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Haidut's Recent Comments On Estrogen's Role In Hairloss

Discussion in 'Hair & Nails' started by Broco6679, May 16, 2020.

  1. Broco6679

    Broco6679 Member

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    In today's livestream Georgi and Roddy talked a lot about hairloss, specifically estrogen's (proposed) causative role. Georgi also talked about the side effects many people get when taking ai's like exemestane and anastrozole. For those who don't have time to watch the video, here are some of Georgi's comments (not direct quotes as I had to cut out a lot of unnecessary words to keep it short. The general points remain the same)

    Georgi on aromatase inhibitors causing hairloss as proof for estrogen being a 'hair healthy' hormone:

    "There is not a single aromatase inhibitor that is specific for aromatase. All of them actually end up also lowering progesterone."

    "The studies showed that it is the level of expression of the estorgen receptor in the scalp specifically that was responsible for the hairloss. When they administer estrogen systemically, it did not have the hair loss effects that it had when they applied it topically. So, the aromatase inhibitor they are taking is dropping estrogen systemically [a few inaudible words due to an internet issue], but that doesn't mean much about your scalp."

    "It's the whole dichotomy between blood levels [of estrogen] and tissue levels, and specifically in stressed tissues such as a scalp losing hair. So, if your thyroid is low we have already talked about this before, your skin will pick up the slack and start producing all of these steroids. There are a few studies that actually looked at the hormone in the scalp. Estrogen and Prolactin were both high. For whatever reason, yes, DHT was also high, but somehow the medical industry took that partial finding and started running with it while completely ignoring that other hormones. Estrogenic hormones were also high."

    "And again, nobody so far has proven conclusively that dht causes hairloss. I know people who have actually massaged masterone, dht, proviron, and a bunch of other dht-derived drugs on their scalp, and some of them actually started regrowing hair. It didn't work in many people, maybe only 20%, but none of them lost more hair. It's totally anecdotal and doesn't have statistical significance, but that would be my response to people saying everyone knows aromatase inhibitors cause hairloss. Show me a selective aromatase inhibitor that does nothing else other than inhibiting aromatase, and lets see if it causes hairloss or not. To my knowledge, there is no such aromatase inhibitor on the market."

    "We had this discussion a little bit on the forum, because people were saying "oh, if estrogen is not important for the bones, howcome when I take an aromatase inhibitor I get joint pains, like my bones are cracking, all these studies showing bones are thinning"; again, you have not covered the fact that it [aromatase inhibitors] lowers pregnenolone, lowers progesterone, and lowers dhea as well."

    "The different enzymes, both the ones that synthesis estrogen from precursors, and the other steroids that synthesize progesterone and dhea, are very similar in structure. It's very hard to develop something that is so uniquely specific to aromatase without touching other steroids and steroidal pathways."

    "Ironically, progesterone maybe one of the most selective aromatase inhibitors out there. There are people taking progesterone who have managed to tank their estrogen, specifically using progesterone as an aromatase inhibitor, like women that didn't care about tanking their testosterone, or whatever other reason men are scared of taking progesterone. None of them got bone pain, none of them got cracking bones, none of them got osteopenia; in fact, their bones improved."

    "All of these side effects that people blame on the too low estrogen from aromatase inhibitors, to me the evidence for that is lacking. If anything, we can say that non selective aromatase inhibitor cause issues, but to blame it completely on the lack of estrogen, I don't think there's evidence for that."

    "What was the other thing? Oh yes, people getting treated with estrogen [who subsequently regrow hair]. I looked at those studies. Most of them are about people doing transgender, basically switching genders, and I think in the vast majority of cases these people got a combination treatment of a progestin and estrogen. The reason for this is the vast majority of cases [gender transition], if not all of them, wasn't very popular in the 20th century, all the way up to the early 90's. By that point medicine has already realized that giving people only estrogen is very, very dangerous. So, you'll be hard pressed to find transgender studies that only use estrogen. If you find one and show me that this led to hair regrowth I'll consider it; but so far, the only studies I have seen always had something else, either the person got estrogen and testosterone, if it was a female to male; or basically, the person who was converting from male to female, they actually got castrated; keep in mind that actually drops estrogen..."

    Roddy:
    "and serotonin, and prolactin"

    Haidut:
    "That's right. So, the studies I have seen have not been able to isolate the estrogen as a cause of hair regrowth, and I don't believe it is. I don't know of a study that is well designed and has managed to isolate, to claim a cause. If you have such a study, please send it to me. I have looked at all of this, and almost all of them are progestin and estrogen. Or, male to female and they got castrated."

    There was also a lot of discussion about minoxidil after this for those interested.

    What are everyone's thoughts on these comments?

    Anecdotally, exemestane accelerated my already significant hairloss when I took it during my years on testosterone replacement therapy. I only used a small dose and my serum estradiol was always kept in the middle of the range (so not too low), but my progesterone was often undetectable. I had ~0.40 nmol/L progesterone on testosterone when not using exemstane, and my levels would drop to < 0.15 nmol/L (assay didn't go any lower) whenever I introduced it. The average progesterone level for a man is 1.23 nmol/L +/- 0.23, so both of my results were low, but exemestane took it lower.

    With that said, I've been off testosterone for a while now, and despite my progesterone levels rising to 1.4 nmol/L, my hair loss has continued at the same rate. Like most here I don't subscribe to the notion that DHT casues hairloss; but likewise, the comments Georgi made don't really address the fact that almost no man on this forum who has taken progesterone (and there has been many) has reported the halt or reversal of male pattern baldness. In many cases, this was also whilst taking thyroid and other estrogen inhibiting substances, like vitamin e, aspirin, vitamin K2 etc.

    Either way, I thinks it's great that both Danny and Georgi are offering an alternative view. Looking forward to hearing other's thoughts on these comments.
     
  2. Mauritio

    Mauritio Member

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    So the reason that theres obese men,high estrogen men with a full head of hair is that the estrogen receptor concentratation is so low in their scalp ?

    Btw such a weird thing how peaters use the receptor concept only when it suits their argumentation, just to deny that it exists when someone in main stream medicine talks about it .

    And speaking of estrogen and joints .
    I've been to nepal this year doing trekking. I had horrible joint pain in my feet and knees like never in my life before I had to use two sticks to walk . At some point I realized it always got worse when I took androsterone and got better if I didn't take it for a few days. But it only got like 80 % better in a matter of a few hours when I drank a ginger tea . Now ginger is estrogenic on paper and I always see more estrogenic symptoms when I drink it ,but it was the only thing that helped. I always was a non believer in estrogen is needed . This changed my mind . Also georgi said AIs dont lower estrogen but also progesterone ,I wonder what androsterone does to progesterone... i am pretty sure that andro caused and/or increased the joint pain so there must be something not joint friendly in androsterone.


    I also observed that men with a full head of hair often have little beard growth rarely a full beard (there are exceptions) . This supports the hypothesis that DHT is involved somehow, I just think their estrogen concentration is low enough (at some point in their life ) that the body doesnt need to compensate by releasing DHT . It must be during a certain period of time or it is genetic since they can accumulate high estrogen levels later in life and still not get hair loss ,which doesnt have to be a good thing . It might leave estrogen unopposed in the body.
    A friend of my family had a full head of hair with very thick hair and looked pretty young for his age ,he was around 75 , but he died of prostate cancer ,which we know is caused by high estrogen and cured by DHT...
     
  3. mrchibbs

    mrchibbs Member

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    I have to agree with you somewhat here. Relying on receptor theory to explain the argument seems like a stretch.

    Although your explanation regarding ginger being estrogenic misses the mark a little as well. It is anti-inflammatory, which probably explains the benefits you observed. It is a serotonin antagonist as well (speaking of receptors lol, it's the 5-HT3 specifically)

    The DHT idea is fraudulent for a simple reason: the elevated DHT is an adaptive measure to local inflammation, as it is involved in the process of repair. Men who bald have systematically lower testosterone, low thyroid, high estrogen, higher prolactin (and therefore higher serotonin because it is a proxy for serotonin levels which can't really be measured). The DHT is elevated because the DHEA is elevated via the adrenals, as an adaptive measure during stress. Moreover, androgens were applied topically in the 1960s and it regrew a little hair (i.e. did not cause hair loss)

    It shouldn't be a surprise that topical progesterone is not the magical cure for regrowing hair, because hair loss is not merely a localized problem. It's a serious sign of metabolic stress and Danny Roddy has accumulated enough evidence to make that case very clearly. In fact, topical progesterone was used as a treatment for hair loss with marginal effect until Finasteride came around. Finasteride, it bears reminding, leads to a 10% increase in hair count, on average. (Rob English, 2018 paper) That's not full reversal of anything. In some people with recent hair loss it does lead to great regrowth, much like cyproterone acetate or spironolactone, and the commonality in all three is that they're derived from progesterone.

    I think what's lost in the context of estrogen is that systematically, it seems to be involved in renewal, or growth processes, but locally it is also the catalyst for adverse processes, especially when it's chronically present. The research Georgi is talking about, has been mentioned by Ray before (in PMS to Menopause), where topical estrogen stops hair growth altogether. Ray described estrogen's effect, as akin to a fresh start or a ''reboot'' for biological processes. For instance, with low progesterone it leads to uncontrolled growth, as we see in cancers. I think estrogen has a punctual role in restarting growth, but it must naturally come down and be balanced by high levels of the other steroid hormones.

    This may be what explains the benefits experienced by SOME transgender people, taking estrogen and a progestin at the same time. The estrogen restarts the growth process, which is sustained by the progestins. In some cases it has lead to full reversal of pattern baldness, but in the majority of cases, it hasn't worked out that way. Possibly because the progestins are too low in the ratio most of the time. And as Georgi mentioned, there is no evidence of regrowth of hair on estrogen alone.

    So, a summary of some things which have been known to lead to full regrowth in the case of MPB; antihistamines, falling in a fireplace, spironolactone, cyproterone acetate, tom haggerty's scalp exercise, massage/stretching or wounding with healing.

    What is clear is that there is no genetically programmed hair loss, as several pathological changes to the scalp like neuromuscular tension, microvascular deficiency and fibrosis are present. It's hard (i.e. impossible) to argue that it's the genes causing this. Instead, as Danny has eloquently written over the years, it's a cascade of stress, low thyroid, serotonergic state which drives which prolactin and parathyroid which are both intimately linked to hair loss and calcification.

    And serotonin is the direct driver of all fibrosis. At some point, after years of this deleterious process, the scalp environment has degraded so much that new hair growth is significantly impaired on top. The guys who reverse this process, manage to undo this damage somehow, but every case is different, and it most situations it takes great effort and change first to stop the stressful factors which caused hair loss in the first place, and then to generate enough positive factors in your life to reverse the fibrosis in the scalp.
     
  4. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    Well, Georgi didn't use the "receptor concept." The only time he used the term (in the selected quotes) was when he was quoting a study. That being said, you don't need the receptor concept to distinguish between local tissue concentration and serum levels of a hormone. He distinguishes it in the very next paragraph-

    "It's the whole dichotomy between blood levels [of estrogen] and tissue levels, and specifically in stressed tissues such as a scalp losing hair. So, if your thyroid is low we have already talked about this before, your skin will pick up the slack and start producing all of these steroids. There are a few studies that actually looked at the hormone in the scalp. Estrogen and Prolactin were both high. For whatever reason, yes, DHT was also high, but somehow the medical industry took that partial finding and started running with it while completely ignoring that other hormones. Estrogenic hormones were also high."

    People could get stressed tissues in a particular area, while most other areas are relatively stress free. Strike the word "receptor" from the first line of your response, and that is more of what Haidut is saying-

    "So the reason that theres obese men,high estrogen men with a full head of hair is that the estrogen concentratation is so low in their scalp ?"
     
  5. Mauritio

    Mauritio Member

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    That wasn't specifically targeted towards georgi , I've seen it many times on the forum . Ots just a little confusing . And might be used as an a point of hypocrisy against it.
     
  6. Mauritio

    Mauritio Member

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    I know ,I know and I've thought about it as well . But it doesnt apply here ,I also took pregnenolone at the same time which is arguably at least as anti inflammatory as ginger in more than one way and it still didn't help ,also tried vitamin e ,anti biotics, magnesium ,androsterone all of which should be anti inflammatory and at least indirectly anti serotonin ... the best guess besides estrogen might be the 5ht3 antagonism but im still not sure .

    I mostly agree with you on the rest. I think calcification in the scalp is a big problem that doesnt get enough attention. So a good approach is to tackle the calcification with scalp massages/ exercises and of course vitamin k and stuff . But I can really recommend the scalp exercises by tom hagerty it's a lot of work but if you really want to keep and grow back your hair you'll be happy to do it imo ! Safed and is still saving my hair ...
     
  7. johnwester130

    johnwester130 Member

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    You are right that it is a combination of calcification and also fibrosis in the skin.

    But no one is mentioning the best way to reverse that - and that is using enzymes. Vitamin k2/d, taurine etc will not reverse it.
     
  8. Vladimir Erfán

    Vladimir Erfán Member

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    What enzymes? And how - topically?
     
  9. johnwester130

    johnwester130 Member

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    the proteolytic enzymes. somebody was using them and serrapeptase to treat third degree burns.

    in calcification, it begins with a bacteria,
    that forms a biofilm and then attracts minerals like calcium, magnesium and iron to it and it creates a "calcification".


    I wrote about it here.

    The Cause Of Calcification Is Nanobacteria - Not The Calcium

    I have never seen them used topically except for bromleain and papain in skin enzyme peels
     
  10. mrchibbs

    mrchibbs Member

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    Except that there is tons of evidence of taurine and other substances being able to reverse fibrotic tissues. Your ideas regarding enzymes are interesting nonetheless.
     
  11. johnwester130

    johnwester130 Member

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    depends on the definition of fibrosis. it is a word loosely thrown around.

    liver fibrosis was treated with taurine.

    people who wanted to treat scar tissue, burns and rejuventate the skin were using enzymes.
    Use both. eat the gelatin and also use enzymes for best results.
     
  12. ExD

    ExD Member

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    Is there any actual evidence for scar reduction in human trials? I've been interested in serrapeptase for years and big doses (400k iu multiple times a day) tend to improve my mood and sociability but that could be due to the anti-inflammatory effects rather than dissolving fibrin - I've heard Dr Wong talk about enzyme studies that have been censored or hidden but all I can find atm is that it dissolves scar tissue in the lab.
     
  13. mrchibbs

    mrchibbs Member

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    Massage/stretching has also been shown to restore hair growth after scalp burns. I agree though that fibrosis/calcification are words loosely thrown around.

    Don't know much about enzymes to be honest. I think anyone's best bet to undo fibrosis is mechanical stimulation/localized therapy, after thyroid and general health has improved. Massaging when inflammatory processes are still happening will probably worsen or at best not change anything.
     
  14. johnwester130

    johnwester130 Member

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    i haven't found any official studies. just lots of people on the internet using it for scars and repairing skin.

    the enzymes also seem to reverse calfication but I don't know the exact mechanism of how

    personally, i have taken taurine for over 2 years and didn't reverse my baldness, but it had stopped progressing.
    vitamin k2 and progresterone also may have stopped my hair loss progressing,

    but to actually reverse the damage and current fibrosis they didn't work for me
     
  15. mrchibbs

    mrchibbs Member

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    To be clear, I don't think anyone should expect to reverse baldness with isolated agents. It takes significant lifestyle changes to identify and remove the stressors (chronic lack of sunshine, abusive relationship, emotional stress) and then you need to get into a restorative state where the thyroid function starts to work again, basically a very involved process.

    Massage, in the right context, has been proven successful. The problem is the context, most people balding don't address the underlying causes, in part because I don't think many realize (not meaning you, don't know your story) that premature balding is a sign that they have a lot of metabolic deficiencies to compensate vs. other people who aren't balding.
     
  16. johnwester130

    johnwester130 Member

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    I disagree and here's why

    There's a well known study of a man who fell in a fireplace head first and reversed his baldness of 25 years. it burned the top of his head off and when it recovered he got his hair back
     
  17. mrchibbs

    mrchibbs Member

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    I mentioned it a few posts ago.
     
  18. Ableton

    Ableton Member

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    Which brings us back to severe damaging (dermarolling)
    This forum should have more members than any other forum dealing with mpb that fixed their underlying issues.
    Yet, little success stories, lets be honest here.
    Which is why I believe we need agressive wounding, basically like this guy that fell in the fireplace.i don’t think every 10 days is enough but who knows.
    It’s risky for those who still have hair to lose, as you can create even more fibrosis this way.
    And it’s no fun
    I do it every 3-4 days atm.
    Changes in scalp texture are undeniable. Longer vellus in temples.
    One ******* terminal hair appeared in my temples lol. One. At this rate I will have decent hair at eighty yrs
     
  19. Ras

    Ras Member

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    Just as I disregard diet advice when it comes from a fat person, I disregard Georgi when he talks about the causes of and treatments for alopecia.
     
  20. JDreamer

    JDreamer Member

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    Brought this up in another thread, but I don't think it's going to do you any good to simply wound your scalp, which is likely to lead to prolonged acute inflammation.

    It's got to be paired up with something else to actually ship the debris out of the scalp or to lyse it. The way to do that appears to be using proteolytic enzymes and then hopefully one day the source of the inflammatory reaction in the scalp could be determined.
     
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