Progest-e And Progestogenic [Danny Roddy]

[Risingfire]

Do not do this! While it may make you think clearly afte the first application that is a lot of DHEA and progesterone you will be putting on your head, which will not make your hair grow. (Also. Don’t you think people would have previously reported that rubbing prog on their heads regrew hair if that were the case? It does not do this.)

People have reported progesterone working. It has side effects with men

 

[Scenes]

People have reported progesterone working. It has side effects with men

Recently I’ve been using progesterone topically and it’s working great with no sides. Been about 2-3 weeks. If anything, my junk is bigger. Little bit of pregnenolone with it.

 

[dep]

Thank you all for your replies and thanks for engaging here. But I honestly think there's a lot of fear mongering going on both sides and ultimately it comes down to the person to analyse all the info and try to apply it to their life.
I like Danny's out of box thinking when it comes to baldness and appreciate some areas that he has exposed us to such as the role of prolactin that is never even considered. However, there is not enough evidence to show that the protocol he advocates actually regrows lost hair or stops hair loss in its tracks. I've tried it from personal experience and have not seen improvement. However, I intend to keep going to reach the ideal prolactin and tsh values however I doubt that will be effective because to encourage growth of hair one must sustain that balance for a long time before seeing any results and that is something that is very difficult to do if you're working 9-5 and going through life normally.
I do believe there is a clear genetic influence in baldness and Danny calls this susceptibility to stress that is passed down from previous generations and the mainstream calls this susceptibility to DHT. It also cannot be denied that there is enough evidence that suggests minoxidil and finasteride result in regrowth/stopping of hair loss. I don't think it's possible to expect to see results without external intervention therefore I believe we need to experiment ourselves and see what brings us the most results and I intend to do this carefully through monitoring using regular blood tests.
I like all these studies people post and find it interesting to read but I think these just look good and don't tend to translate into real results for people.

 

[mrchibbs]

Most of the guys researching this topic have tried minox and/or fin. Most stop at some point, because of extremely unpleasant side effects.

You can choose to do what you want, but I think there is more than enough evidence that i) using Danny’s research can allow you to stop hair loss ii) a sensible massage approach can undo the fibrotic changes in the scalp. There are plenty of pictures on Rob English’s website and I do each of those guys solved their underlying health problems before they saw regrowth from the massages.

You can be positive and proactive with your life and apply a sound approach to fixing your health problems and balding or you can take drugs which in all likelihood will not lead to satisfying regrowth, along with potentially nasty effects. Your choice. There are no protocols, its only Perceive, Think, Act

 

[Broco6679]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned re: finasteride being progestinic is that progesterone itself is reduced by 5ar.

I'm not sure if there's been a paper investigating this, but finasteride's pro-progesterone effects may be because it increases serum progesterone directly by inhibiting it's reduction to 5a-DHP.

This would leave you with the pro-hair effects of elevated serum progesterone, without many of the other positive effects seen when taking exogenous prog because it's downstream metabolites are suppressed. Many of progesterone's beneficial effects come from it's conversion to 5a-DHP, and subsequently allopregnanolone, because of the latter's potent GABA-A agonism. This reduction in allopreg is postulated as the cause for fin-induced brain fog, depression and anxiety.

So fin might increase serum prog which is beneficial for hair, whilst simultaneously reducing systemic progestin activity - hence the side effects (and ofc the heavy suppression of dht plays a big role, too).

 

[DhtAssassin]

There used to be forums called 'stopage' people tried progesterone and had no results with it.

 

[DhtAssassin]

I don't think so. Valerie Randall (a well known hair researcher) had a paper where she showed that applying DHT to the scalp causes hair to regrow (not completely obviously). Travis (the old amazing member of this forum) had posts about that. Testosterone was applied to the scalp of bald men by Papa & Klingman in 1965, and it regrew hair (not much but about 10%) on a completely bald men.

Balding guys have lower DHT, lower testosterone, higher estrogen, higher prolactin, high parathyroid etc. The only thing which is different is elevated DHEAs from the adrenals, which leads to more DHT being synthesized in inflamed tissues as a process of repair (which remains incomplete). DHT is found in inflamed tissues all over the body, is it the cause of the inflammation? Nope in fact it is an adaptive measure to heal from the inflammation. Saying DHT causes hair loss would be the same as saying DHEA causes stress.

Finasteride leads to a 10% increase in hair count, on average (Rob English, 2018), not more, simply because it doesn't reverse the fibrotic conditions in the scalp. Castrating men (and therefore removing DHT) does not result in regrowth either. Topical progesterone was used as a treatment for MPB before Finasteride (Tromovitch, 1985)

Age groups with highest progesterone (children and pregnant women) have the most luxuriant hair. PCOS and MPB are both progesterone deficiencies, in both sexes.

Bottomline, the entire DHT theory was invented from scratch by Merck to sell finasteride. They don't even understand how finasteride works, some members on this forum have posted studies about lesser-known effects of finasteride, namely that it acts as antibiotic in the gut and can remove candida.

It is a frankensteined form of progesterone, much like cyproterone acetate, and spironolactone. In a few rare cases, each of these drugs have all been shown to produce massive regrowth. They have a variety of effects, on aldosterone for example. In most cases, they don't lead to regrowth. The bottomline is they're all built from progesterone itself.

It was fraudulent science, based on the idea that somehow hair follicles were genetically programmed (no such thing) to be sensitive to DHT. Which they are not. What the evidence shows is that there is inflammation, microvascular deficiency and neuromuscular tension all around the scalp region, and that is driven by the endocrine system going awry which is driven by thyroid dysfunction and ultimately by stress.

Regarding topical DHEA/Progesterone. It is a useful adjunct to a wider therapy. No one should expect to slab some on their scalp once in a while and regrow their entire hair with no effort at all. Sadly that's the pharma mentality of one medication for a symptom, which we have all been infected with.

I can't find any studies which would agree with you. However, I can find many who claim the opposite - androgens are elevated in men with MPB.


Serum Levels of Androgen-Associated Hormones Are Correlated with Curative Effect in Androgenic Alopecia in Young Men
"we found significantly higher levels of serum free testosterone (FT) and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in AGA patients than in normal controls. "

Hormonal Profile of Men With Premature Balding - PubMed
"The frequency of subnormal values in SHBG, FSH, testosterone and epitestosterone (but not in free androgen index) was significant in the balding men."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8977424/
"Together our data indicate that the inhibitory effect of testosterone on proliferation of epithelial cells is age dependent, and androgen may play an essential role in hair growth either by inducing repressor(s) from dermal papilla cells, which may then inhibit the growth of epithelial cells of the hair follicle, or by inducing growth factor(s) from dermal papilla cells, which, in turn, may trigger the induction of some repressors in epithelial cells, thereby inhibiting the epithelial cell growth."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11168798/
"The ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone was significantly greater (mean 46.41, p < 0.001; mean 35.83, p < 0.001, respectively) in the hair of "balding fathers (n = 19, age 28-50 y) and their sons (n = 16, age 8-16 y) than in the hair of the nonbalding control subjects (mean 9.17 and 10.47, respectively).


All the studies mention that people with male pattern baldness have either alevated androgen levels or they are same as control group.

 

[mrchibbs]

I can't find any studies which would agree with you. However, I can find many who claim the opposite - androgens are elevated in men with MPB.


Serum Levels of Androgen-Associated Hormones Are Correlated with Curative Effect in Androgenic Alopecia in Young Men
"we found significantly higher levels of serum free testosterone (FT) and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in AGA patients than in normal controls. "

Hormonal Profile of Men With Premature Balding - PubMed
"The frequency of subnormal values in SHBG, FSH, testosterone and epitestosterone (but not in free androgen index) was significant in the balding men."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8977424/
"Together our data indicate that the inhibitory effect of testosterone on proliferation of epithelial cells is age dependent, and androgen may play an essential role in hair growth either by inducing repressor(s) from dermal papilla cells, which may then inhibit the growth of epithelial cells of the hair follicle, or by inducing growth factor(s) from dermal papilla cells, which, in turn, may trigger the induction of some repressors in epithelial cells, thereby inhibiting the epithelial cell growth."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11168798/
"The ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone was significantly greater (mean 46.41, p < 0.001; mean 35.83, p < 0.001, respectively) in the hair of "balding fathers (n = 19, age 28-50 y) and their sons (n = 16, age 8-16 y) than in the hair of the nonbalding control subjects (mean 9.17 and 10.47, respectively).


All the studies mention that people with male pattern baldness have either alevated androgen levels or they are same as control group.

Thank you for the studies. I am perfectly willing to have a discussion on this topic with you.
There is great uncertainty with the serum levels in AGA patients, I am on my iPad at the moment, but let’s get to the root of the matter. Later today I’ll reply with more information.

 

[mrchibbs]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned re: finasteride being progestinic is that progesterone itself is reduced by 5ar.

View attachment 18095

I'm not sure if there's been a paper investigating this, but finasteride's pro-progesterone effects may be because it increases serum progesterone directly by inhibiting it's reduction to 5a-DHP.

This would leave you with the pro-hair effects of elevated serum progesterone, without many of the other positive effects seen when taking exogenous prog because it's downstream metabolites are suppressed. Many of progesterone's beneficial effects come from it's conversion to 5a-DHP, and subsequently allopregnanolone, because of the latter's potent GABA-A agonism. This reduction in allopreg is postulated as the cause for fin-induced brain fog, depression and anxiety.

So fin might increase serum prog which is beneficial for hair, whilst simultaneously reducing systemic progestin activity - hence the side effects (and ofc the heavy suppression of dht plays a big role, too).

Thanks! That’s a very astute observation. Indeed that reinforces my perspective that progesterone’s anti-estrogenic, aldosterone opposing actions are probably the main mechanism, and not direct lowering of DHT.

 

[mrchibbs]

There used to be forums called 'stopage' people tried progesterone and had no results with it.

I don’t think taking exogenous progesterone is enough to reverse any pathology. But fixing the thyroid and endogenous production of progesterone may be more successful

 

[Broco6679]

I don’t think taking exogenous progesterone is enough to reverse any pathology. But fixing the thyroid and endogenous production of progesterone may be more successful

You've hit the nail on the head there. I've made a conscious effort to take the underarm temp of every male friend and relative who are losing hair, and not a single one of them get anywhere near 37c mid-afternoon - most fall around 36.5c, but some are much lower.

I think a lot of people who claim the RP / Roddy approach to hairloss doesn't work have likely never achieved a truly high metabolic rate, with a mid-afternoon temp of 37c which is sustained by glucose oxidation, not fat oxidation or stress hormones.

Just taking exogenous prog doesn't effect any of the above to a large enough degree to fix it alone.

 

[Broco6679]

Thanks! That’s a very astute observation. Indeed that reinforces my perspective that progesterone’s anti-estrogenic, aldosterone opposing actions are probably the main mechanism, and not direct lowering of DHT.

If this change in progesterone is indeed the pro-hair mechanism of fin, this may also explain why many who take testosterone replacement or androgen-based steroids lose their hair quicker - a process that is also blamed on increased androgen's. Shutdown of the HPTA suppress all upstream hormone production, especially progesterone. My own progesterone whilst taking exogenous testosterone was undetectable at < 0.13 nmol/L, whereas now that I am off testosterone and am taking thyroid, it is 1.4 nmol/L - a high-normal value for a man. My own hair shedding has ceased since coming off testosterone and increasing my endogenous progesterone. I am yet to see any regrowth, but I still have a lot of work to do as my temps are still low.

I was in the TRT community for about three years, and whilst most men didn't check their prog, the ones that did were always deficient. It's also reported that finasteride is less effective at stopping hairloss when taking exogenous testosterone, which may be because it doesn't increase progesterone as significantly when inhibiting it's conversion to 5a-DHP if it is already low in the first place from HPTA suppression.

Another observation I have made is that the most notorious steroid for causing hair loss in the bodybuilding community is trenbolone - a progestin based hormone. Aside from tren's heavy suppression of the HPTA, it also has extremely high affinity for the progesterone receptor, thus impairing progesterone's ability to exert it's own action in the tissue.

All of these observations point towards the fact that prog does play a major role in male hair loss, but I do acknowledge that this is all anecdotal. It is interesting, nonetheless.

 

[Risingfire]

I can't find any studies which would agree with you. However, I can find many who claim the opposite - androgens are elevated in men with MPB.


Serum Levels of Androgen-Associated Hormones Are Correlated with Curative Effect in Androgenic Alopecia in Young Men
"we found significantly higher levels of serum free testosterone (FT) and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in AGA patients than in normal controls. "

Hormonal Profile of Men With Premature Balding - PubMed
"The frequency of subnormal values in SHBG, FSH, testosterone and epitestosterone (but not in free androgen index) was significant in the balding men."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8977424/
"Together our data indicate that the inhibitory effect of testosterone on proliferation of epithelial cells is age dependent, and androgen may play an essential role in hair growth either by inducing repressor(s) from dermal papilla cells, which may then inhibit the growth of epithelial cells of the hair follicle, or by inducing growth factor(s) from dermal papilla cells, which, in turn, may trigger the induction of some repressors in epithelial cells, thereby inhibiting the epithelial cell growth."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11168798/
"The ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone was significantly greater (mean 46.41, p < 0.001; mean 35.83, p < 0.001, respectively) in the hair of "balding fathers (n = 19, age 28-50 y) and their sons (n = 16, age 8-16 y) than in the hair of the nonbalding control subjects (mean 9.17 and 10.47, respectively).


All the studies mention that people with male pattern baldness have either alevated androgen levels or they are same as control group.

You do realize that the top two studies refer to young men. Of course young men have higher levels of test and dht

 

[Risingfire]

Recently I’ve been using progesterone topically and it’s working great with no sides. Been about 2-3 weeks. If anything, my junk is bigger. Little bit of pregnenolone with it.

Really? Progesterone is the master hormone. How much prog have you been using?

 

[Scenes]

Really? Progesterone is the master hormone. How much prog have you been using?

Been playing around with doses and combos, but I would say high dose prog (20-50mg/day) and low dose preg (5-10mg/day) seems a nice spot for me right now.

I tried adding low dose dhea (5mg/day) but my hair didn’t look quite as good, which has always been the case whenever I use dhea (pansterone or cortinon).

I went with high prog to test out the theory peat and others say about low dose prog sometimes causing estrogenic symptoms, so you need to flush out the tissues first with high doses. No idea how accurate that is, but my body is responding really well to higher doses of prog right now.

Pros - super relaxed, harder erections, balls hang lower, skin and hair look better, face just appears better, definite increase in muscle size/tightness as per lowering cortisol
Cons - bit lethargic during the day, perhaps a loss of emotion to a degree but I don’t care about it (haha)

Who knows if it will be constant or if I’m just benefiting from a short term thing.

 

[boris]

I think the thing about the high starting dose is for women only. I heard Peat talk about men having success with higher doses for certain ailments. But generally he says 5-10mg is good for men. And generally men over 50 get an an androgenic effect from these doses.

 

[boris]

This is where he talks about it.
https://www.toxinless.com/kmud-170721-language-criticism-estrogen-part2.mp3

Oh he also talks about how sometimes he handles even bigger doses like you mentionend well, but it changes from time to time.

 

[mayweatherking]

Thank you all for your replies and thanks for engaging here. But I honestly think there's a lot of fear mongering going on both sides and ultimately it comes down to the person to analyse all the info and try to apply it to their life.
I like Danny's out of box thinking when it comes to baldness and appreciate some areas that he has exposed us to such as the role of prolactin that is never even considered. However, there is not enough evidence to show that the protocol he advocates actually regrows lost hair or stops hair loss in its tracks. I've tried it from personal experience and have not seen improvement. However, I intend to keep going to reach the ideal prolactin and tsh values however I doubt that will be effective because to encourage growth of hair one must sustain that balance for a long time before seeing any results and that is something that is very difficult to do if you're working 9-5 and going through life normally.
I do believe there is a clear genetic influence in baldness and Danny calls this susceptibility to stress that is passed down from previous generations and the mainstream calls this susceptibility to DHT. It also cannot be denied that there is enough evidence that suggests minoxidil and finasteride result in regrowth/stopping of hair loss. I don't think it's possible to expect to see results without external intervention therefore I believe we need to experiment ourselves and see what brings us the most results and I intend to do this carefully through monitoring using regular blood tests.
I like all these studies people post and find it interesting to read but I think these just look good and don't tend to translate into real results for people.

just wanted to add.. he doesn't really have a protocol, you could follow his advice to the T and still be in bad shape because you have to reverse the low thyroid condition to begin with, which can feel like a puzzle that is very difficult to solve for some people, it can take years to figure it out what helps vs hurts... you even say you don't have the right hormone levels and you are not showing any improvement, so how would you have improvement if this is the case..

it is pretty obvious to me estrogen is the main problem with hair loss... you can feel the difference between good thyroid vs bad thyroid function, you can feel the blood flow difference, it is obvious to me that this lack of blood flow going to the scalp is causing hair loss, regardless of the hair part, i feel these advices are good just for general health

 

[mrchibbs]

I can't find any studies which would agree with you. However, I can find many who claim the opposite - androgens are elevated in men with MPB.


Serum Levels of Androgen-Associated Hormones Are Correlated with Curative Effect in Androgenic Alopecia in Young Men
"we found significantly higher levels of serum free testosterone (FT) and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in AGA patients than in normal controls. "

Hormonal Profile of Men With Premature Balding - PubMed
"The frequency of subnormal values in SHBG, FSH, testosterone and epitestosterone (but not in free androgen index) was significant in the balding men."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8977424/
"Together our data indicate that the inhibitory effect of testosterone on proliferation of epithelial cells is age dependent, and androgen may play an essential role in hair growth either by inducing repressor(s) from dermal papilla cells, which may then inhibit the growth of epithelial cells of the hair follicle, or by inducing growth factor(s) from dermal papilla cells, which, in turn, may trigger the induction of some repressors in epithelial cells, thereby inhibiting the epithelial cell growth."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11168798/
"The ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone was significantly greater (mean 46.41, p < 0.001; mean 35.83, p < 0.001, respectively) in the hair of "balding fathers (n = 19, age 28-50 y) and their sons (n = 16, age 8-16 y) than in the hair of the nonbalding control subjects (mean 9.17 and 10.47, respectively).


All the studies mention that people with male pattern baldness have either alevated androgen levels or they are same as control group.

Thanks again for the studies @DhtAssassin Sorry I was so harsh in our initial exchanges.

As I said earlier today it is important we discuss this topic, but the fact remains that there is great uncertainty between studies.While it is a known fact that tissue DHT is elevated in the scalps of balding men, estrogen and prolactin (among other metabolites) are also elevated, as was discussed by @haidut in a recent thread. At the very least it seems that serum DHT is uncorrelated with balding:

Some studies in particular, found elevated DHT levels in both controls and AGA patients [Assessment of the usefulness of dihydrotestosterone in the diagnostics of patients with androgenetic alopecia]



Another study found lower total androgens count in men with so called androgenic alopecia Error - Cookies Turned Off

I think it's clear, that at the very least, androgens are not harmful to hair. Men with great hair growth typically have optimal or high levels of T and DHT, and as men age, and their DHT and T levels falls (and estrogen rises), baldness becomes a more and more common occurrence.

We've talked about this before in other threads, but when there is elevated tissue DHT, it is probably because serum DHEA is always elevated in stress conditions (and DHEA is converted to DHT in the skin). As Sanke et. al (2016) found in 2016, men with AGA have the same phenotypic profile as women with PCOS (suffering from the same symptoms of acne, alopecia and hirsutism). Both groups have higher DHEA, higher prolactin, etc. We know PCOS is a deficiency of progesterone/estrogen dominance brought on by hypothyroidism.

As @Broco6679 mentioned in another post above, I think when finasteride is somewhat effective (and an average 10% increase in hair count is not terribly effective ), is because it increases progesterone levels, and not because it reduces DHT itself. That's why I think, as Danny Roddy has started doing over the past few years, the conversation needs to shift to the real physiology of hair loss, and that involves high prolactin, parathyroid, low thyroid (elevated cholesterol), high aldosterone, high angiotensin, and association to prostate cancer, cardiovascular disease. We never see holistic approaches to hair loss in the literature, it's always about viewing it as an isolated illness despite massive evidence to the contrary.

As Ray said in the last interview (#27) with Danny and Georgi, we have to stop looking for a cure in the medical sense, and instead see hair loss as this serious sign of problems, and radically redo our lives to restore high energy production and endogenous progesterone production. (and yes I think massages like Rob English does can be helpful once in a restorative state, although I am not even sure if they are absolutely necessary, seeing that for example a 73 y.old man completely reversed his total baldness using spironolactone only. He's an oddity for sure, but we still have to consider it.)

 

[mrchibbs]

You've hit the nail on the head there. I've made a conscious effort to take the underarm temp of every male friend and relative who are losing hair, and not a single one of them get anywhere near 37c mid-afternoon - most fall around 36.5c, but some are much lower.

I think a lot of people who claim the RP / Roddy approach to hairloss doesn't work have likely never achieved a truly high metabolic rate, with a mid-afternoon temp of 37c which is sustained by glucose oxidation, not fat oxidation or stress hormones.

Just taking exogenous prog doesn't effect any of the above to a large enough degree to fix it alone.

You're dead on my friend. The vast majority never fix this basic problem of thyroid function and therefore never restore metabolic rate to the degree which would be necessary to reverse their hair loss.

I do think however that once thyroid function is back and running, topical progesterone and massages can only help accelerate the recovery.