Progest-e And Progestogenic [Danny Roddy]

Risingfire

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Been playing around with doses and combos, but I would say high dose prog (20-50mg/day) and low dose preg (5-10mg/day) seems a nice spot for me right now.

I tried adding low dose dhea (5mg/day) but my hair didn’t look quite as good, which has always been the case whenever I use dhea (pansterone or cortinon).

I went with high prog to test out the theory peat and others say about low dose prog sometimes causing estrogenic symptoms, so you need to flush out the tissues first with high doses. No idea how accurate that is, but my body is responding really well to higher doses of prog right now.

Pros - super relaxed, harder erections, balls hang lower, skin and hair look better, face just appears better, definite increase in muscle size/tightness as per lowering cortisol
Cons - bit lethargic during the day, perhaps a loss of emotion to a degree but I don’t care about it (haha)

Who knows if it will be constant or if I’m just benefiting from a short term thing.
I've tried high dose progest E on the scalp in the past and felt there was shrinkage going on. If I use cortinon, I get breakouts on my skin.

When I orally take cortinon, I get incredible pumps at the gym and also down low.

Currently, I'm rubbing progesterone on the scalp every 3-4 days. The benefit is a looser scalp that seems to be warmer.
 

mrchibbs

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I've tried high dose progest E on the scalp in the past and felt there was shrinkage going on. If I use cortinon, I get breakouts on my skin.

When I orally take cortinon, I get incredible pumps at the gym and also down low.

Currently, I'm rubbing progesterone on the scalp every 3-4 days. The benefit is a looser scalp that seems to be warmer.

Nice testimony! Keep doing it for the rest of the summer, and if Georgi @haidut is right, it should also act as an estrogen-receptor antagonist, and progesterone is anti-fibrotic in itself (as was discovered in the 1940s and 1950s).
 

Lucas

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Thanks again for the studies @DhtAssassin Sorry I was so harsh in our initial exchanges.

As I said earlier today it is important we discuss this topic, but the fact remains that there is great uncertainty between studies.While it is a known fact that tissue DHT is elevated in the scalps of balding men, estrogen and prolactin (among other metabolites) are also elevated, as was discussed by @haidut in a recent thread. At the very least it seems that serum DHT is uncorrelated with balding:

Some studies in particular, found elevated DHT levels in both controls and AGA patients [Assessment of the usefulness of dihydrotestosterone in the diagnostics of patients with androgenetic alopecia]

View attachment 18101

Another study found lower total androgens count in men with so called androgenic alopecia Error - Cookies Turned Off

View attachment 18102

I think it's clear, that at the very least, androgens are not harmful to hair. Men with great hair growth typically have optimal or high levels of T and DHT, and as men age, and their DHT and T levels falls (and estrogen rises), baldness becomes a more and more common occurrence.

We've talked about this before in other threads, but when there is elevated tissue DHT, it is probably because serum DHEA is always elevated in stress conditions (and DHEA is converted to DHT in the skin). As Sanke et. al (2016) found in 2016, men with AGA have the same phenotypic profile as women with PCOS (suffering from the same symptoms of acne, alopecia and hirsutism). Both groups have higher DHEA, higher prolactin, etc. We know PCOS is a deficiency of progesterone/estrogen dominance brought on by hypothyroidism.

As @Broco6679 mentioned in another post above, I think when finasteride is somewhat effective (and an average 10% increase in hair count is not terribly effective ), is because it increases progesterone levels, and not because it reduces DHT itself. That's why I think, as Danny Roddy has started doing over the past few years, the conversation needs to shift to the real physiology of hair loss, and that involves high prolactin, parathyroid, low thyroid (elevated cholesterol), high aldosterone, high angiotensin, and association to prostate cancer, cardiovascular disease. We never see holistic approaches to hair loss in the literature, it's always about viewing it as an isolated illness despite massive evidence to the contrary.

As Ray said in the last interview (#27) with Danny and Georgi, we have to stop looking for a cure in the medical sense, and instead see hair loss as this serious sign of problems, and radically redo our lives to restore high energy production and endogenous progesterone production. (and yes I think massages like Rob English does can be helpful once in a restorative state, although I am not even sure if they are absolutely necessary, seeing that for example a 73 y.old man completely reversed his total baldness using spironolactone only. He's an oddity for sure, but we still have to consider it.)



Watching the video, I understood that as we get older we have estrogem dominance so hair loss, but the author of the video has another conclusion.
 

mrchibbs

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Watching the video, I understood that as we get older we have estrogem dominance so hair loss, but the author of the video has another conclusion.


Thanks for the video, I'm going to watch it now. The idea that old men have more DHT is laughable. Ray on the recent podcast, said that old men can have as much estrogen as old women. And sometimes they have no testosterone at all left. Relatively healthy old women always have more progesterone than men, even in old age, which I think explains why they keep their hair longer. (Even though they do start to lose it once progesterone disappears totally because of illness/stress, it happened to my grandma)
 

Hans

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Carbon dioxide is injected for the treatment of scars, stretch marks, wrinkles, black areas under eyes, etc.. It enhances collagen turnover and can help renew old tissue and ofc blood flow. I wonder if anyone ever tried that of bald areas.
 

mrchibbs

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Carbon dioxide is injected for the treatment of scars, stretch marks, wrinkles, black areas under eyes, etc.. It enhances collagen turnover and can help renew old tissue and ofc blood flow. I wonder if anyone ever tried that of bald areas.

I'm certain it would help, wonder how you would achieve it though, a bag on the head?
 
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Thanks again for the studies @DhtAssassin Sorry I was so harsh in our initial exchanges.

As I said earlier today it is important we discuss this topic, but the fact remains that there is great uncertainty between studies.While it is a known fact that tissue DHT is elevated in the scalps of balding men, estrogen and prolactin (among other metabolites) are also elevated, as was discussed by @haidut in a recent thread. At the very least it seems that serum DHT is uncorrelated with balding:

Some studies in particular, found elevated DHT levels in both controls and AGA patients [Assessment of the usefulness of dihydrotestosterone in the diagnostics of patients with androgenetic alopecia]

View attachment 18101

Another study found lower total androgens count in men with so called androgenic alopecia Error - Cookies Turned Off

View attachment 18102

I think it's clear, that at the very least, androgens are not harmful to hair. Men with great hair growth typically have optimal or high levels of T and DHT, and as men age, and their DHT and T levels falls (and estrogen rises), baldness becomes a more and more common occurrence.

We've talked about this before in other threads, but when there is elevated tissue DHT, it is probably because serum DHEA is always elevated in stress conditions (and DHEA is converted to DHT in the skin). As Sanke et. al (2016) found in 2016, men with AGA have the same phenotypic profile as women with PCOS (suffering from the same symptoms of acne, alopecia and hirsutism). Both groups have higher DHEA, higher prolactin, etc. We know PCOS is a deficiency of progesterone/estrogen dominance brought on by hypothyroidism.

As @Broco6679 mentioned in another post above, I think when finasteride is somewhat effective (and an average 10% increase in hair count is not terribly effective ), is because it increases progesterone levels, and not because it reduces DHT itself. That's why I think, as Danny Roddy has started doing over the past few years, the conversation needs to shift to the real physiology of hair loss, and that involves high prolactin, parathyroid, low thyroid (elevated cholesterol), high aldosterone, high angiotensin, and association to prostate cancer, cardiovascular disease. We never see holistic approaches to hair loss in the literature, it's always about viewing it as an isolated illness despite massive evidence to the contrary.

As Ray said in the last interview (#27) with Danny and Georgi, we have to stop looking for a cure in the medical sense, and instead see hair loss as this serious sign of problems, and radically redo our lives to restore high energy production and endogenous progesterone production. (and yes I think massages like Rob English does can be helpful once in a restorative state, although I am not even sure if they are absolutely necessary, seeing that for example a 73 y.old man completely reversed his total baldness using spironolactone only. He's an oddity for sure, but we still have to consider it.)

Yeah I feel finasteride is almost like taking thyroid, it is supplying your body with more hormones and constantly pushing on the pedal, def. not in a good way though
 

mrchibbs

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Watching the video, I understood that as we get older we have estrogem dominance so hair loss, but the author of the video has another conclusion.


Yeah the conclusion is a little bit disappointing, after he presented all that evidence, going right back to ''androgens minimize hair follicles''. Which I think is complete BS and overheated rhetoric.

However, it was a very interesting video and he's quite eloquent, making it clear that estrogenization of tissues with age is what happens, and why for example taking large doses of testosterone as you get older is a very bad idea. Funnily enough Ray talked about all of this in detail in the latest interview with Danny.
 

mrchibbs

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Yeah I feel finasteride is almost like taking thyroid, it is supplying your body with more hormones and constantly pushing on the pedal, def. not in a good way though

I keep referencing this interview, but Ray talked about this specifically, he thinks finasteride does a lot of other (nefarious) things, on top of inhibiting 5-ar, but specifically about 5-aR he explains that it is crucial for brain health, development, orgasm function, cognition etc. So indeed finasteride may raise progesterone, but at the expense of seriously messing up your chemical balance. He said that to recover from PFS you need artificial stimulation in the other direction to restore balance. I don't know what drug he was referring to, but it probably means taking lots of thyroid, and real progesterone, and trying to reset the balance.
 

Collden

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Do you guys think Sean Connery had high estrogen or low thyroid? He went bald in his thirties.
 

mrchibbs

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Do you guys think Sean Connery had high estrogen or low thyroid? He went bald in his thirties.

Who knows? I don't think he was significantly hypothyroid. He seemed quite robust and strong (and hairy). Maybe he did have high estrogen, which stimulated his adrenals to produce more androgens leading to a manly, but progressively balding man.

Doesn't mean he wasn't healthy or anything, everyone has particular frailties from their development, he may have been deficient in something. The hereditary factor is real, and he may have been slightly hypo, at least enough to hinder hair growth. Along with other passed on mineral deficiencies (the generations before him were quite poor and had brutal lives in early industrial Scotland). Sometimes the trans-generational effect only becomes significant after a few generations.
 
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Risingfire

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Nice testimony! Keep doing it for the rest of the summer, and if Georgi @haidut is right, it should also act as an estrogen-receptor antagonist, and progesterone is anti-fibrotic in itself (as was discovered in the 1940s and 1950s).
I hope so! Thanks. I'm also working on my diet along with cleaning out my gut. I hope the holistic approach helps. Even if it get in better health and no hair regrowth, it would be worth it.
 

mrchibbs

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I hope so! Thanks. I'm also working on my diet along with cleaning out my gut. I hope the holistic approach helps. Even if it get in better health and no hair regrowth, it would be worth it.

I get bashed for it, but I see no reason why regrowth isn't possible. Go for it.
 
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I keep referencing this interview, but Ray talked about this specifically, he thinks finasteride does a lot of other (nefarious) things, on top of inhibiting 5-ar, but specifically about 5-aR he explains that it is crucial for brain health, development, orgasm function, cognition etc. So indeed finasteride may raise progesterone, but at the expense of seriously messing up your chemical balance. He said that to recover from PFS you need artificial stimulation in the other direction to restore balance. I don't know what drug he was referring to, but it probably means taking lots of thyroid, and real progesterone, and trying to reset the balance.

Probably preg and thyroid, but when u have pfs magnesium gets wasted really fast so its a slippery slope sometimes cuz ur "gas tank" runs out pretty fast and then the liver gets backed up pretty quick too so u can slam on the gas, but actually increasing estrogen and then u "crash" harder, good times, don't do finasteride lol
 

Broco6679

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I get bashed for it, but I see no reason why regrowth isn't possible. Go for it.

What are your thoughts on thyroid supplementation for hair growth in general? This forum seems quite split - one side put forth the idea that improved thyroid function should be achieved via diet, b-vitamins, aspirin, etc; whilst the other takes a tablet of cynoplus everyday (whilst still adhering to appropriate dietary changes, of course).

Ray - and by proxy, Danny - is very pro-exogenous thyroid supplementation, but the preported beneficial effects often aren't realized by those who try it.
 

mrchibbs

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Probably preg and thyroid, but when u have pfs magnesium gets wasted really fast so its a slippery slope sometimes cuz ur "gas tank" runs out pretty fast and then the liver gets backed up pretty quick too so u can slam on the gas, but actually increasing estrogen and then u "crash" harder, good times, don't do finasteride lol

Preg and thyroid is an amazing combo for men. Deals with all the issues. I'm glad even at my lowest I had the presence of mind never to take finasteride. It would have messed me up for good.
 

mrchibbs

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What are your thoughts on thyroid supplementation for hair growth in general? This forum seems quite split - one side put forth the idea that improved thyroid function should be achieved via diet, b-vitamins, aspirin, etc; whilst the other takes a tablet of cynoplus everyday (whilst still adhering to appropriate dietary changes, of course).

Ray - and by poxy, Danny - is very pro-exogenous thyroid supplementation, but the preported beneficial effects often aren't realized by those who try it.

It's essential. Maybe not the supplementation but thyroid function needs to be there otherwise there won't be hair growth. Danny has linked a few references over the years which highlight the crucial importance of thyroid hormones themselves for hair growth.

If this forum is split is because many people just don't get it. Even Ray doesn't recommend thyroid supplementation for most people. In fact, he's said many times that for young people, careful diet and lifestyle changes can fix it and are a better approach.. Even things like red light therapy on the thyroid can increase its function. Vitamin D is necessary for it to work, selenium, zinc too etc.

Thyroid supplementation is sometimes necessary because it makes people feel a lot better within 2 months, and it can help sustain the necessary energy production to repair and restore function in tissues, while you work on eating a very very good diet, and removing the stressors in your environment.

I'd recommend avoiding thyroid supplementation, at least initially, and simply get more sun, more protein, take aspirin etc. and see if the morning temperatures are trending up. If they're not, a NDT supplement maybe useful taken with a lot of food, but I would do it like Broda Barnes, i.e. starting with a very low amount maybe 0.25 grain and increasing every month if the temperatures are not trending up.

I use synthetic, because I didn't know better, and was deathly sick when I started with temperatures in the low 95s. It's much more finicky to dose properly, and inappropriate dosages can suppress conversion of T4 into T3 for months. This doesn't typically happen with NDT. A tablet of cynoplus a day is a very very bad idea. It's not NDT, it needs to be taken in small doses (max 1/4th of a cynoplus at a time) otherwise it has an anti-thyroid effect (causing rT3 and backlog of T4 in the liver)
 
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Broco6679

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I agree with everything you said. Thyroid should be reserved for when dietary and lifestyle changes have proved unable to remedy the problem. It all goes back to Selye's general adaptation syndrome - to get out of the downregulated state, the stressors must first be removed, and the regenerative action that follows has to exceed the extend of downregulation that has occurred. For some, diet, sunlight and supplementing vit D/K2 is enough; whereas other's need thyroid, preg, prog, dhea, etc.

Unfortunately, it's becoming increasingly clear that I fall into the latter group. Strict implementation of Ray's dietary and lifestyle recommendation have markedly improved my quality of life, and this is reflected in my lab work, with significant increases in cholesterol, progesterone, dhea and testosterone, and decreases in iron, estradiol, prolactin and cortisol. Alas, my temperatures remain low, and symptoms of severe hypothyrodisim persist.

There comes a point where one mus accept a higher level of intervention may be needed, and then thyroid can be considered. Even Danny say's there comes a point where endlessly tinkering with your diet isn't going to help if you're severely hypothyroid.

I also agree with your point re: NDT > Synthetic. The problem there is where do you find a high quality NDT these days? I have access to all of the commercial NDT's, yet each one comes with it's own flaws that makes use unfeasible. If a good NDT existed, I imagine Ray would use / recommend it, but he sill maintains cynoplus is the best source available. The anti-thyroid effects of syntehtics come from the absence of TBG and transthyretin, but as you said, this can be accounted for by taking small doses spread over the day.

If you take synthetics yourself, I'm assuming dietary intervention alone was not enough to reach optimal temps, and thus improve your hair?
 

mrchibbs

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I agree with everything you said. Thyroid should be reserved for when dietary and lifestyle changes have proved unable to remedy the problem. It all goes back to Selye's general adaptation syndrome - to get out of the downregulated state, the stressors must first be removed, and the regenerative action that follows has to exceed the extend of downregulation that has occurred. For some, diet, sunlight and supplementing vit D/K2 is enough; whereas other's need thyroid, preg, prog, dhea, etc.

Unfortunately, it's becoming increasingly clear that I fall into the latter group. Strict implementation of Ray's dietary and lifestyle recommendation have markedly improved my quality of life, and this is reflected in my lab work, with significant increases in cholesterol, progesterone, dhea and testosterone, and decreases in iron, estradiol, prolactin and cortisol. Alas, my temperatures remain low, and symptoms of severe hypothyrodisim persist.

There comes a point where one mus accept a higher level of intervention may be needed, and then thyroid can be considered. Even Danny say's there comes a point where endlessly tinkering with your diet isn't going to help if you're severely hypothyroid.

I also agree with your point re: NDT > Synthetic. The problem there is where do you find a high quality NDT these days? I have access to all of the commercial NDT's, yet each one comes with it's own flaws that makes use unfeasible. If a good NDT existed, I imagine Ray would use / recommend it, but he sill maintains cynoplus is the best source available.

If you take synthetics yourself, I'm assuming dietary intervention alone was not enough to reach optimal temps, and thus improve your hair?

I use synthetic because I absolutely adhere to Ray and Danny's idea that thyroid used to be common part of the diet, and that there are enough anti-thyroid influences in the modern environment to warrant its continued use as a ''supplement'' much like oysters and liver or gelatin. But in a healthy person that might be a small amount, just 0.25 grains daily, or the equivalent something you would have gotten in traditional foods 50 years ago.

My temperatures are much better, I reach 99F on many days in the afternoon, my morning temperatures are a little below still (97.5F), so I have work to do as it seems nighttime is very stressful to me. I've still gained more than 2F since 2018. That's enormous.

If you have access to most NDTs, I would experiment with small doses of each, and find the product which is most reliable/effective for you. I think there are more and more good sources of desiccated thyroid, the Life Giving Store has some, Idealabs has a NDT product. I'm sure no product is perfect, but as long as it's real thyroid extract, it should have a good effect. Nature-Throid is also time-tested. Follow Broda Barnes's approach and increase slowly. He was super successful with NDT, and it will work for you too.

I think the environment is so bad, that ''unnatural'' doses of nutrients and minerals, drugs, hormones, thyroid are probably necessary, especially if you want to offset transgenerational effects. As I mentioned earlier, red light therapy directly on the thyroid has been proven to restore function and has gotten people off supplemental thyroid.

At the end of the day, Ray is 100% right. What makes life meaningful is intense energy production, the world has more colours, when we have more energy, we are more human and every second is more meaningful, we feel more deeply, and we create more, and all of our functions work better. Without optimal thyroid function, none of this is possible and we live a woefully unsatisfying existence.
 

Hans

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I'm certain it would help, wonder how you would achieve it though, a bag on the head?
It would be pretty difficult without a specific device designed for that purpose. So I was wondering about the injections.
 

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