Peat Eating And Weight Gain

[nwo2012]

It would be best, if looking to lose weight, to ensure your thyroid is fully functional before going overboard on sugar consumption. Find that amount that is just enough not to go hypoglycaemic or to give a release of adrenalin (in terms of balancing the protein). Extra salt should help too, can probably lower the sugar intake more without release of adrenalin. Also small nibbles of T3 throughout the day (3 hours appart so as not to suppress endogenous supply) should help too.

Also using DNP (2,4-dinitrophenol) is a great way to lose bodyfat. It boosts the BMR in a very quick and effective manner. I have used it very effectively in the past.
Best saved for use during winter as you can get very hot!

You will find many studies showing it's worth but also the net is full of warnings (especially from governmental agencies) of its supposed ability to cause oxidative stress. I posed this to RP. His reply:

It reduces lipid peroxidation, which is the main sign of oxidative stress; I think reductive stress is the bigger danger, and uncouplers like T3 and DNP seem to protect against that.

Acta Physiol Scand. 1992 Jun;145(2):159-68.
Comparison of the effect of a mitochondrial uncoupler, 2,4-dinitrophenol and adrenaline on oxygen radical production in the isolated perfused rat liver.
Okuda M, Lee HC, Kumar C, Chance B.
Department of Biochemistry and Biophysics, University of Pennsylvania 19104-6089.
Using the isolated perfused rat liver, we examined the effect of stimulation of mitochondrial respiration by 2,4-dinitrophenol (2,4-DNP) and adrenaline on reactive oxygen species (ROS) production, liver damage and lipid peroxidation. ROS production was monitored by luminol- and lucigenin-enhanced chemiluminescence and oxygen uptake was measured simultaneously. Liver damage and lipid peroxidation were evaluated by measuring hepatic lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) and thiobarbituric acid reacting substances (TBARS) release. Tissue ROS level decreased and oxygen uptake increased soon after 2,4-DNP infusion. On termination of 2,4-DNP infusion, there was a sharp increase in lucigenin-enhanced chemiluminescence, which declined slowly, but luminol-enhanced chemiluminescence did not change prominently. Hepatic LDH and TBARS release increased gradually during 2,4-DNP infusion and were manifested by termination of the infusion. Allopurinol did not affect ROS production and TBARS release, but delayed increases in LDH release after termination of 2,4-DNP infusion. Adrenaline, which stimulates mitochondrial respiration without uncoupling caused similar but smaller ROS changes observed in 2,4-DNP. LDH and TBARS release were not affected significantly by adrenaline infusion. These results indicate that uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation decreases ROS production and restoration of oxidative phosphorylation enhances ROS production and liver damage. Xanthine oxidase is unlikely to contribute to enhanced ROS production after termination of 2,4-DNP but has some protective effect during uncoupling.

Im not going to recommend usage to others as it can be uncomforable, and it is yellow and stains clothes, (you pant like a hot animal at times and sweat a lot) but I personally will be using it again soon.

 

[nwo2012]

And of course you dont want to overdose but that would be plain stupid!

Mild mitochondrial uncoupling in mice affects energy metabolism, redox balance and longevity.
Caldeira da Silva CC, Cerqueira FM, Barbosa LF, Medeiros MH, Kowaltowski AJ.
SourceDepartamento de Bioquímica, Instituto de Química, Universidade de São Paulo, São Paulo, SP, Brazil.

Abstract
Caloric restriction is the most effective non-genetic intervention to enhance lifespan known to date. A major research interest has been the development of therapeutic strategies capable of promoting the beneficial results of this dietary regimen. In this sense, we propose that compounds that decrease the efficiency of energy conversion, such as mitochondrial uncouplers, can be caloric restriction mimetics. Treatment of mice with low doses of the protonophore 2,4-dinitrophenol promotes enhanced tissue respiratory rates, improved serological glucose, triglyceride and insulin levels, decrease of reactive oxygen species levels and tissue DNA and protein oxidation, as well as reduced body weight. Importantly, 2,4-dinitrophenol-treated animals also presented enhanced longevity. Our results demonstrate that mild mitochondrial uncoupling is a highly effective in vivo antioxidant strategy, and describe the first therapeutic intervention capable of effectively reproducing the physiological, metabolic and lifespan effects of caloric restriction in healthy mammals.

 

[Birdie]

It would be best, if looking to lose weight, to ensure your thyroid is fully functional before going overboard on sugar consumption. Find that amount that is just enough not to go hypoglycaemic or to give a release of adrenalin (in terms of balancing the protein). Extra salt should help too, can probably lower the sugar intake more without release of adrenalin. Also small nibbles of T3 throughout the day (3 hours appart so as not to suppress endogenous supply) should help too.

This sounds reasonable. I need to watch the sugar in just this way. I'm after reducing the adrenalin release. I want to balance my protein mainly with fruit. Keeping fruit available is key. For me, this is a challenge. Easy to buy up and have too much, or just not buy enough. I try to keep oj jello with fruit in it in the fridge. Yesterday, the melons ran out and the peaches were still too hard. So, I headed out to buy melons. When the peaches ripen, I'll need to freeze or cook some. I can see why people use oj but it doesn't work for me except in small doses.

As far as T3 goes, I nibble every hour or so, using 1 cynomel a day. I take Cynoplus sublingually on awakening. I'd taken Armour for 15 years, when it was a good product.

"Find that amount that is just enough not to go hypoglycaemic or give a release of adrenalin (in terms of balancing the protein)." That's a quote for the fridge door!! And I've just made a card. TY.

 

[ARK]

Well, that is tricky... You see to get the thyroid working right: You need sugar and protein. Everyone is different. Sugar will also protect you from PUFA being released from the cells and estrogen being released. Some people may actually need quite a lot of sugar to heal. So to say that you have to watch the sugar well... true. You have to watch to make sure you are getting enough. What is really true is that first you have to get the thyroid working by adding sugar - then once the thyroid is working.. weight loss will just happen. WE add sugar to protect us and to get the fire to burn.

 

[nwo2012]

Well, that is tricky... You see to get the thyroid working right: You need sugar and protein. Everyone is different. Sugar will also protect you from PUFA being released from the cells and estrogen being released. Some people may actually need quite a lot of sugar to heal. So to say that you have to watch the sugar well... true. You have to watch to make sure you are getting enough. What is really true is that first you have to get the thyroid working by adding sugar - then once the thyroid is working.. weight loss will just happen. WE add sugar to protect us and to get the fire to burn.

Yes in terms of weight-loss, one step backwards then two steps forwards.

 

[nwo2012]

It would be best, if looking to lose weight, to ensure your thyroid is fully functional before going overboard on sugar consumption. Find that amount that is just enough not to go hypoglycaemic or to give a release of adrenalin (in terms of balancing the protein). Extra salt should help too, can probably lower the sugar intake more without release of adrenalin. Also small nibbles of T3 throughout the day (3 hours appart so as not to suppress endogenous supply) should help too.

This sounds reasonable. I need to watch the sugar in just this way. I'm after reducing the adrenalin release. I want to balance my protein mainly with fruit. Keeping fruit available is key. For me, this is a challenge. Easy to buy up and have too much, or just not buy enough. I try to keep oj jello with fruit in it in the fridge. Yesterday, the melons ran out and the peaches were still too hard. So, I headed out to buy melons. When the peaches ripen, I'll need to freeze or cook some. I can see why people use oj but it doesn't work for me except in small doses.

As far as T3 goes, I nibble every hour or so, using 1 cynomel a day. I take Cynoplus sublingually on awakening. I'd taken Armour for 15 years, when it was a good product.

"Find that amount that is just enough not to go hypoglycaemic or give a release of adrenalin (in terms of balancing the protein)." That's a quote for the fridge door!! And I've just made a card. TY.

Most welcome. Sounds like a good plan.

 

[narouz]

about Sugar vs. Honey and/or Maple Syrup

Well, that is tricky... You see to get the thyroid working right: You need sugar and protein. Everyone is different. Sugar will also protect you from PUFA being released from the cells and estrogen being released. Some people may actually need quite a lot of sugar to heal. So to say that you have to watch the sugar well... true. You have to watch to make sure you are getting enough. What is really true is that first you have to get the thyroid working by adding sugar - then once the thyroid is working.. weight loss will just happen. WE add sugar to protect us and to get the fire to burn.

ARK, on this Peat and sugar thing...
I have been listening to the Josh&Jeanne interview with Peat called
Glycemia, Starch and SUGAR in context!
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwe...ray-peat-glycemia-starch-and-sugar-in-context

I've always felt it important to stress
that Peat often says
that honey (and some other natural sugars) is preferable to plain sugar.

But on the other hand,
in the interview I named above,
Peat is pretty straight-forward in saying:

"Honey is almost pure sugar with some minerals. So it's a good food.
It isn't all that much greater than plain white sugar, but it's slightly nutritious....
Maple sugar is probably, chemically, more nutritious than honey,
has a very good potassium and a pretty good magnesium content,
but the problem is--as with agave or molasses--when boiled down to dark concentrate
it can be potentially allergenic."

And that interview is from 2011.
So...I'm now tilting more toward you about sugar
and feeling it is less important to pay the extra bucks for honey
(or at least less important to get ALL my sugar from honey).

Seems like, as Peat has said elsewhere,
if the diet in total is nutritious then getting nutrients with the sugar source
is not a big deal.

In the interview Peat also discusses the chemical composition
of sugar (sucrose) vs. fruit.
He says fruit is: approximately 50% fructose and 50% glucose.
He says sucrose is: approximately 50% fructose and 50% glucose.

So...just in terms of the chemical kinds of sugars,
it would seem that sugar is as good as fruit.

Of course there are other nutritional considerations there.
Peat stresses the importance of potassium and magnesium in fruit.

But I think your emphasis on sugar--
yes, plain white sugar,
is on target.

 

[ARK]

It is confusing to listen to the interviews and hear Ray talk about honey. It was confusing for me as well. I do know for sure that he eats white sugar. I have seen an e mail to him about the honey( I will have to find it). In the e mail he says that many people are sensitive to honey and that if you were going to eat honey - he recommends light honey. I do find it interesting that even Ray still has a tough time just saying "sugar" Real Ripe fruit these day can be a challenge to find. Many people when they first come to Ray have some significant digestion issues. The un-ripe fruit can make that situation worse. The sugar, on the other hand, can heal the gut. I know first hand.

 

[narouz]

The Bitter Truth of Fruit

It is confusing to listen to the interviews and hear Ray talk about honey. It was confusing for me as well. I do know for sure that he eats white sugar. I have seen an e mail to him about the honey( I will have to find it). In the e mail he says that many people are sensitive to honey and that if you were going to eat honey - he recommends light honey. I do find it interesting that even Ray still has a tough time just saying "sugar" Real Ripe fruit these day can be a challenge to find. Many people when they first come to Ray have some significant digestion issues. The un-ripe fruit can make that situation worse. The sugar, on the other hand, can heal the gut. I know first hand.

I don't know why Peat would struggle with saying "sugar."
He seems to enjoy playing the role of provocateur by telling people he likes to drink Coke!

But you mention something else I think is important,
about fruit and its ripeness.
Peat has said--I'll have to find it but I read it just recently--that it is crucial to find
really really well-ripened fruit.
Actually, I think his term was "perfectly ripened."
And he noted that even "shelf ripened" fruit won't cut it,
saying that such unripe fruit produces serious, strong toxins.

This is a struggle in my experience.
If I go out to Whole Paycheck, even in the summer,
and look for some ripe peaches, say...
...man, almost None of their peaches are ever really ripe.
Not even close!
Often they are hard as a rock.

I used to let them ripen at home in a paper bag.
Let them do some bag breathing.
Just kidding.
But I'd let them ripen in a bag because that is the old-fashioned way
one is supposed to let unripe fruit ripen.
Now I don't think that is a healthy option.

In the interview Dr. Ray Peat: Glycemia, Starch and SUGAR in context!
Peat says that due to several factors--
fiber, starch, serotonin, allergenicity, toxicity--
many fruits should be avoided:
-banana
-pineapple
-apple
-plum
-kiwi
-mango

He said "that leaves":
-citrus
-grapes
-melons

It would seem to me that
faced with the options of eating those fruits Peat disapproves of
or of eating fruit that is not exquisitely ripe
vs.
eating white sugar...
...I would go with the white sugar.

 

[j.]

narouz, i think he said on that same interview that cooking the fruits makes them better. i'm currently frying bananas on butter at low temp for about 6 minutes. they taste much sweeter and make me feel full quicker.

unfortunately, there is very little info i could find on what are the best methods to improve a fruit by cooking it and how much it improves.

 

[narouz]

narouz, i think he said on that same interview that cooking the fruits makes them better. i'm currently frying bananas on butter at low temp for about 6 minutes. they taste much sweeter and make me feel full quicker.

unfortunately, there is very little info i could find on what are the best methods to improve a fruit by cooking it and how much it improves.

You know, "j," this is actually a very interesting and under-reported-upon topic.

I am sure I've heard Peat say what you report.
It is the details that I've never heard addressed.

How long would one have to cook bananas, say,
in order to make them into something Peat would say was a really good food?
What are the fruits that could be cooked like this?
And would cooking truly solve the problem/s?

Possible problems Peat has mentioned regarding fruits:
1. starch
2. serotonin
3. fiber
4. allergenicity
5. toxicity

I think Peat says that cooking improves the starch problem.
Does it solve it?
What about the fiber issue?
Does cooking do anything to fiber?
Peat sometimes speaks about serotonin problems with fruits.
The way he talks about that, it comes across as if
the serotonin actually exists in the fruit
as opposed to being something produced in the intestines as a result of eating some fruits.
If serotonin in IN fruits...does cooking "improve" that?

So...lots of questions.
nwo2012?! Peat Phone!
(just kidding.)

 

[j.]

I think Charlie mentioned that Peat recommend him to stop eating Plantains, which are usually cooked, so there are probably problems that can't be solved by cooking.

 

[narouz]

I think Charlie mentioned that Peat recommend him to stop eating Plantains, which are usually cooked, so there are probably problems that can't be solved by cooking.

Yes, I remember Charlie's devastation at the prospect of parting with his plantains.
And it's true, j, that in that case
Peat seemed to indicate that cooking would not solve the problem--with plantains.
Now bananas...don't know.
You're in uncharted territory.

 

[ARK]

bananas are not recommended because they are something that is not grown properly and many people are sensitive to them. They are also a starch( whole other topic). You can't ripen a fruit. If the fruit was picked before it was ripe- it will never ripen.Fruits produce a natural pesticide to keep away bugs. When the fruit is ripe- then it stops producing that. So if the fruit is picked before it is ripe is not something that we should eat. Most fruits these days are grown for profit and not allowed to ripen. I think you see my point. If the fruit isn't allowed to ripen on the vine it just will never be truly ripe( in terms of what we are doing) That is why sugar becomes the safer choice. Ray's list of fruits that are safe to eat is getting shorter and shorter. At this point it is safe to go with oranges as long as they taste sweet. The tropical fruits still seem ok.

 

[trialrun]

Hi all, good discussion here. I've been monitoring it over the last couple of months. Here's my short story and current frustrations:

as a 5'10" 220lb male, I was looking for a way to reduce excess weight and maintain strength for the long term. I started low-carb paleo a couple of years ago. I initially lost 10lbs of water weight right away, dropping from 220lbs to 210, then stalled. After a couple months of pretty harsh "low carb flu", I started to feel really good, and was walking quite a bit, and doing sporadic (1-2 times per week weight lifting). At my best I got down to 195lbs. I stayed the course and slowly started regaining weight regardless of exercise or more diet restriction or other "tricks" (carb-cycling, IF, etc...). I got back up to 205lbs, started to lose strength, lost much of my libido, started feeling cold all the time, and started experiencing anxiety.

Realizing that low-carb paleo wasn't working for me, I researched and found sites like Danny Roddy, Cliff and Matt Stone. I appreciated the different viewpoints, though Matt Stone seems a bit too "Contrarian" with no science basis for his "ideas". So I pursued understanding and adopting a Ray Peat transition. Lowered fat intake, increased carb intake through milk and oj and fruits. Added Gelatin and daily aspirin, more salt, cut vegetables, etc . I instantly gained 10lbs, which I accepted as carb water-weight. I did start feeling better, and regained libido. Skin and hair started looking better, though anxiety remains fairly high.

I've been on Ray Peat type diet for 6 months now (and realize it is a diet for health, not weight loss, however, everyone keeps talking about ramping up metabolism and then losing weight). I've monitored calories in crono meter and range from 2200-3000 which doesn't seem to far off the mark for my RMR+TEF+Activity. However I've continued to gain weight eating this way and am up to 228lbs. I have regained strength (as my lifts have gotten better), but also a lot of fat. I've been monitoring my pulse and basal temps, but they haven't budged over this period: average 96.5 temp, and average 75 resting heart rate.

It's time to buy larger sized pants, and while I'm glad I am feeling "healthier", I'm unhappy about my continued weight gain and apprehensive about continuing forward seeing no progress in "metabolic measurements". I'm reluctant to take any thyroid replacement medicine as my concern is that once you start replacing thyroid, your body stops producing on its own.

Raising your metabolic rate by eating more sugar and reducing stress on the body sounds great, but after 6 months not seeing measurable metabolic changes, I'm hesitant to continue much longer. Appreciate the website and continued discussions. It's all very interesting (and sometimes frustratingly challenging)

 

[cliff]

TrialRun You probably should be taking low dose cynoplus to get your temps and pulse better. Your concern about thyroid supplementation isn't reality.

"Experimenters using isotopes gave large doses of thyroid until the subjects' glands were completely shut off, and when they stopped giving the doses, everyone's gland returned to normal activity in just 2 or 3 days. The gland is extremely quick to adjust its activity, both up and down, except when it's inhibited by stress, or PUFA, or estrogen, etc."-RP

 

[charlie]

Very good post, Cliff.

My thoughts about it. You say you dont want to take thyroid because your thyroid wont make hormones anymore. I would argue, your thyroid already isnt making the hormones it should due to PUFA overload, and thats easily seen by your temps.

Until, you can get the bad fats out and replaced with good ones, I think that adding in the hormones to help ones body overcome the burden of the PUFA's is needed.

 

[ARK]

Broda Barnes says that as long as your temps don't go above the 98.2 (waking) and 98.6, that we are safe to use the t3 and t4. He says that you would have to go above these numbers for quite some time to cause the body to become reliant on the thyroid meds.

 

[j.]

trialrun, what are your sources and overall consumption of fat? also, something you might want to try:

"When a person wants to lose excess fat, limiting the diet to low fat milk, eggs, orange juice, and a daily carrot or two, will provide the essential nutrients without excess calories."
- Ray Peat

source: I think it's the first page of this thread.

 

[trialrun]

Thanks for the responses, and that's a good point: If I should have seen metabolic measurement increases by eating this way, and I haven't, then maybe it does indicate that my thyroid is not responding.

I'm willing to test my response to thyroid, but how are folks doing it? i.e. ramp up for a couple months, and then once metabolic measurements are improved, discontinue use? I did fine some Peat suggestions from DR's site here: http://www.dannyroddy.com/2011/12/2...ding-a-foundation-for-better-understandi.html

Where are folks getting their Cynoplus? Are they actually going through their PCP's and getting tests and scripts, or just ordering online from somewhere?