Hair Loss: Scalp Massage, Aspirin And Prostaglandins

[Soren]

This is a very good presentation on energy dosage for light therapy. It is specifically about lasers but it applies for LEDs too.

http://www.laser.nu/lllt/pdf/theimpossibledose.pdf

 

[Soren]

Maybe @RedLightMan could say something with regards to dosage for hair growth? Is it 4-6 joules per centimetre squared or 67?

Or are they the same and its a differing of how they are measured?

 

[Soren]

An update with rega

Thanks for all the information guys. Recently, I started massage to break up the calcium dome. I take a lot of vitamin k. It is supposed take calcium out of the soft tissue and put it where it belongs (in the bones?) . I no longer have dental plaque and my joints don't creak as much as in the past.

I have 2 handheld LED devices. The first one that I purchased was only red light and did not have an internal fan. The heat from the LED's would build up after about 20 minutes so that I could use it against my skin for long periods of time. My second device (my go to device) has an internal fan and blue and yellow LEDs as well. Blue is good for acne. I have been using it for about 9 months. At the time, I thought the best prices and selection was at Hand Held LED units, Light Therapy panels, Infrared light therapy, LED ARRAYS 660nm and 850nm LEDs.

It use my device on my scalp, face, over an open mouth and over my chakras. Often I use it while surfing the web.

I take vitamin K too for the same reason but if I take too much I tend to get acne on my legs, yes it is meant to help with the proper utilization of calcium in the body.

Those LED devices you linked to are the same as the lower powered ones that are on Elixa.com. I actually have one of those in the form of an red, blue and near infrared light.

I use my high-powered one for my face, knees any place that needs rejuvenation from stress or injury.

 

[Soren]

An update with regards to my scalp massaging:

I recently received delivery of a new scalp massaging device that has helped invigorate my scalp more than anything else so far. I'm actually blown away by how much it took off the build up of stuff on my scalp. My hair afterwards was actually more full-bodied and looked thicker. It vibrates and can be a bit harsh if used too vigorously, but it does not pull my hair like other devices i've used before and I can really feel my scalp invigorated afterwards.

Here is a link to it: Scalp Massager
Be sure to have a look round for discount codes for it, there are plenty out there.

 

[RedLightMan]

Maybe @RedLightMan could say something with regards to dosage for hair growth? Is it 4-6 joules per centimetre squared or 67?

Or are they the same and its a differing of how they are measured?

Hi @Soren
The dosing of light isn't so well defined yet. The studies I've seen on hair growth specifically have been between 1j/cm² and about 70j/cm² - mostly using red wavelengths. There isn't a huge amount of quality human data. Some animal data points to infrared maybe being better, but there's no red/IR comparison in humans.

The 4-6J/cm² thing is the supposedly ideal dose for any cell. If you apply that dose to the body, it's the top 1mm of skin cells getting that dose, the deeper tissue like a hair follicle is getting a lower dose. Applying 70j/cm² to the skin could mean the hair follicle gets an ideal dose. You might want a 100-1000j/cm² dose for the thyroid or brain.

The whole thing is not too clear though and there are several other factors besides the j/cm² metric.
Thanks for the updates anyway, this is an informative thread.

 

[Soren]

Thanks for the info @RedLightMan.

Just an update with regards to the electronic scalp massager i've been using. It still works and is good but it definitely loses some of its firmness after a few uses. I'm still using it but am currently looking for something that retains its strength. I've just ordered another similar device that should arrive in a couple of weeks. I'll give an update once I've had a chance to use it.

Also if anyone knows of any scalp massaging tools or devices that are strong and really ex-foliate the scalp please feel free to share.

 

[m_arch]

Hi @Soren
The dosing of light isn't so well defined yet. The studies I've seen on hair growth specifically have been between 1j/cm² and about 70j/cm² - mostly using red wavelengths. There isn't a huge amount of quality human data. Some animal data points to infrared maybe being better, but there's no red/IR comparison in humans.

The 4-6J/cm² thing is the supposedly ideal dose for any cell. If you apply that dose to the body, it's the top 1mm of skin cells getting that dose, the deeper tissue like a hair follicle is getting a lower dose. Applying 70j/cm² to the skin could mean the hair follicle gets an ideal dose. You might want a 100-1000j/cm² dose for the thyroid or brain.

The whole thing is not too clear though and there are several other factors besides the j/cm² metric.
Thanks for the updates anyway, this is an informative thread.

Thanks for the response RLM! I'm also interested in the brain enhancing effects of LLLT.

One more question regarding your product... Based on your graphic:

Can you use the red light device directly on the skin, 0 cm away? How long would you do this for to achieve ~68 joules? Or 6 joules?
The table on your website listed hair regrowth as 10cm away for 6 minutes for ~68 joules per cm2.
I've read around the internet (so I definitely could be wrong!) but my understanding is that you want to press the red light device right up to your scalp to get the most benefit. And even from doing this, if you have dark hair or skin then you need to do about twice the dosage time to see effects.

However, it also seems like your device is infinitely more powerful than other devices. Is it too powerful to hold against the skin?
My hair is thick, so I question if any of the red light will make it through to my scalp if its shining from 10cm away.

Thanks

 

[RedLightMan]

Thanks for the response RLM! I'm also interested in the brain enhancing effects of LLLT.

One more question regarding your product... Based on your graphic:

Can you use the red light device directly on the skin, 0 cm away? How long would you do this for to achieve ~68 joules? Or 6 joules?
The table on your website listed hair regrowth as 10cm away for 6 minutes for ~68 joules per cm2.
I've read around the internet (so I definitely could be wrong!) but my understanding is that you want to press the red light device right up to your scalp to get the most benefit. And even from doing this, if you have dark hair or skin then you need to do about twice the dosage time to see effects.

However, it also seems like your device is infinitely more powerful than other devices. Is it too powerful to hold against the skin?
My hair is thick, so I question if any of the red light will make it through to my scalp if its shining from 10cm away.

Thanks

Hi @m_arch, it's possible to hold the red light device directly on the skin for short periods. The power density (light concentration) at that range is much higher than typically used in studies though. 'Pulsing' of a light device is the only type of treatment using higher densities.
Regarding hair, a lot of studies involve shaving the area first (or pressing a device right up against the scalp) but that's only necessary with weaker light sources. With a strong light source, just use for longer, closer, and move it (or your head) around a bit to get the light from different angles. You can use in front of a mirror to see how well it's penetrating. Don't worry too much about getting the exact joules of energy in, perhaps just experiment with longer times (10-30min+) depending on how thick/dark your hair is.

 

[Soren]

Hi @m_arch, it's possible to hold the red light device directly on the skin for short periods. The power density (light concentration) at that range is much higher than typically used in studies though. 'Pulsing' of a light device is the only type of treatment using higher densities.
Regarding hair, a lot of studies involve shaving the area first (or pressing a device right up against the scalp) but that's only necessary with weaker light sources. With a strong light source, just use for longer, closer, and move it (or your head) around a bit to get the light from different angles. You can use in front of a mirror to see how well it's penetrating. Don't worry too much about getting the exact joules of energy in, perhaps just experiment with longer times (10-30min+) depending on how thick/dark your hair is.

I've read before on forums that giving the hair follicle too much energy from LLLT puts them into a sort of a sleep mode by which they won't grow. Although that is with lasers not leds which do have a slightly different affect. Do you have any thoughts on the validity of this claim?

 

[RedLightMan]

I've read before on forums that giving the hair follicle too much energy from LLLT puts them into a sort of a sleep mode by which they won't grow. Although that is with lasers not leds which do have a slightly different affect. Do you have any thoughts on the validity of this claim?

Yeah it's possible. You can overstimulate cells, more isn't always better. It's likely that the very top layer of skin is overstimulated if you're applying large doses (for penetration to the brain or muscles, etc). It's not clear what's going on when cells are overstimulated. It's thought that reactive oxygen species and transcription factors have something to do with it.
So it's good to be in the right dose range by using a reasonable power density of light for a reasonable time. The 68 j/cm2 dose for hair from studies is a good starting point but the ideal dose is probably different for everyone.

 

[johnwester130]

I'm either delusional, or body dysmorphic (many balding men are) ,
or I am regrowing my balding hair and genuinely seeing new hairs.

My regimen is simple

D3 - 8,000iu
Vitamin a -
vitamin k2

the main 5 b vitamins , b1, b2, b3, b6, b7 , in activated form too
oxidal

androsterone
t3/t4
pregneneolone

zinc
and taurine

Red light helmet


Basic peat diet,
milk, cheese,
fruit,
coffee/cocoa,
coconut oil,
potatoes, meat/ liver, gelatin,
sugar and salt as needed

 

[Richiebogie]

Well done @johnwester130

Did you use any topical chemicals or do any head massaging?

I have heard onion juice is good! Maybe it breaks up some bad crust and stimulates the hair follicles! (It might stimulate your work colleagues at least!)

 

[johnwester130]

Well done @johnwester130

Did you use any topical chemicals or do any head massaging?

I have heard onion juice is good! Maybe it breaks up some bad crust and stimulates the hair follicles! (It might stimulate your work colleagues at least!)

just red light topically

 

[Progesterone]

just red light topically

Which device do you use?

 

[Progesterone]

I've read before on forums that giving the hair follicle too much energy from LLLT puts them into a sort of a sleep mode by which they won't grow. Although that is with lasers not leds which do have a slightly different affect. Do you have any thoughts on the validity of this claim?

Hi Soren,

Any updates on your hair battle?

 

[Soren]

Going well. Hair has gone from brittle and frizzy to normal and have new terminal hairs on temples and scalp elasticity has greatly improved. Will give a more detailed update soon.

 

[Progesterone]

Going well. Hair has gone from brittle and frizzy to normal and have new terminal hairs on temples and scalp elasticity has greatly improved. Will give a more detailed update soon.

Wow, awesome!

Thanks, we would all love to hear a detailed update and your detailed regimen :)

 

[JDreamer]

I'm either delusional, or body dysmorphic (many balding men are) ,
or I am regrowing my balding hair and genuinely seeing new hairs.

Significant growth that other people would notice or just enough to keep consistent with the regimen for now?

 

[johnwester130]

Significant growth that other people would notice or just enough to keep consistent with the regimen for now?

I think in a month, when the new hairs grow out, people would notice them.

 

[Scenes]

I think in a month, when the new hairs grow out, people would notice them.

@johnwester130 so what are you doing that's making the difference?