Hair loss ThinkTank. Passionate and or Intellectual People

[GorillaHead]

tissue tension = inflammation

inflamed tissue = more dht for anti-inflammation

that is, no matter what your skull shape, depending on where the tensile apex is, that is where you, personally, will begin to lose your hair - whatever else might start that cascade, the tension maximizes inflammation in that area, which causes dht to overexpress itself i don't know what this means

can you elaborate? if you mean pulling your hair is good for your hair, i agree \o/


that sounds like areata. if it's not pattern hair loss, then it's not pattern hair loss. falling out in patches etc seems far more like an autoimmune diseas

So interesting study you cited about stretch there may be some merit there.

Also to elaborate on your question. I was referring to this study where stretch induced thicker hair. And stretch is induced by tension.

you talk about inflamation increase dht expression and I agree with this. Hence why we see people lose hair with infected scalp and what not.

and in terms of people losing hair on the nape or sides. This is actually not areata. The safe zone is very small on the head. In very advanced aga men will lose the hair and thin on the nape. This has been observed by many doctors and transplant surgeons hence why this diagram shows the safe zone is so small.

lets assume your tension theory is correct then your saying the solution is to relax the muscles? How come in diseases like myotonic dystrophy which is characterized by degrading muscles and severe baldness. Wouldnt a weak muscles apply less tension?

Also how about babies whos hair grow in reverse mpb.
The patterning has more like to do with the development of growth and blood flow.

 

[GorillaHead]

@Sweet Meat

I am going to say this. There is something interesting about the tension theory.
Perhaps the tension theory only applies to the hairline.

i mean why does the hairline change as we mature. Even in men who do not bald they get what us called a mature hairline. Whats happening here to induce that. Perhaps if we can understand that mechanism then maybe that mechanism is over expressed in some resulting in full baldness

 

[Sweet Meat]

in terms of people losing hair on the nape or sides. This is actually not areata. The safe zone is very small on the head. In very advanced aga men will lose the hair and thin on the nape. This has been observed by many doctors and transplant surgeons hence why this diagram shows the safe zone is so small.

View attachment 26288

ok, well i can only speak from personal experience but i spend "a lot" of time people watching and i notice those with severe hair loss have such tight occipitalis muscles, that i can often see them from a distance. when i am stressed, i can feel mine - when i am VERY stressed, they get so tense it hurts my head, which hasn't happened in years. these muscles and the muscles running between the ears, just below the occipitalis, are the only one's i associate with hair loss, because they pull the scalp/hair line and just 1-2days massage really changes the entire environment of my scalp

something as simple as foot placement while walking, which can cause acute damage to the knees, will actually cause chronic damage to the scalp/hair line because the skull mechanically wants to roll forward to compensate for poor balance, obligating the aforementioned muscles to contract, sometimes indefinitely, just to prevent it doing so.

lets assume your tension theory is correct then your saying the solution is to relax the muscles? How come in diseases like myotonic dystrophy which is characterized by degrading muscles and severe baldness. Wouldnt a weak muscles apply less tension?

i would need to read into the nature of the disease, but generally speaking weak muscles are more tense - they still do the job, just far less efficiently, and i imagine they would also have a harder time relaxing, too.
think of holding something heavy away from your body - at first it'll be np, but very quickly the muscles will expend their reserve glycogen and the strength will fade - you can continue holding onto the object, but it will get shakier and shakier, and the longer you do it, the more pain the arm will be in once you let go. weak muscles tend to get stronger through microtears that force them to grow, so i imagine if dystrophy is taking place, the muscle continues to operate, just poorly

Also how about babies whos hair grow in reverse mpb.
The patterning has more like to do with the development of growth and blood flow.

i think babies hair has more to do with the state of the womb. while some babies have full heads of hair at birth, i believe they grow in such a way as to reduce hair growth until such time that they are ready to leave the womb, otherwise they would be shedding inside. i know progesterone and CO2 are both very high in the womb and i can imagine either might actually hinder growth, despite being generally protective of the baby

i mean why does the hairline change as we mature. Even in men who do not bald they get what us called a mature hairline. Whats happening here to induce that. Perhaps if we can understand that mechanism then maybe that mechanism is over expressed in some resulting in full baldness

some men maintain their adolescent hair lines, but generally speaking the more you grow, the more room there is for minor mechanical stresses to occur; like i said, something as simple as walking incorrectly, or sitting incorrectly can actually cause severe structural damage over time, and unfortunately it will be overexpressed in the scalp, simply because that's where the buck stops, in terms of tension

females have much better posture because they are smaller, have wider hips, tend to wear high heels often, and they have breasts that they want to show off, so they have a far easier time keeping themselves straight and minimizing tension

add to this the progesterone theory, and any stress they do suffer is unlikely to be compounded by dht-induced scar tissue, so hair loss won't occur even if the woman is morbidly obese and eating nothing but chalk...give a tall, skinny dude a few years of poor habits and ***t diet, though...i'd wager he will start to lose his hair very quickly unless there is something else preventing it (alcoholism, for example, which makes people so relaxed they are statistically less likely to die in a car crash because the alcohol relaxes the muscles so much)

 

[Progesterone]

ok, well i can only speak from personal experience but i spend "a lot" of time people watching and i notice those with severe hair loss have such tight occipitalis muscles, that i can often see them from a distance. when i am stressed, i can feel mine - when i am VERY stressed, they get so tense it hurts my head, which hasn't happened in years. these muscles and the muscles running between the ears, just below the occipitalis, are the only one's i associate with hair loss, because they pull the scalp/hair line and just 1-2days massage really changes the entire environment of my scalp

something as simple as foot placement while walking, which can cause acute damage to the knees, will actually cause chronic damage to the scalp/hair line because the skull mechanically wants to roll forward to compensate for poor balance, obligating the aforementioned muscles to contract, sometimes indefinitely, just to prevent it doing so.




i would need to read into the nature of the disease, but generally speaking weak muscles are more tense - they still do the job, just far less efficiently, and i imagine they would also have a harder time relaxing, too.
think of holding something heavy away from your body - at first it'll be np, but very quickly the muscles will expend their reserve glycogen and the strength will fade - you can continue holding onto the object, but it will get shakier and shakier, and the longer you do it, the more pain the arm will be in once you let go. weak muscles tend to get stronger through microtears that force them to grow, so i imagine if dystrophy is taking place, the muscle continues to operate, just poorly



i think babies hair has more to do with the state of the womb. while some babies have full heads of hair at birth, i believe they grow in such a way as to reduce hair growth until such time that they are ready to leave the womb, otherwise they would be shedding inside. i know progesterone and CO2 are both very high in the womb and i can imagine either might actually hinder growth, despite being generally protective of the baby


some men maintain their adolescent hair lines, but generally speaking the more you grow, the more room there is for minor mechanical stresses to occur; like i said, something as simple as walking incorrectly, or sitting incorrectly can actually cause severe structural damage over time, and unfortunately it will be overexpressed in the scalp, simply because that's where the buck stops, in terms of tension

females have much better posture because they are smaller, have wider hips, tend to wear high heels often, and they have breasts that they want to show off, so they have a far easier time keeping themselves straight and minimizing tension

add to this the progesterone theory, and any stress they do suffer is unlikely to be compounded by dht-induced scar tissue, so hair loss won't occur even if the woman is morbidly obese and eating nothing but chalk...give a tall, skinny dude a few years of poor habits and ***t diet, though...i'd wager he will start to lose his hair very quickly unless there is something else preventing it (alcoholism, for example, which makes people so relaxed they are statistically less likely to die in a car crash because the alcohol relaxes the muscles so much)

What do you mean by the "progesterone theory" ?

 

[Sweet Meat]

What do you mean by the "progesterone theory" ?

people argue that women have naturally higher progesterone than men, thus the progesterone protects them from all the inexplicable horrors of hair loss

i don't know if that is 100% true, except during pregnancy, however IF it is true and women do have naturally higher levels of progesterone, then in theory the progesterone would counter act the effects of chronically elevated dht, and chronic levels of dht lead to scar tissue, which always leads to hair loss

 

[rr1]

ok, well i can only speak from personal experience but i spend "a lot" of time people watching and i notice those with severe hair loss have such tight occipitalis muscles, that i can often see them from a distance. when i am stressed, i can feel mine - when i am VERY stressed, they get so tense it hurts my head, which hasn't happened in years. these muscles and the muscles running between the ears, just below the occipitalis, are the only one's i associate with hair loss, because they pull the scalp/hair line and just 1-2days massage really changes the entire environment of my scalp

something as simple as foot placement while walking, which can cause acute damage to the knees, will actually cause chronic damage to the scalp/hair line because the skull mechanically wants to roll forward to compensate for poor balance, obligating the aforementioned muscles to contract, sometimes indefinitely, just to prevent it doing so.




i would need to read into the nature of the disease, but generally speaking weak muscles are more tense - they still do the job, just far less efficiently, and i imagine they would also have a harder time relaxing, too.
think of holding something heavy away from your body - at first it'll be np, but very quickly the muscles will expend their reserve glycogen and the strength will fade - you can continue holding onto the object, but it will get shakier and shakier, and the longer you do it, the more pain the arm will be in once you let go. weak muscles tend to get stronger through microtears that force them to grow, so i imagine if dystrophy is taking place, the muscle continues to operate, just poorly



i think babies hair has more to do with the state of the womb. while some babies have full heads of hair at birth, i believe they grow in such a way as to reduce hair growth until such time that they are ready to leave the womb, otherwise they would be shedding inside. i know progesterone and CO2 are both very high in the womb and i can imagine either might actually hinder growth, despite being generally protective of the baby


some men maintain their adolescent hair lines, but generally speaking the more you grow, the more room there is for minor mechanical stresses to occur; like i said, something as simple as walking incorrectly, or sitting incorrectly can actually cause severe structural damage over time, and unfortunately it will be overexpressed in the scalp, simply because that's where the buck stops, in terms of tension

females have much better posture because they are smaller, have wider hips, tend to wear high heels often, and they have breasts that they want to show off, so they have a far easier time keeping themselves straight and minimizing tension

add to this the progesterone theory, and any stress they do suffer is unlikely to be compounded by dht-induced scar tissue, so hair loss won't occur even if the woman is morbidly obese and eating nothing but chalk...give a tall, skinny dude a few years of poor habits and ***t diet, though...i'd wager he will start to lose his hair very quickly unless there is something else preventing it (alcoholism, for example, which makes people so relaxed they are statistically less likely to die in a car crash because the alcohol relaxes the muscles so much)

I can agree with most of this. well at least noticed the same things in myself.

 

[GorillaHead]

I want to bring up a new idea for this thread not touched upon.

In my research I decided to focus on children with AgA 14-16 year olds.

One feature that stood out to me was they often had sebboreic dermatitis.

Myotonic dystrophy type 1 also high prevalence of sebboreic dermatatitis mainly in men And twisted hair

Parkinson's disease which shares some genetic relationship to AGA. Also high prevalence of sebboric dermatitis.

My own experience with dandruff was that it was localized to just my hairline. The back of my head where hair loss is so called immune. Had zero flaking. But my hairline suffered from sebboriec dermatitis. Very very odd.

Sebboric dermatitis treatments have been shown to regrow peoples hair in AGA.

I think there is a huge part that dermatitis plays with AGA specifically in men.

 

[Jonnie]

I want to bring up a new idea for this thread not touched upon.

In my research I decided to focus on children with AgA 14-16 year olds.

One feature that stood out to me was they often had sebboreic dermatitis.

Myotonic dystrophy type 1 also high prevalence of sebboreic dermatatitis mainly in men And twisted hair

Parkinson's disease which shares some genetic relationship to AGA. Also high prevalence of sebboric dermatitis.

My own experience with dandruff was that it was localized to just my hairline. The back of my head where hair loss is so called immune. Had zero flaking. But my hairline suffered from sebboriec dermatitis. Very very odd.

Sebboric dermatitis treatments have been shown to regrow peoples hair in AGA.

I think there is a huge part that dermatitis plays with AGA specifically in men.

I got most my receiding during age 14-16. No sebboric dermatitis though.
Meanwhile my flanky 6'4 friend with sebboric dermatitis has the best hairline one could wish for.
All anecdotal stuff ofcourse.

At that age I did seem very hypometabolic and was high cortisol, bad posture too.
I'm lucky my hairline didn't get much worse in over a decade. I guess I halted it.

In my view MPB is the expression of accumulation of stress in an individual with certain characteristics/patterns/behaviours and a certain history.

- I think posture/scalp tension is one of them @Sweet Meat

- Prolonged stress/hypometabolism another one.

- Infection, bacterial, fungal (i.e. in the gut or scalp) another one and likely caused by the prolonged stress on the individual too.

These 3 all feed into each other and/or can cascade from one to the next.

So from this viewpoint it's very individual as to what needs to be addressed first or what the main issues were that started the negative feedback loop.

 

[Jonnie]

.

 

[GorillaHead]

Relationship between the exercise and severity of androgenic alopecia - PubMed

Doing aerobic exercise or each exercise time >60 min helps to delay the progress of AGA and improve the symptom of AGA.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Inaut]

ok, well i can only speak from personal experience but i spend "a lot" of time people watching and i notice those with severe hair loss have such tight occipitalis muscles, that i can often see them from a distance. when i am stressed, i can feel mine - when i am VERY stressed, they get so tense it hurts my head, which hasn't happened in years. these muscles and the muscles running between the ears, just below the occipitalis, are the only one's i associate with hair loss, because they pull the scalp/hair line and just 1-2days massage really changes the entire environment of my scalp

something as simple as foot placement while walking, which can cause acute damage to the knees, will actually cause chronic damage to the scalp/hair line because the skull mechanically wants to roll forward to compensate for poor balance, obligating the aforementioned muscles to contract, sometimes indefinitely, just to prevent it doing so.




i would need to read into the nature of the disease, but generally speaking weak muscles are more tense - they still do the job, just far less efficiently, and i imagine they would also have a harder time relaxing, too.
think of holding something heavy away from your body - at first it'll be np, but very quickly the muscles will expend their reserve glycogen and the strength will fade - you can continue holding onto the object, but it will get shakier and shakier, and the longer you do it, the more pain the arm will be in once you let go. weak muscles tend to get stronger through microtears that force them to grow, so i imagine if dystrophy is taking place, the muscle continues to operate, just poorly



i think babies hair has more to do with the state of the womb. while some babies have full heads of hair at birth, i believe they grow in such a way as to reduce hair growth until such time that they are ready to leave the womb, otherwise they would be shedding inside. i know progesterone and CO2 are both very high in the womb and i can imagine either might actually hinder growth, despite being generally protective of the baby


some men maintain their adolescent hair lines, but generally speaking the more you grow, the more room there is for minor mechanical stresses to occur; like i said, something as simple as walking incorrectly, or sitting incorrectly can actually cause severe structural damage over time, and unfortunately it will be overexpressed in the scalp, simply because that's where the buck stops, in terms of tension

females have much better posture because they are smaller, have wider hips, tend to wear high heels often, and they have breasts that they want to show off, so they have a far easier time keeping themselves straight and minimizing tension

add to this the progesterone theory, and any stress they do suffer is unlikely to be compounded by dht-induced scar tissue, so hair loss won't occur even if the woman is morbidly obese and eating nothing but chalk...give a tall, skinny dude a few years of poor habits and ***t diet, though...i'd wager he will start to lose his hair very quickly unless there is something else preventing it (alcoholism, for example, which makes people so relaxed they are statistically less likely to die in a car crash because the alcohol relaxes the muscles so much)

Good post. I’m sure @rei would also agree with a lot

 

[Progesterone]

Relationship between the exercise and severity of androgenic alopecia - PubMed

Doing aerobic exercise or each exercise time >60 min helps to delay the progress of AGA and improve the symptom of AGA.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Interesting..

 

[rei]

Good post. I’m sure @rei would also agree with a lot

haha, yes i do for the most part. Just that the issue is not limited to only the occipital, but the whole tensegrity network, and scalp tension is just the natural outcome of most injuries of it, it is after all the only thing that supports the superficial (skin) network from the top.

And the woman vs. man thing is probably mainly due to DHT, as it makes your fascia resist and double up against chronic or excessive stress, while progesterone makes it adapt and embrace or become malleable to it. Resisting and doubling up results in adhesions and fibrosis, while embracing results in stretching.

But there is also truth in that men tend to balance bad posture with a forward head, while women have breasts that help in this way partially. Modern cell phone lifestyle will result in a novel disease called WPB in the future though because never before have also they been "forced" to adapt to forward head posture in similar manner.

 

[Mossy]

nikola jokic...has...maybe some skill

I realize this is a hair lose thread, but holy cow that statement!

In your defense, if you would’ve stopped at the unathletic part, your point would’ve been made and mostly accurate. But you interrupted the space-time continuum in the NBA Cosmos after that. All that will save you now is a DeLorean, a bolt of lighting, and Doc Brown.

I won’t derail any further; that’s all I have to say.

 

[Dr. B]

Anti-androgenetic alopecia effect of policosanol from Chinese wax by regulating abnormal hormone levels to suppress premature hair follicle entry into the regression phase - PubMed

Previously, we have demonstrated that policosanol from Chinese wax suppressed testosterone(T)-induced alopecia in mice. However, the underlying mechanism remained to be determined. Herein, we investigated the mechanism of policosanol against androgenetic alopecia (AGA). AGA was induced in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

@yerrag

 

[JDreamer]

Quick observation:

Any time I've taken adderall recreationally (which isn't very often) I've always noticed that very next day my hair has volume and lift to it. It feels like it has life rather than on most days when it's dry, dull, and hard to style. Anyone else have that experience?

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Anti-androgenetic alopecia effect of policosanol from Chinese wax by regulating abnormal hormone levels to suppress premature hair follicle entry into the regression phase - PubMed

Previously, we have demonstrated that policosanol from Chinese wax suppressed testosterone(T)-induced alopecia in mice. However, the underlying mechanism remained to be determined. Herein, we investigated the mechanism of policosanol against androgenetic alopecia (AGA). AGA was induced in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

@yerrag

Everyone here thinks Policosanol's the best thing ever. Over on HLT people pasted it on their heads to inhibit 5AR.

As someone who is recovering from PFS I got brutally ****88 up by doing that. Had vertigo and worsened brain fog for days.

If you're sensitive to 5AR inhibitors, stay away. I wrote about my experience with it but got reamed out here because people didn't like hearing about it.

And no, I wouldn't eat it either.

 

[Charger]

Quick observation:

Any time I've taken adderall recreationally (which isn't very often) I've always noticed that very next day my hair has volume and lift to it. It feels like it has life rather than on most days when it's dry, dull, and hard to style. Anyone else have that experience?

Never used Adderall, but a coworker of mine basically can't live without it and is doing pretty good on the hair(line) front for his age at 31 in an industry where most men are bald or have visible recession/thinning. (Construction)

Normally I'd attribute it to a rise in dopamine, but dopaminergics in general, especially when it spills over into adrenaline, tends to be bad for hair in my experience. I've also read more anecdotes that Adderall speeds up hair loss rather than mitigates it, your post is probably the first I've seen implying otherwise.

 

[GorillaHead]

Quick observation:

Any time I've taken adderall recreationally (which isn't very often) I've always noticed that very next day my hair has volume and lift to it. It feels like it has life rather than on most days when it's dry, dull, and hard to style. Anyone else have that experience?

Complete opposite experience most people report hairloss on a drug related to meth

 

[Dr. B]

Everyone here thinks Policosanol's the best thing ever. Over on HLT people pasted it on their heads to inhibit 5AR.

As someone who is recovering from PFS I got brutally ****88 up by doing that. Had vertigo and worsened brain fog for days.

If you're sensitive to 5AR inhibitors, stay away. I wrote about my experience with it but got reamed out here because people didn't like hearing about it.

And no, I wouldn't eat it either.

which one did you use? is beeswax and sugarcane policosanol still 5AR inhibiting? is it estrogenic, or anti estrogenic? 20mg doesnt seem to give any estrogenic effects