Hair loss ThinkTank. Passionate and or Intellectual People

[EmperorOfMan]

@Ben. The guy from that video didn't even have MPB. That's just diffuse thinning. His temples didn't move an inch.

wait are you implying that diffuse thinning is a completely different phenomena than MBP? i thought they were different manifestations of the same thing? sorry im a noob here

 

[GorillaHead]

wait are you implying that diffuse thinning is a completely different phenomena than MBP? i thought they were different manifestations of the same thing? sorry im a noob here

They can be. There are numerous causes of hairloss. even diffuse

 

[EmperorOfMan]

They can be. There are numerous causes of hairloss. even diffuse

what is the most common cause of diffuse hairloss?

 

[Progesterone]

Actually my hair transplant surgeon told me not to use red light! And in the post-op packet it said red light causes subcutaneous fibrosis.

Um.

What??????

 

[Progesterone]

I would encourage you to abandon the DHT theory. It's completely wrong and I can explain to you why. I would also encourage you to continue with massaging and anything that will increase blood flow to the microvasculature of the scalp and break up fibrosis. I've explained on various forums (probably here, as well) why finasteride and 5a-reductase antagonists, in general, work/don't work and why hair loss occurs. I can't keep track of everywhere I've talked about this or what posts I've made that bring the most clarity, but I'll quote a post I made on another forum a day ago. It was in regard to a guy that didn't really have hair loss, but, rather mild temporal recession, and took dutasteride out of fear of progression and ended up losing a severe amount of hair in areas he wasn't even experiencing loss (crown, and frontal). If you have any questions or would like citation for any specific claims I make, let me know. I don't say any of this because I'm just guessing. I've experimented on myself for over a decade to verify the claims that I've made and it all started with what seemed to be paradoxical behavior of finasteride... my hair would completely cease from falling out and the hair shaft diameter would nearly double in size within only a few weeks of starting finasteride and then it would stay that way for around a week and then taper off, going back to thin and shedding. I couldn't explain this, so I would let myself recover from finasteride and then cycle back on again. Each time I cycled back on, I would experiment with a different pharmaceutical or steroid in parallel to try and figure out what exactly was responsible for this paradox.

Anyway, here's that post:

Very interesting post, thanks.

Are you an advocate for LLLT for scalp? 655nm wavelength..

 

[Progesterone]

Hopefully someone can help me, because I've been having severe depression over this since early 2020, and literally have stressed so hard I literally gave myself Pericarditis and ended up at the doc.

I used a manual dermastamp 1.5mm from owndoc (12 needle) for 3 months total, once per week. I used it with too much aggression and too much time overall per session. After 3 months I noticed hair thinning all over, including transplanted areas. I stopped in mid Feb 2020. What I'm really seeing and experiencing I believe is scarring all over, and of course thinning from the dermastamp cutting the hair in some instances. I used this all over my head, including donor area.

Hair is recovering somewhat, and I recently started using OMG LLLT helmet (400 laser diodes, 655nm) 3-4 times a week.

My hairline is all transplanted and the left side of that took the biggest hit, but ALL over took a hit... it is all slowly recovering however I don't think all of it will recover fully, which is extremely difficult for me to take; the fact that I did this to myself.

What should I do? What can I do? I'm thinking LLLT can only help. Anything else I can try?

 

[Ben.]

what is the most common cause of diffuse hairloss?

I would think it is one of thoose:

nutritional deficencies / digestive issue or something else not allowing for proper assimilation/utilizitation
energy metabolism impairment
bloodflow/lymph obstruction
calcification
hormonal issue

Now they can be interrelated and i think pointing to a cause somewhere (genes?lifestyle?injury?poisioning?) is very individual.
but i think and agree with gorilla heads comment, it says it all essentially. Numerous causes for either condition.


Random question: Have you guys noticed a correlation with the speed of woundhealing and hairloss? I started to experience both issues occuring at a similar time.

 

[Jonnie]

Hopefully someone can help me, because I've been having severe depression over this since early 2020, and literally have stressed so hard I literally gave myself Pericarditis and ended up at the doc.

I used a manual dermastamp 1.5mm from owndoc (12 needle) for 3 months total, once per week. I used it with too much aggression and too much time overall per session. After 3 months I noticed hair thinning all over, including transplanted areas. I stopped in mid Feb 2020. What I'm really seeing and experiencing I believe is scarring all over, and of course thinning from the dermastamp cutting the hair in some instances. I used this all over my head, including donor area.

Hair is recovering somewhat, and I recently started using OMG LLLT helmet (400 laser diodes, 655nm) 3-4 times a week.

My hairline is all transplanted and the left side of that took the biggest hit, but ALL over took a hit... it is all slowly recovering however I don't think all of it will recover fully, which is extremely difficult for me to take; the fact that I did this to myself.

What should I do? What can I do? I'm thinking LLLT can only help. Anything else I can try?

Just for a while, you could drop the subject completely. Try it for a few weeks even a month, stop looking at yourself in the mirror too much and focus on good foods and maybe some other things you feel are necessary.

This could help with your depression.

However, if you can't let it go, keep going and try everything you can untill you reach a point of success, exhaustion or somewhere in between.

As for anything practical to help you with actual hairloss... I got nothing that's not already mentioned, but I'd say depression and stress could make it worse, being in that state might be a benefactor of hairloss in the first place.

I'd say posture is really important to work on too, regardless.

 

[EmperorOfMan]

I would think it is one of thoose:

nutritional deficencies / digestive issue or something else not allowing for proper assimilation/utilizitation
energy metabolism impairment
bloodflow/lymph obstruction
calcification
hormonal issue

Now they can be interrelated and i think pointing to a cause somewhere (genes?lifestyle?injury?poisioning?) is very individual.
but i think and agree with gorilla heads comment, it says it all essentially. Numerous causes for either condition.


Random question: Have you guys noticed a correlation with the speed of woundhealing and hairloss? I started to experience both issues occuring at a similar time.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

 

[Progesterone]

natural inhibitors of 5AR are usually competitive partial agonists and they do not denature the structure of the enzyme or cause permanent/semi-permanent disruption of the regulatory feedback loop which governs 5AR expression. 5AR antagonists like finasteride or dutasteride cause malfunction from multiple angles. They bind 5AR with high affinity and render the enzyme essentially useless until the body synthesizes new enzyme. They also interfere with HPTA regulation of gonadotropins and pituitary hormones. some natural inhibitors of 5AR may perhaps give you side effects (think saw palmetto), but they will generally subside shortly after discontinuation of their use.

I hope to see more of your posts.

They are fantastic, thank you.

 

[tallglass13]

Um.

What??????

I know , right!? I doesn't make a lot of sense. Also, many clinics have red lasers in their practice. IRestore seems to get some regrowth, but very little and hard to tell a difference on there clients if you look closely. But Alvi Armani seems to have a strong NO LASER policy, for over 15 years now.

 

[Progesterone]

I know , right!? I doesn't make a lot of sense. Also, many clinics have red lasers in their practice. IRestore seems to get some regrowth, but very little and hard to tell a difference on there clients if you look closely. But Alvi Armani seems to have a strong NO LASER policy, for over 15 years now.

What the heck....

He is a top guy.

No laser for ANYONE or just if you had a transplant?

This is crazy..... can you speak more about this?

Doesn't make sense given all the positive studies about it....

 

[Progesterone]

I would encourage you to abandon the DHT theory. It's completely wrong and I can explain to you why. I would also encourage you to continue with massaging and anything that will increase blood flow to the microvasculature of the scalp and break up fibrosis. I've explained on various forums (probably here, as well) why finasteride and 5a-reductase antagonists, in general, work/don't work and why hair loss occurs. I can't keep track of everywhere I've talked about this or what posts I've made that bring the most clarity, but I'll quote a post I made on another forum a day ago. It was in regard to a guy that didn't really have hair loss, but, rather mild temporal recession, and took dutasteride out of fear of progression and ended up losing a severe amount of hair in areas he wasn't even experiencing loss (crown, and frontal). If you have any questions or would like citation for any specific claims I make, let me know. I don't say any of this because I'm just guessing. I've experimented on myself for over a decade to verify the claims that I've made and it all started with what seemed to be paradoxical behavior of finasteride... my hair would completely cease from falling out and the hair shaft diameter would nearly double in size within only a few weeks of starting finasteride and then it would stay that way for around a week and then taper off, going back to thin and shedding. I couldn't explain this, so I would let myself recover from finasteride and then cycle back on again. Each time I cycled back on, I would experiment with a different pharmaceutical or steroid in parallel to try and figure out what exactly was responsible for this paradox.

Anyway, here's that post:

Do you feel like progesterone is good to supplement for hair?

Anything else you would recommend? LLLT?

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

In

Have you ever thought of it being a neurological issue that also has to do with the person's character?

Have a look at pro gamers, most of these guys have "gamer hairlines", they have receided hairlines mostly at the temples and they're all below 30 years of age.
And when they don't already have it they usually develop it within a few years... It's a trend I've noticed and I used to be a gamer since the age of 12.

Anecdotally, getting adrenaline rushes during gaming pumps you full of adrenaline and cortisol while being completely stagnant in a seating position... It's a very unnatural thing to experience fighting people on a battlefield while sitting and moving just your wrists and fingers.

To me it feels like an overstimulation of the frontal lobe while I get completely immersed in the game and forget about my surroundings.

The gamers I know that don't have recession seem to be unable to completely immerse in the game and kind of stay relaxed, a certain character trait if you will..

Maybe it's the mixture of high cortisol with excess frontal lobe stimulation and lack of movement that can cause recession. Combined with characteral susceptibility and lifestyle, foods, sleep etc.

Just thinking out loud here

I agree, although it’s probably more complex (hormonal profile, pufa, childhood stress, nutrition, erc).

 

[GorillaHead]

I am just going to share this because if there are any people here thinking hairloss is caused by “scalp tension”. Expansion. And ***t.
This should end the conversation completely.
Sagittal Skull Surgery for Peaked Head Shape | Dr. Eppley

These surgeons would've discovered by now that hair would grow if they reduced and augmented skull shape which would theoretically alter and or reduce tension on the galea tremendously

 

[Sweet Meat]

I am just going to share this because if there are any people here thinking hairloss is caused by “scalp tension”. Expansion. And ***t.
This should end the conversation completely.
Sagittal Skull Surgery for Peaked Head Shape | Dr. Eppley

These surgeons would've discovered by now that hair would grow if they reduced and augmented skull shape which would theoretically alter and or reduce tension on the galea tremendously

you're assuming that reducing a malformation the size of a walnut is going to relieve "tremendous" tension on something that is at the very least, fifty times larger (the skull), having chronic force exerted on it from a machine that in all likelihood weighs over 180 lbs at least?

why? it does literally nothing to affect the muscles around the galea which would be directly causing the tension, nor does it do anything to address the structural issues that would result in tense muscles, to begin with

i don't really care what causes hair loss, but if you're so certain it's not scalp tension, can you at least explain why local botox in the scalp muscles cures male pattern baldness, if it's got nothing to do with muscles or tension? that might be an easier way to end the conversation completely

 

[GorillaHead]

you're assuming that reducing a malformation the size of a walnut is going to relieve "tremendous" tension on something that is at the very least, fifty times larger (the skull), having chronic force exerted on it from a machine that in all likelihood weighs over 180 lbs at least?

why? it does literally nothing to affect the muscles around the galea which would be directly causing the tension, nor does it do anything to address the structural issues that would result in tense muscles, to begin with

i don't really care what causes hair loss, but if you're so certain it's not scalp tension, can you at least explain why local botox in the scalp muscles cures male pattern baldness, if it's got nothing to do with muscles or tension? that might be an easier way to end the conversation completely

If it cures baldness every single man would be getting botox in their scalp not a hair transplant and tons of surgeons would be exploiting it. Just cause a study showed results doesnt necessarily mean it works. Not a single person has dropped an online anecdote on a Hairloss forum as far as i know has claimed botox stopped their hairloss. And they are trying all sorts of crazy ***t there.

 

[Sweet Meat]

If it cures baldness every single man would be getting botox in their scalp not a hair transplant and tons of surgeons would be exploiting it.

chum, a guy on this forum told me just last month that if massaging his head for 20mins could reduce his nw7 to nw0, he wouldn't do it, because it was too much effort and he shouldn't have to do that when other people didn't have to lol....so i really don't think "every guy would do it if it were that easy" logic is going to put this conversation to bed.

also;

why would surgeons exploit something which a nurse can perform in 30mins? surely it would put them out of business?

it's also hard to market something that requires seasonal injections and ostensibly undermines an entire pharmaceutical industry

Just cause a study showed results doesnt necessarily mean it works.

ok, so we just discredit the evidence, pretend it's not there, and that's that.

Not a single person has dropped an online anecdote on a Hairloss forum as far as i know has claimed botox stopped their hairloss. And they are trying all sorts of crazy ***t there.

plenty of people have provided years of pictures and anecdotes related to scalp massages and mechanotherapy, though...which ostensibly achieve the same thing as botox, just in a less invasive manner

you are trying to poke holes in this theory, and your strategy is to discredit the actual evidence presented as irrelevant, then conclude that because you can't find any anecdotes backing up the evidence which you already discredited...that the whole theory has now been debunked.

 

[GorillaHead]

chum, a guy on this forum told me just last month that if massaging his head for 20mins could reduce his nw7 to nw0, he wouldn't do it, because it was too much effort and he shouldn't have to do that when other people didn't have to lol....so i really don't think "every guy would do it if it were that easy" logic is going to put this conversation to bed.

also;

why would surgeons exploit something which a nurse can perform in 30mins? surely it would put them out of business?

it's also hard to market something that requires seasonal injections and ostensibly undermines an entire pharmaceutical industry




ok, so we just discredit the evidence, pretend it's not there, and that's that.



plenty of people have provided years of pictures and anecdotes related to scalp massages and mechanotherapy, though...which ostensibly achieve the same thing as botox, just in a less invasive manner

you are trying to poke holes in this theory, and your strategy is to discredit the actual evidence presented as irrelevant, then conclude that because you can't find any anecdotes backing up the evidence which you already discredited...that the whole theory has now been debunked.

i am not poking holes in the theory. There are holes in it. Where is your empirical data?

there is resesrch that shows under stretch hair follicles get thicker. This wasnt a theory it was observed in a lab environment.
Theres also the fact people thin on their napes and on the sides their head where the muscle sits. How does mechanical stress apply there?
Also the AGA botox studies used 150 units. Do you realize how much that costs and how easy it is. The work per profit ratio is way better. And its not as permanent it goes away after 6 months. Do the math man. Botox is way more profitable than hair transplants. People have to keep coming in. The risks are lower.

The only place ive really seen concrete “evidence” of people claiming hair growth from massages are from a website run by rob. Who is hardcore shilling and that guy happens to have a full head of hair as in he doesnt seem to have ever suffered from AGA.

there is so much bogus information and studies on AGA for profit. AGA is one the most highly exploited industries full of snake oil.

Also idk how u can discredit the skull surgeries i showed and say that it does nothing to address the structural so called muscles tension.

take two people pulling on a rope opposing each other. Add a third in the middle pushing the rope up the amount of stress on that third middle individual would be significant and if this theory had merit people would lose hair in those areas..

If scalp massages do work its because they work on increasing blood flow which has also been shown empirically in muscle or because studies show that stretch causes hair to thicken

 

[Sweet Meat]

i am not poking holes in the theory. There are holes in it. Where is your empirical data?

tissue tension = inflammation

inflamed tissue = more dht for anti-inflammation

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onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Androgen receptors in Dupuytren's contracture - PubMed

Palmar fascia tissue and cultured cells from patients with Dupuytren's contracture and from normal subjects were characterized and analyzed for androgen receptor expression. Androgen receptors have never been studied in Dupuytren's myofibroblasts and may have a role in its high male...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Pressure effects on cellular systems: Is there a link with benign prostatic hyperplasia?

Pressure is instrumental in the formation and remodeling of tissues. In humans, pressure varies from the positive pressure wave in the circulatory system to the negative pressure of the thoracic cavity. Measurements in the prostate, of normal and disease states, have shown elevated pressures...

www.goldjournal.net

while dht causes hair growth in tissues normally, when tissue is under chronic stress, as in the above examples, the dht activates the protein tgf1-b and creates fibrosis to protect the tissue

Inui S, Itami S.Androgen actions on the human hair follicle: perspectives. Exp Dermatol 22:168-171 | Request PDF

Request PDF | Inui S, Itami S.Androgen actions on the human hair follicle: perspectives. Exp Dermatol 22:168-171 | Androgens stimulate beard growth but suppress hair growth in androgenetic alopecia (AGA). This condition is known as 'androgen paradox'. Human... | Find, read and cite all the...

www.researchgate.net

fibrosis is known to inhibit hair growth anywhere on the body, because it inhibits bloodflow/oxygen to the hair shaft and mechanically, it reduces the area in which the hair can grow. i have a scar along my jaw line from a dog bite and though i have thick dark hair, that scar is still visible under stubble

there's also heavy empirical data proving that male pattern baldness ALWAYS follows the path of maximum tension

Involvement of Mechanical Stress in Androgenetic Alopecia

Androgenetic alopecia (AGA) is a frequent disorder characterized by progressive hair miniaturization in a very similar pattern among all affected men. The pathogenesis is related to androgen-inducible overexpression of transforming growth factor β-1 ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

that is, no matter what your skull shape, depending on where the tensile apex is, that is where you, personally, will begin to lose your hair - whatever else might start that cascade, the tension maximizes inflammation in that area, which causes dht to overexpress itself to protect the tissue, thereby causing fibrosis and swelling, reducing oxygenation and ultimately suffocating the hair follicle.

there is resesrch that shows under stretch hair follicles get thicker. This wasnt a theory it was observed in a lab environment.

i don't know what this means

can you elaborate? if you mean pulling your hair is good for your hair, i agree \o/

Theres also the fact people thin on their napes and on the sides their head where the muscle sits. How does mechanical stress apply there?

that sounds like areata. if it's not pattern hair loss, then it's not pattern hair loss. falling out in patches etc seems far more like an autoimmune disease

if you mean people eventually lose hair all over the hair, like a chemo patient - i have never, ever seen that

Also the AGA botox studies used 150 units. Do you realize how much that costs and how easy it is. The work per profit ratio is way better. And its not as permanent it goes away after 6 months. Do the math man. Botox is way more profitable than hair transplants. People have to keep coming in. The risks are lower.

agreed, but like i said - people wouldn't even take a free solution. the fact is, most people want a pill, because it's easy and they don't have to do anything except open up.

The only place ive really seen concrete “evidence” of people claiming hair growth from massages are from a website run by rob. Who is hardcore shilling and that guy happens to have a full head of hair as in he doesnt seem to have ever suffered from AGA.

isn't there even another guy who went about "activating" the muscles via exercises, who also produced years of results? there are a lot of anecdotes online - years ago i found a compilation of people who were massaging and dermarolling, and some were phenomenal

there is so much bogus information and studies on AGA for profit. AGA is one the most highly exploited industries full of snake oil.

yes but common sense and logical discussion tend to keep them at bay. using one study to discredit another, is neither.

Also idk how u can discredit the skull surgeries i showed and say that it does nothing to address the structural so called muscles tension.

take two people pulling on a rope opposing each other. Add a third in the middle pushing the rope up the amount of stress on that third middle individual would be significant and if this theory had merit people would lose hair in those areas..

imagine your head is a balloon and your scalp is a towel. now imagine you put a bouncy ball under the towel, resting on the balloon. do you think the bouncy ball is going to affect the tensile strength required to burst the balloon, by pulling on the towel?

it'll be the same, because the stress is being dissipated by the larger surface area of the balloon, and the bouncy ball, though appearing distinct, is largely negligible.

If scalp massages do work its because they work on increasing blood flow which has also been shown empirically in muscle or because studies show that stretch causes hair to thicken

they also reduce inflammation, edema and fibrosis, three key things associated with mpb

i also know from personal experience that my scalp feels like playdoh normally, unless i eat a lot of fat or sit at the computer too long, then it becomes thick and hard and almost has a feel like pins and needles, the same way, i might get from sitting on my hands and restricting blood flow.