Danny's crusade against Mercola on Progest-E

[BobbyJackson]

Anyone else been seeing this crusade of Danny's against Mercola because of his criticisms of Progest-E lately? I feel it comes across as a bit emotional and illogical. I think that Mercola does make good arguments about why Progest-E is not ideal, because of the bottle. I understand Danny's concern about Peat's legacy and his wife who makes money off of the sales of Progest-E and how it's important to her.

But the reality is that Mercola's complaints about Progest-E are legitimate. Yes, of course, he has financial incentive because he's going to make his own progesterone product and probably put it in a superior glass bottle with a superior dropper so the dosage can be more easily measured.

At the end of the day though, one of Ray Peat's critical sayings was to Perceive, Think and Act. I think that's what Mercola has been doing. His criticisms are right and he's acting on them by putting out a better product. While Danny is railing against him from an obviously emotional standpoint about Ray Peat's legacy and his wife's income stream from the product that Ray created, rather than using logic. It comes across as overly defensive and irrational. I think we should be able to admit even when stuff that's huge in the Ray Peat community could have some flaws.

None of this denigrates Peat's discovery and patenting of this product. At the end of the day his solution and discovery lives on as a product that many will produce and help many people.

 

[tallglass13]

Anyone else been seeing this crusade of Danny's against Mercola because of his criticisms of Progest-E lately? I feel it comes across as a bit emotional and illogical. I think that Mercola does make good arguments about why Progest-E is not ideal, because of the bottle. I understand Danny's concern about Peat's legacy and his wife who makes money off of the sales of Progest-E and how it's important to her.

But the reality is that Mercola's complaints about Progest-E are legitimate. Yes, of course, he has financial incentive because he's going to make his own progesterone product and probably put it in a superior glass bottle with a superior dropper so the dosage can be more easily measured.

At the end of the day though, one of Ray Peat's critical sayings was to Perceive, Think and Act. I think that's what Mercola has been doing. His criticisms are right and he's acting on them by putting out a better product. While Danny is railing against him from an obviously emotional standpoint about Ray Peat's legacy and his wife's income stream from the product that Ray created, rather than using logic. It comes across as overly defensive and irrational. I think we should be able to admit even when stuff that's huge in the Ray Peat community could have some flaws.

None of this denigrates Peat's discovery and patenting of this product. At the end of the day his solution and discovery lives on as a product that many will produce and help many people.

Can you please describe Mercola's statements and stance on Progest E. This is the first I have heard of this.

 

[BobbyJackson]

He has been basically complaining about it because of the method of delivery:

This is the best summary so far of what he has been saying, I think. It has been ongoing for a while now. He has also claimed that the plastic bottle contains BPAs, I believe, which Danny has said is incorrect. Which I would always argue, that we shouldn't trust any plastics anyways as being safe from estrogenic compounds.

Danny Roddy stated in quoting this image:

If this is true, it makes the whole situation even worse. What a piece of ***t. He knows exactly what he's doing here. He's defaming Progest-E to prepare people for his product. More to come as it's revealed publicly.

https://archive.is/OkkgE

"One commercial product that Georgi and I discussed was Progest-E which the late biologist and thyroid expert Ray Peat developed..."
"...I did some research and now would strongly recommend avoiding Progest-E."

"...[Progest-E] is put into a cheap plastic squeeze bottle.... loaded with plasticizers like BPA..." [LDPE does not contain BPA]

"But, the more important reason is that it is virtually impossible to squeeze out a precise dose of 'one drop' from the bottle... this product needs to be avoided." [Mercola can't figure out how to warm the bottle to dose it?]

"M: And there's only one company – or there are two companies that do that, Progest E, which I don't like.
G: Kenogen is the company that produces Progest E.
Dr. Joseph Mercola:
M: Yeah, I don't like that. I do not recommend that company at all."

Progest-E doesn't exist in a vacuum. Progest-E is Katherine. Progest-E is Ray's legacy. That's why this is important.

 

[Risingfire]

Mercola is a hack who constantly changes his mind. It's obvious he doesn't understands why Progest-E is viscous. He's attacking the product so he can replace the market with his product which will be inferior.

 

[tastyfood]

Mercola is a hack who constantly changes his mind. It's obvious he doesn't understands why Progest-E is viscous. He's attacking the product so he can replace the market with his product which will be inferior.

This.

Also, he said "he doesn't like the company at all". You can make some fair criticisms about a product, or talk about why it doesn't work "for you". But to talk about "the company" as if Kenogen was some evil organization, is a bold claim.

 

[Ideonaut]

Mercola is a hack who constantly changes his mind. It's obvious he doesn't understands why Progest-E is viscous. He's attacking the product so he can replace the market with his product which will be inferior.

I think Mercola is mainly a money grubber. He shows that he has forsaken a health truth perspective by agreeing so enthusiastically with Dinkov about anti-PUFA but then still selling his omega 3s and krill oil, touting them as healthy.

 

[Happycat]

I don't think Kenogen will lose any customers after what Mercola said, people who love Progest E will continue to use it.

 

[Dave Clark]

Well, Joe isn't maligning Health Natura's progesterone, so I am a guessing he only had the problem with Progest-E. He could of stated his issue with a bit more discretion, and not demean the company in the terms he put it in. I recently had an issue with a K2 product that does just the opposite, runs out too fast making it hard to dose. I contacted the company, who I am very fond of, and told them my experience. I really don't care much for Danny as a podcaster, but he may have a point, Joe can steal many customers of Progest-E when his product comes out, by saying what he did. Joe is a quirky guy, but I guess I have to give him points for having Georgi on his podcasts, if only he would be quiet and let Georgi do the talking, lol.

 

[dukesbobby777]

What he said about it is perfectly reasonable critique. I've also used progest-e, and thought it was completely unpractical to use. Impossible to dose because you squeeze on the bottle and different sized blobs come out each time. Is that why I only bough it once, and never bought it again? Why yes. That's exactly the reason. I mean, its OK if you are female and taking one blob or two blobs doesn't really matter. But being male (and considering the potential negaitive effects that can occur from a male taking too much), I was looking for a product where I could dose accurately. I didn't find that with progest-e.

This.

Also, he said "he doesn't like the company at all". You can make some fair criticisms about a product, or talk about why it doesn't work "for you". But to talk about "the company" as if Kenogen was some evil organization, is a bold claim.

Where did he say that he didn't like the company? Do you have a reference for that? It's quite clear from that text linked above he's got a problem with the product, not the company. And if he is about to release a progesterone product, and wants the competition eliminated, why didn't he go after health natura as well (instead of reccomending them as a source)?

 

[Jman]

Putting it in a glass dropper would mean cutting it with an oil. MCT oil causes problems for many. Olive oil would destabilize the solution and make it more likely for the progesterone to crystalize with temperature changes.

LDPE bottles don't contain BPA and don't leach anything harmful. They are extremely durable, and resist temperature changes. You can freeze progest-e no problems.

It's not hard to wrap your head around what a 30mg drop looks like. You can squeeze this amount out and dab it off on a spoon or the top of your hand, no matter how cold and viscous it is.

YOUR BODY ISN'T COUNTING THE EXACT AMOUNT OF PROGESTERONE YOU ARE TAKING.

It's not something that needs to be precision supplemented. Progesterone is all about experimenting and figuring out what amount works for you. In women and men, that could be 3mg or it could be 300mg. It can vary from week to week. As Ray said with T3 once, something to the effect of "Your body isnt counting the micrograms, each time you take some your body will react to the same amount differently."

But like someone here said, I doubt mercolas comments are going to sway any of kenogens regular customer base. I selfishly prefer the comments he's made. I don't want thousands of people swamping Katherine with orders.

 

[orpheus]

I've personally never had a problem getting a drop out of a Progest-E bottle. I haven't listened to the interview but like other posters said, you're body isn't a machine tracking how many milligrams of progesterone you just rubbed in your gums, and its so funny to me that he doesn't realize he's going to have the same "titration" issues even if he recreates it himself, the substance is inherently viscous and difficult to measure.

I get emails from this guy but I've only read a few, he's clearly very neurotic, funnily enough I saw some supplements of his in a local store that sells raw milk and they had a bunch of horrible "inert" ingredients in them. I don't really see Mercola as perceiving, thinking, or acting, I see him akin to Jack Kruse, these guys make their living off of newsletters and products and they can't seem to judge it worthwhile to be open minded to Peat's ideas for long enough to understand what he's saying, and they just come off as rigid and overly fanatical.

If the guy removes the krill oil from his store and takes the "inert" ingredients out of his supplements I might consider respecting him.

Also, I think Danny's emotional response is good, there's no point for Mercola to duplicate Health Natura's product, except greed, and there's no point for him to critique Progest-E when it was the first of its kind and literally the only reason Mercola is even talking about progesterone in the first place, except also greed. If you wanna go all Andrew Huberman with the precision of your dosing I would probably recommend more progesterone, your penis won't shrink forever.

 

[Sheik]

Having a spine isn't exactly a hallmark of Mercola's character. It's going to be so funny if he actually comes out with a progesterone product of his own.

 

[Lilac]

This thread is all I know about this conflict, and I am 100 percent with Danny.

The interviews with Georgi are all I know of Mercola. There were moments when he grated, explaining a fine point whenever he could. Which wasn't often, as Georgi was mopping the floor with him.

And I kept thinking, I, a non-science person, recognized Ray's rightness 12 years ago. Where was Dr. Mercola? Selling something that was more profitable. He senses the wind changing in Peat's direction, so is getting in on that.

@Risingfire is right on the money, IMO. Mercola is setting up his own product. Using harsh language about Kenogen and Progest-E is insensitive and ungentlemanly--the polar opposite of Ray Peat.

On Danny's last show, he told the story of saying something factually wrong or backwards by mistake, and Ray did not correct him. Also, I recall when Ray was on a panel interview with Dr. Kate Shanahan and she made a fool of herself trying to dispute a point, but he said nothing. And not long ago Patrick Timpone said something like "Aren't avocados great? So full of good stuff," and Ray agreed. And I'm going, "I thought Ray did not like avocados--too much PUFA. Guess not."

 

[tastyfood]

Where did he say that he didn't like the company? Do you have a reference for that? It's quite clear from that text linked above he's got a problem with the product, not the company. And if he is about to release a progesterone product, and wants the competition eliminated, why didn't he go after health natura as well (instead of reccomending them as a source)?

He literally said "I don't like the company at all". It's right there in the second post.

 

[Marcine]

Putting it in a glass dropper would mean cutting it with an oil. MCT oil causes problems for many. Olive oil would destabilize the solution and make it more likely for the progesterone to crystalize with temperature changes.

LDPE bottles don't contain BPA and don't leach anything harmful. They are extremely durable, and resist temperature changes. You can freeze progest-e no problems.

It's not hard to wrap your head around what a 30mg drop looks like. You can squeeze this amount out and dab it off on a spoon or the top of your hand, no matter how cold and viscous it is.

YOUR BODY ISN'T COUNTING THE EXACT AMOUNT OF PROGESTERONE YOU ARE TAKING.

It's not something that needs to be precision supplemented. Progesterone is all about experimenting and figuring out what amount works for you. In women and men, that could be 3mg or it could be 300mg. It can vary from week to week. As Ray said with T3 once, something to the effect of "Your body isnt counting the micrograms, each time you take some your body will react to the same amount differently."

But like someone here said, I doubt mercolas comments are going to sway any of kenogens regular customer base. I selfishly prefer the comments he's made. I don't want thousands of people swamping Katherine with orders.

That's what I've always thought about dosing, so that part of Mercola's criticism is a mot point. Some times I drop a stream down my arm and other times I'm just putting 3 drops on my gums, sometimes I dose every four hours, sometimes twice a day. Vit E is a bitchy mess no matter how you package it.

 

[Peatful]

Thanks for the PSA


Won’t be supporting Mercola’s written content nor podcasts thx to him acting like a little bttch

 

[Risingfire]

This.

Also, he said "he doesn't like the company at all". You can make some fair criticisms about a product, or talk about why it doesn't work "for you". But to talk about "the company" as if Kenogen was some evil organization, is a bold claim.

I can't think of a better progesterone product. This really improved my sleep when I had rough nights

I think Mercola is mainly a money grubber. He shows that he has forsaken a health truth perspective by agreeing so enthusiastically with Dinkov about anti-PUFA but then still selling his omega 3s and krill oil, touting them as healthy.

Agreed. He was so pro IF and HIIT only a few years ago. Always all over the place. I wouldn't be surprised if he was Keto for years. Haven't paid attention to him in a long time.

 

[Risingfire]

This thread is all I know about this conflict, and I am 100 percent with Danny.

The interviews with Georgi are all I know of Mercola. There were moments when he grated, explaining a fine point whenever he could. Which wasn't often, as Georgi was mopping the floor with him.

And I kept thinking, I, a non-science person, recognized Ray's rightness 12 years ago. Where was Dr. Mercola? Selling something that was more profitable. He senses the wind changing in Peat's direction, so is getting in on that.

@Risingfire is right on the money, IMO. Mercola is setting up his own product. Using harsh language about Kenogen and Progest-E is insensitive and ungentlemanly--the polar opposite of Ray Peat.

On Danny's last show, he told the story of saying something factually wrong or backwards by mistake, and Ray did not correct him. Also, I recall when Ray was on a panel interview with Dr. Kate Shanahan and she made a fool of herself trying to dispute a point, but he said nothing. And not long ago Patrick Timpone said something like "Aren't avocados great? So full of good stuff," and Ray agreed. And I'm going, "I thought Ray did not like avocados--too much PUFA. Guess not."

I wouldn't be surprised if his progesterone is a micronized powder in pill form with terrible excipients such as titanium dioxide.

 

[xeliex]

Thanks for the PSA


Won’t be supporting Mercola’s written content nor podcasts thx to him acting like a little bttch

I think Mercola ought to know.

Perhaps he is not aware that Kenogen is part of Ray and supporting his widow.

That would not justify his unjustified criticism of Kenogen, but perhaps it will make him reflect and apologize as a decent human would do.

 

[Dapose]

Ray was a big boy. I don’t think he would have given a rats **** if Mercola 12 years ago would have interviewed him. And I don’t think he would have cared at all if Joe would have said to Ray, “progest E is a bad product I don’t like how it comes out of the bottle. I’m going to make a better version of it” Ray would have said oh, Ok and chuckled.
I’m not saying I can read peoples minds I’m saying I’ve listen to every single interview with Ray multiple times (I’m a slow learner) and he could care less if every person that interviewed him told him they were going to make a Progesterone product.
Mercola in the interview with Giorgi tells people how to make there own progesterone product!! Hello people that’s the exact spirit of this whole forum.