. Based on failed attempted of taking DHT in the past, I took your suggestion to add pregnenolone and progesterone. I felt very good on it. I understand why pro athletes take downstream steroids. Athletically, I felt amazing but I'm assuming I consuming enough calories. At night, I would experience adrenaline zaps so I took a break. I'm going to reduce the dosage(I was taking large, unphysiological doses) and give it a second try. That being said I've been rubbing progesterone on my head for regrowth and it seems like I'm gaining hair. I'll report back
 

Broco6679

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Thanks for the reply Schultz. I am taking cynoplus and cynomel and my body temperature in the morning on avg is 97.9 and later on it is about 98.3 after food etc. I also did a blood test after taking progest-e and my progesterone results shot up as expected. My point is I don't see any benefit from progesterone on hair health and therefore don't think it makes sense when Danny said finasteride has a progestogenic affect on the body. But you're right there could be other things progest-e is actually doing and I don't think anybody knows exactly what it does.

What was your progesterone level on progest-e and how much were you taking?
 

mrchibbs

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Thanks for the reply Schultz. I am taking cynoplus and cynomel and my body temperature in the morning on avg is 97.9 and later on it is about 98.3 after food etc. I also did a blood test after taking progest-e and my progesterone results shot up as expected. My point is I don't see any benefit from progesterone on hair health and therefore don't think it makes sense when Danny said finasteride has a progestogenic affect on the body. But you're right there could be other things progest-e is actually doing and I don't think anybody knows exactly what it does.

It's not a stretch for finasteride to have progestognenic effects...especially since it is made directly from the progesterone molecule.
 

Arnold Grape

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@haidut do you think it would be fairly safe to rub in 8-10 drops of cortinon on your scalp daily for regrowth?
Do not do this! While it may make you think clearly afte the first application that is a lot of DHEA and progesterone you will be putting on your head, which will not make your hair grow. (Also. Don’t you think people would have previously reported that rubbing prog on their heads regrew hair if that were the case? It does not do this.)
 

Sheik

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I think Danny's explanation is just an attempt to rationalize finasteride working. It probably works by reducing DHT. Let's be real.
 

mrchibbs

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I think Danny's explanation is just an attempt to rationalize finasteride working. It probably works by reducing DHT. Let's be real.

I don't think so. Valerie Randall (a well known hair researcher) had a paper where she showed that applying DHT to the scalp causes hair to regrow (not completely obviously). Travis (the old amazing member of this forum) had posts about that. Testosterone was applied to the scalp of bald men by Papa & Klingman in 1965, and it regrew hair (not much but about 10%) on a completely bald men.

Balding guys have lower DHT, lower testosterone, higher estrogen, higher prolactin, high parathyroid etc. The only thing which is different is elevated DHEAs from the adrenals, which leads to more DHT being synthesized in inflamed tissues as a process of repair (which remains incomplete). DHT is found in inflamed tissues all over the body, is it the cause of the inflammation? Nope in fact it is an adaptive measure to heal from the inflammation. Saying DHT causes hair loss would be the same as saying DHEA causes stress.

Finasteride leads to a 10% increase in hair count, on average (Rob English, 2018), not more, simply because it doesn't reverse the fibrotic conditions in the scalp. Castrating men (and therefore removing DHT) does not result in regrowth either. Topical progesterone was used as a treatment for MPB before Finasteride (Tromovitch, 1985)

Age groups with highest progesterone (children and pregnant women) have the most luxuriant hair. PCOS and MPB are both progesterone deficiencies, in both sexes.

Bottomline, the entire DHT theory was invented from scratch by Merck to sell finasteride. They don't even understand how finasteride works, some members on this forum have posted studies about lesser-known effects of finasteride, namely that it acts as antibiotic in the gut and can remove candida.

It is a frankensteined form of progesterone, much like cyproterone acetate, and spironolactone. In a few rare cases, each of these drugs have all been shown to produce massive regrowth. They have a variety of effects, on aldosterone for example. In most cases, they don't lead to regrowth. The bottomline is they're all built from progesterone itself.

It was fraudulent science, based on the idea that somehow hair follicles were genetically programmed (no such thing) to be sensitive to DHT. Which they are not. What the evidence shows is that there is inflammation, microvascular deficiency and neuromuscular tension all around the scalp region, and that is driven by the endocrine system going awry which is driven by thyroid dysfunction and ultimately by stress.

Regarding topical DHEA/Progesterone. It is a useful adjunct to a wider therapy. No one should expect to slab some on their scalp once in a while and regrow their entire hair with no effort at all. Sadly that's the pharma mentality of one medication for a symptom, which we have all been infected with.
 
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Devan

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I’ll throw my .02 to ensure you or anyone considers taking finasteride.

Finasteride starts off as synthetic progesterone in the lab and is then altered to have a high affinity to the 5AR, more so than progesterone already has. Fin’s use case is to inhibit 5ar with a once daily pill. Taking progesterone will also inhibit 5AR but at what level, I don’t know. You can find studies showing prog’s 5ARi effects which is most likely why finasteride starts off as synthetic prog.

Still, examples of anabolic steroids Deca & Tren are progesterone based and one wouldn’t equate “Why isn’t my topical progesterone cream working the same as Tren?”

Not trying to be offensive, just saying the lab has altered prog to be fin, so prog is not going to have the same effect as fin, though in this case, could be similar.

Finally, never take finasteride nor dutasteride nor saw palmetto. Never...

Hey JoeKool, I've read all the negative literature and comments on finasteride and Minoxidol for years. Tried everything to help my receding hair and also just heal my body with all its chronic issues. One of them being that I would wake up 5 to 6 times to pee. Long story short I finally said **** it 3 months ago and started taking propecia, some herbal prostate formulas and also using topical minoxidil and I not only have seen significant hair regrowth but also don't wake up any more to pee. I'm afraid it will come back to bite me in the **** but what does one do when nothing else seems to be helping or working?
 

mrchibbs

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Hey JoeKool, I've read all the negative literature and comments on finasteride and Minoxidol for years. Tried everything to help my receding hair and also just heal my body with all its chronic issues. One of them being that I would wake up 5 to 6 times to pee. Long story short I finally said **** it 3 months ago and started taking propecia, some herbal prostate formulas and also using topical minoxidil and I not only have seen significant hair regrowth but also don't wake up any more to pee. I'm afraid it will come back to bite me in the **** but what does one do when nothing else seems to be helping or working?

You're not the first, won't be the last.

The Dark Side of 5α-Reductase Inhibitors' Therapy: Sexual Dysfunction, High Gleason Grade Prostate Cancer and Depression
 

JoeKool

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Hey @Devan, I feel for you brother but, hate to say it, you’re much more likely trading one issue for another. I don’t know your full story but , anything that I can say, I would highly recommend nothing is worth what finasteride did to me. Shrunken penis, brain fog, depression... all of which is pretty much behind me after my 6 month hcg protocol but I’d trade anything to have been warned of finasteride before trying it, twice in fact.

I can’t stress enough, after all I did... all the money I spent... the research, the wasted years... all for hair... disgusted with myself but I’m here to help anyone dealing with this crash and dissuading anyone from using it. So please come off and never look back.

I assume you’ve been pointed to your prostate as being the cause of the nighttime urination issues, have you tried prostate massages every other day? This may relieve pressure over time and I’m not joking, I know it sounds odd.

Other PC muscle or pudendal nerve stretches may increase that area’s strength. I truly don’t know what may help but it can’t be worth what finasteride will end up doing. I’m sorry for what you’re dealing with , but please note, it’s not safe to use finasteride. It’s used in M2F transition, in other countries. Horrible
 

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