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Peat's Surprising Response To My Email. A "Ray Peat Vegan" Is Possible

Discussion in 'Discussing Dietary Models' started by Westside PUFAs, Dec 18, 2015.

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  1. Westside PUFAs

    Westside PUFAs Member

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    The following email has been forwarded to admin at raypeat forum dot com. Charlie can confirm it's authenticity.

    Me:

    Date: Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 2:20 PM
    Subject: Casein and glycine deficiency

    "Ray,

    If someone was a dedicated vegan and they ate no animal products at all, it seems to me that the lack of casein from milk and the lack of glycine from oxtail soup/other animal glycine sources, would be the only real concern due to potential liver problems because of the lack thereof. But given your recent comments on the high protein quality of mushrooms and the high quality protein of potato, do you think if a vegan got most of their calories from quality fruits, some fruit juice, potatoes with coconut oil, mushrooms, and well cooked green leaves for calcium that as long as they have good blood tests for liver function/liver enzymes and thyroid function that they could be healthy?"

    Ray Peat responds:

    Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 3:05 PM
    Re: Casein and glycine deficiency

    "Yes, I think those goods can provide enough protein in a good balance of amino acids."

    Me:

    Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 4:42 PM
    Re: Casein and glycine deficiency

    "And as far as vitamin A, I know that with enough B12 and good thyroid function, enough carotene will be converted into A. As far as iodine and selenium, a vegan should get enough from those foods, especially iodine because the requirement is so small. The signs of a selenium deficiency could be the same as the typical hypothyroid symptoms but usually the very rare Keshan disease, but with an abundance of those foods, a vegan should get enough selenium. As far as endotoxin, a vegan would be more than happy to use raw carrots and bamboo shoots to keep things moving. But a high fruit diet naturally keeps things moving as well."

    Ray Peat responds:

    Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 7:25 PM
    Re: Casein and glycine deficiency

    "PUFA can react with iodine to make antithyroid compounds, so iodine deficiency is less likely when the diet is low in those."

    :shock:

    Let me address some things before the ignorant comments come pouring in. Or better yet, let me predict them.

    "Stupid Westside bugging Peat with nonsense emails." - Typical hater.

    I have sent Ray money in the form of donations, bought some of his books, and have been a paid subscriber to his newsletter for three years. Have you ever sent him money? I didn't think so.

    "This is stupid. Peat doesn't recommend a vegan diet. He highly promotes dairy." - Whole milk drinker with gyno.

    Relax. I am not suggesting that Peat "endorses" or "recommends" a vegan diet. But this is surely a surprise response from him. I thought he was going to say something like "I don't think a person can be healthy without adequate animal protein." But wow. If anything, this just once again shows his brilliance. Mushroom and potato protein? It would only come from Ray Peat, ahead of the game in that regard because no one thinks of those as "protein," even vegans themselves.

    "Westside spreading his vegan propaganda once more" - Paleo guy who read that Peat likes ice cream/sugar so he's here.

    I'm not vegan, although now I'm more open to it. The only animal product I will probably never give up is milk. I love milk. But I can easily give up everything else - meat, fish, eggs, and even cheese. More and more cheese is made with weird ingredients. The only concern I have about milk is what this guy points out about it: http://bit.ly/1NXXDYp

    I've been reading/listening to Peat since Oct. 2011, for over four years now. After all of my research, I deduce that the only nutrient "deficiencies" on a "Peat" approach that a vegan may encounter are the lack of animal protein, mainly casein from milk and glycine from gelatin, the two optimal "Peat" animal protein sources, and the mineral selenium. Peat recommends eating a form of seafood once a week to get the mineral selenium. Selenium is needed for the conversion of the thyroid hormone T4 to the active T3. Peat recommends eating enough protein and high quality protein mainly to help the liver function at it's best and do the jobs of producing and converting enough thyroid hormone and detoxing and inactivating estrogen. Not eating any kind of meat is perfectly fine to Peat. Meat is high in inflammatory amino acids methionine, cysteine, arginine, tryptophan (thus serotonin) which "turn off" and suppress the thyroid, high in phosphate, and high in iron, and if not high quality, possibly high estrogen.

    The only concern from a Peat perspective then is getting enough quality protein and getting enough calcium. Peat has clearly stated now that mushrooms are very high quality protein and contain anti-estrogen compounds, and he has been saying for years that potato has protein of a quality that is higher than egg yolk. Calcium can be obtained mainly from well cooked green leaves, the boiled water from green leaves, and even things like fresh coconut water are purported to be high in calcium, according to some nutrition databases. A "Ray Peat Vegan" would simply always keep a jar of green leave mineral water in their fridge, similar to milk.

    For calcium, Peat generally thinks around 2000 mg's a day is good. This can easily be met on a vegan diet. Remember that the Ray Peat Vegan would be aware of calcium intake and would do things like always have a mega-green broth stewing or in the fridge at all times. The Ray Peat Vegan would simply have their parathyroid hormone level checked to see how their calcium intake is faring. Low PTH=optimal calcium intake.

    A caller once asked Peat about Vietnamese who don't drink milk/eat cheese and their bones and Peat said something about their green plant intake and also their sunshine and vitamin D levels with relation to healthy bones. I'm still trying to find that episode, if anyone knows which one it was, please post.

    As far as endotoxin, people really miss the point about it. Peat has said many times that it's best to "keep things moving through" in regards to bowel movements. Constipation is also a symptom of low thyroid and a high fruit diet naturally keeps things moving through. A vegan diet based on fruit, potato, other well cooked roots (parsnip, turnip etc), the many varieties of mushroom (many available in Asian groceries), and the many kinds of green leaves...your bowel movements would be so regular that it would take getting used to. Goitrogens are deactivated by cooking. A bit of seaweed can go a long way, a pinch thrown into a soup would provide plenty of iodine and possibly some selenium. A brazil nut once a week could be a selenium supplement.

    As far as the fat soluble vitamins, ADEK, lets go through them. D is meant to be obtained from sun or supplement. E is not needed unless you eat PUFA or have high history of PUFA and even then Peat has said that E should be used "sparingly." Vit. A can be converted from carotene which Peat has confirmed in the context of a healthy thyroid, enough B12. And K is found abundantly in many foods. The mega dosing of ADEK is simply personal experimentation and maybe rightly so for individuals.

    Saturated fat for the Ray Peat Vegan? No problem. Coconut oil and cocoa fat. And if in the tropics, there are exotic forms of saturated fats in some fruits and some palm plants that are different than palm oil.

    B12 is made by bacteria, not plant or animals. The modern lifestyle of sanitation and food methods makes potential B12 problems. Famed animals are injected with b-12: "In order to maintain meat a source of B12 the meat industry now adds it to animal feed, 90% of B12 supplements produced in the world are fed to livestock. Even if you only eat grass-fed organic meat you may not be able to absorb the B12 attached to animal protein. It may be more efficient to just skip the animals and get B12 directly from supplements." - http://bit.ly/1RudDDX

    Everyone should get a B12 test at least once a year, regardless of diet. Just like everyone should get liver and thyroid function tests yearly.

    The Ray Peat Vegan would surely be doing a lot of steaming. :lol: But they could make it work. Would it get boring? Yea, but even Peat himself has said in one of the podcasts that he gets "tired of eating the same foods all the time." Food boredom is something everyone deals with.

    There are many silly vegans out there just like there are many silly versions of anyone else. Just like every Muslim is not a terrorist, every vegan is not an a-hole like Vegan Gains. People eating 800 calorie juice vegan diets or diets based off of tofurkey, soy, and flaxseeds are not the same as The Ray Peat Vegan. The Ray Peat Vegan would be a special kind of vegan.

    The bottom line is, a Ray Peat Vegan can be healthy simply by monitoring the metrics: temperature, pulse rate, mood, blood sugar, sleep, libido, blood test results, bowel movements, and amount of body fat. If The Ray Peat Vegan's blood tests for liver and thyroid function come back perfectly fine after eating such a way for years, then there's really nothing you can say to them.

    Let me paint a story for you.

    Imagine that Peat is doing one of his nutrition consultations that he used to do. Better yet, Ray goes to Mexico annually. So let's say he had to make a stop in Mexico City with a friend and while there, they go to a cafe to get some coffee. Ray's friend introduces him to a 25 year old vegan hipster chick who is traveling to Mexico to help poor people. She says "Ray, I love your work. I saw that documentary you were in and it was amazing. I love your paintings..."

    The girl then proceeds to tell Peat that she is a vegan, a dedicated "ethical" vegan, meaning that under no circumstances, even if it meant to sacrifice her own health, would she ingest any animal product, including honey.

    Now, in this situation, do you really think Peat would tell her that he thinks she is stupid for not eating any animal products or do you think that he would simply let her "perceive, think, and act?"

    Do you think he would "attempt to steer her to make it hard for her to move, because it can inactivate her own guidance system?"

    I think he'd let her be. (or paint a picture of her naked :thumbright )
     
  2. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    He responds to you and nobody else :(

    Can you ask him about organic vs normal? And about the 0.2% conversion rate for carotene? You'd need about 40 large carrots to get 1000IU of retinol I think.
     
  3. DesertRat

    DesertRat Member

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    I just clicked on that link about dairy consumption. It's pretty scary! and it makes sense for the first time why my breasts grew when I started Peating. So why in the world would Peat recommend drinking milk if it is full of estrogen, and if it has elevated levels of IgF-1, not to mention casein--all things we are trying to avoid?
     
  4. johns74

    johns74 Member

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    The reason we are here is that want to grow breasts. That's why we drink as much milk as we can.
     
  5. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    The Number 25 Reasons Why Dairy Is Killing You Slowly... Number 19 Is Beautifully Symbolic [Sponsored Ad]
     
  6. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Can confirm.

    #RayPeatVegan :ss2
     
  7. OP
    Westside PUFAs

    Westside PUFAs Member

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    Studies for conversion rates?

    There are many other sources besides carrots. Fruits, roots, and greens are high as well.

    Peat mentions the potential problems with carotene but also mentioned how a healthy person converts it just fine. It's probably another one of those things; a sick, low thyroid person would not just not be able to convert carotene, they can hardly assimilate and convert anything.

    "Most fruits contain some carotene, and with vitamin B12 and good thyroid function, that will be turned into vitamin A." - Peat, when asked about an all fruit diet.

    I don't think he'd think that it the conversion rate was so small.

    The Okinawans lived off of sweet potato. They didn't go blind from vit. A deficiency.

    GMO rice that is made to have carotene prevents vit. A deficiency. http://www.goldenrice.org
     
  8. Brian

    Brian Member

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    I feel great on a nearly vegan diet of potatoes, ripe fruit/juice, leafy green broth, plus shrimp/oyster. It's completely satisfying and I doubt I would ever get bored.

    My favorite dish is potato soup boiled into nearly pure glucose. It's more satisfying than milk to me. I wish there was a quicker way to make it. It takes two hours to do right.

    Unfortunately good quality fruit/juice/greens/sea food are not available very often where I live, so my diet has quite a bit of dairy and eggs in it with occasional beef.
     
  9. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Would be awesome if you post the recipe/instructions on this. :hattip
     
  10. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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  11. zooma

    zooma Member

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    Do you drink skim milk?
     
  12. OP
    Westside PUFAs

    Westside PUFAs Member

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    I buy an unhomogenized whole one in glass bottles that I pour 2 of into a bigger glass jar with a spout on the bottom, let sit for a few days and drain when I want a glass and the fat is on top so it's low fat milk. I use the cream as a skin moisturizer/to shave. The longer you let the milk sit, the more cream rises to top and the less fat you have when you drain a glass.
     
  13. Brian

    Brian Member

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    Pretty simple. Just dice up 5 small peeled potatoes into little cubes and place in salted boiling water until they are completely obliterated. Adding more water as necessary to keep the potato particles from getting too close to each other and turning the water into bubbling starch prematurely. It generally takes at least 90 minutes before I'm satisfied with how broken down the starch is.

    I'm sure there's a more sophisticated, efficient way. This is just the way I came up with and it's a bit too time consuming for me to do regularly. I wonder if a pressure cooker could speed it up?
     
  14. brandonk

    brandonk Member

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    I guess I'm surprised you or anyone would be surprised. Ray Peat theorized I think about twenty years ago that there might be enough ketoacids in fruit to provide all the nutrients needed, but to be safe, he needed to study this further. Unfortunately, he found that the reagents he needed were not available except to those that had a security clearance.

    Without further study, it's hard to say which fruits have the necessary ketoacids. Only potatoes have been studied sufficiently to show that they have ketoacids, but potatoes may have too much starch, especially as you age, though the starch can be removed.

    But fruit is a kind of bare subsistence diet, when you have things like coconut oil or its fractions with which you can live and feel so much better.
     
  15. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    :yeahthat
     
  16. mayweatherking

    mayweatherking Member

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    4.3 grams of protein in 1 potato... like 1 gram of protein in a cup of mushrooms. you'd have to eat 10 potatoes in a day just to hit half of the protein amount needed in a day. it seems like you might get protein deficiency.

    and getting calcium from kale at least is... interesting. you have to eat A LOT of kale to hit the amount. i tried to do it in the past and i think it actually led to some of my problems because you literally have to eat like an entire plate full. like literally a whole plate covered in kale, like 2 or 3 i think of those.
     
  17. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    It seems like potatoes would be the main part of the diet anyhow... there was also one guy on here or the other forum that ate that amount and more.
     
  18. jb116

    jb116 Member

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    where's the b12 coming from?
     
  19. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    classic :smug :cool:
     
  20. jb116

    jb116 Member

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