Peat Eating And Weight Gain

Discussion in 'Diet, Recipes' started by narouz, Jul 22, 2012.

  1. narouz

    narouz Member

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    What I’d like to do here is categorize the different ways people have tried to deal with weight gain while eating in a Peat way. I hope people will post their experiences and ideas.

    I’ve been following Peat eating principles for about 5 months now and, while I’ve experienced some promising changes, I have gained weight—about 15 to 20 lbs. This does seem to be a repeated theme on Peat-related forums. I don’t gauge the success of a diet strictly or even primarily upon weight control; however, I must admit it is hard for me to escape bad feelings about my fatness, and this creates a frustrating dissonance within me and within my embrace of Peat’s ideas. At the same time I find Peat’s ideas very persuasive and can swallow the fact that it might take quite a while to really see how a Peat “diet” affects weight and body shape.

    I’ve bounced this Peat diet/weight gain issue around on a few different forums, I’ve received some interesting responses, and I’ve read a lot of different ways others have tried to grapple with the problem.

    (I guess it would be helpful if I gave a little info about myself. I’m 59. I’m male. I come to Peat-eating after eating for about 10 years within different variations of the low carb approach. I started with Protein Power; added a lot of Mercola-type stuff like chlorella, raw foods, raw milk, intense interval exercise, fructose and sugar fear. It worked great at first: I was able to stay pretty slim and muscular, my triglycerides and cholesterol levels improved pretty dramatically. Looking back, I do think, though, that I started to experience higher anxiety, loss of libido--rarely even loss of sexual function, and I guess what would generally be called fatigue—I just felt the need to shelter and rest and recover and kinduv insulate/isolate myself from stressful stuff—like life (ha). I was diagnosed as hypothyroid. I started on Synthroid, then started questioning the conventional wisdom about thyroid issues. I switched to porcine thyroid and saw a little improvement. I tried a million supplements for thyroid and adrenals and sexuality—none with any clear, sustained positive results. I think my doctor and I have achieved a pretty good thyroid dosage.)

    So here is how I would try to categorize the different ways people explain weight-gain while Peat Eating and (therefore) how they would fix it:

    1. Lower Fat Consumption: this is probably the consensus among posters I view as having some credibility (I know this is a subjective judgement). Danny Roddy, for instance, advises cutting fat intake, but keeping your foot on the gas (so to speak) by continuing to eat Peat-outlined levels of carbs from fruits and sugar (and of protein)--the overarching strategy being to crank up the metabolism, which will be the most powerful factor in weight control. Roddy also advises getting lab tests and making sure crucial Peaty nutrients like thyroid, Vitamin A, magnesium, salt, calcium, aspirin, etc are at healthy levels. An important feature of Roddy’s approach is that I don’t think he advocates caloric restriction or portion control. In other words, he seems to think it’s okay to let satiety control eating. Hope I’m interpreting Danny accurately here. That is just a quick take on Roddy’s vastly fuller interpretation of Peat’s nutritional ideas as they bear on weight and metabolism.


    2. Lower Fat Consumption And Exercise Some: Another smart guy is Cliff McClary. McClary says that most people come to Peat Eating from some form of “low-carbism” (like myself); therefore, they are accustomed to eating A LOT of fat. These people Think they are eating according to Peat ideas, but really they are not—because they just haven’t come to terms with the fact that, in Peat Eating, one really can’t eat anywhere near the levels of fat—even good fats—to which they were accustomed when eating “low carb” (well, not if one has weight issues). He advises lowering fats and using all the standard Peat metabolic fuels and nutrients like Roddy (above). He also says that doing strength training a couple of times a week would be a good idea. And he thinks eating a lot of small meals would help too. One interesting tidbit with McClary is that he doesn’t seem to think that coconut oil should be given a free pass even though one could come away from reading Peat thinking that it is a weight-loss food that falls into a different category from other saturated fats. I’m sorry if I misrepresent McClary’s ideas here—of course I under-represent them. As with Roddy, McClary doesn’t seem to argue for any kind of portion or caloric restriction—let satiety govern intake. Hope I don’t mistake Cliff there.

    3. Calories In Calories Out, So Reduce Fats and Carbs: this is another prevalent stream of thought regarding those struggling with weight while Peat Eating. Those in this camp think that satiety is not a good limiting factor, and that one simply has to push oneself away from the OJ or fruit or sugar or potatoes, and exert portion control or caloric restriction—at least until the metabolism increases and more calories are burned. Actually, this isn’t something one hears much of on Peat-related forums. It is mostly a critique of Peat Eating one hears on Paleo or Primal or Low Carb forums. It is predictable criticism. I hope it’s not true: I hate restricting calories and feeling cravings.

    4. It’s a Problem Caused by Shifting to a Largely Liquid Diet: This is an interesting strand. I think I came across this idea on the “Mark’s Daily Apple” site, in the thread where Danny Roddy was debating with several Primal Blueprinters. I’ll try to track down the poster. He said that, in his view, a lot of people struggle with weight gain when doing a Peat diet because they don’t Really come to terms with the fact that most of their diet is now Liquid (OJ and milk). And so people Drink all of those calories, but don’t really recognize that That’s It—that’s your “food” for the day. In other words, people don’t really realize that OJ and milk are FOOD, even though one DRINKS them. So they also then Eat additional (solid) food—potatoes, rice, etc. Thus they over-eat and gain weight. This view holds some water for me, because I myself have often felt—after a day of guzzling OJ and skim milk—that I still crave EATING something: I mean Chewing something Solid, etc. Not more fruit, either.

    5. Stop Drinking All That Milk: One poster with the distinctive handle “Senneth” has posted that her Peat weight gain struggle was solved by stopping the milk drinking. She said, as I recall, that she continued to eat other solid dairy products, but that when she stopped drinking all that milk “the pounds melted away” (or words to that effect). I wish this would prove true for me. I haven’t tried it.

    6. Cheating--Maybe Some Gain Weight While Putatively Eating Peatishly Simply Because They Cheat: I came across a lot of self-described Peatatarians who said, flat-out, that they were weary from all the different restrictive diets they had tried in the past, and simply did not consider themselves beholden to any “Rules”—Peat-derived or otherwise. To me, the Peat “diet” in its strict form—as best one can extrapolate it from Peat’s articles and interviews—is a quite challenging diet. Frankly, I can’t imagine very many people really doing it without “cheating.” A lot of people say they’re “trying Peat” or “adding some Peat,” but at the same time say proudly that they are not going to torture or restrict or deny themselves. One poster whom I really enjoy, with the handle “Thomas Seay” (I think) says that he believes that it is very important to Cheat A Lot on a Peat diet (or on any diet, if I understand him right) because nobody (even Peat) has a corner on the truth, and so your best bet is not to place all your eggs in one basket, so to speak. Again, this Thomas Seay is one of my favorite posters and a voice of reason on several forums, so I’m not being snide or sarcastic, and I understand where he’s coming from. But I suppose I do have to say that his approach differs from mine, because I wouldn't feel I’ve Really Tried a certain diet if I don’t do it pretty strictly. So, I’ve discussed those who Clearly State that they Intend to cheat (maybe that means they are not cheating?). In addition, I would have to think that many more cheat inadvertently. Maybe they are not well educated on Peat’s ideas. Maybe they Are well educated but they sortuv “sneak” a lot of non-Peat stuff into their diet without admitting it to themselves (or at any rate to others when they post).

    The way I understand Peat’s ideas about metabolism (and therefore about weight), I can’t accurately judge whether they are working or not unless given time. I have stuffed myself for years with PUFAs, and therefore my metabolism is damaged or at least very sluggish, so it may take a long time to excrete those PUFAs and start to see improvements in metabolism (which of course will impact weight). One very general principle here, for me, in this discussion of weight-loss, is that Peat Eating may indeed result in healthy weight and pleasing body shape, but for some it simply may take Time. Darn it.
     
  2. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Narouz, that’s a well thought out post and many great questions. Thank you.

    When I started peat I came from very low carb, what a disaster low carb was for me, but, I did lose a lot of weight on it (100 pounds). So when I started peat, I immediately gained 15 pounds in 2 weeks. Yikes!! Btw, this is strict Peat, I do not cheat at all. So over the next couple months, I gained another 10 pounds and then went, oh crap! I don’t want to be over weight again!! So I started looking for answers. Calories in calories out, low fat restrict this, restrict that. Lordy! finally, I came to the conclusion I was going to track my calories, cut down on fat by skimming my raw milk of the cream and also watching my butter intake, cut way back on the milk, I only drink a little over a cup a day now but I eventually am going to start bringing the milk back up, and also cutting way back on ice cream. I could never control the ice cream anyways, so it was best to get rid of it and only have it as a special treat. So I tracked my calories and was shooting for 2300 calories a day. The weight gain stopped thank God! I also stopped eating any starches. So basically it’s all fruit now and I feel better this way. I do eat some plantains which might be a little starchy I guess, but no potatoes or rice or anything like that. I found I do better on the all fruit plan right now for carbs. So then, I stopped counting calories. And I ate as much fruit as I wanted till I was satisfied. I still eyeball the protein for portion control, but on fruits, I chow down what I want. I also have introduced a tablespoon of coconut oil with my coffee for bfast and lunch. So that’s another 200 and some calories and still no weight gain. I might actually be losing fat slowly now and putting on muscle because my muscles are feeling bigger. But one thing I make sure is that I never walk away from the table lacking, I make sure I am full. Fruit fruit fruit, love it!

    So I think, lower the fat. Watch your calories a bit but don’t obsess, get those sugars in from good fruit, and cut back on the milk and OJ some.

    I am still making progress to on the healing doing all this btw. And I am sitting here with a 99.3 temp right now after eating a pound of shrimp, I know that’s a lot but I was hungry. lol 3.5 cups of OJ, and a couple bowls of watermelon.

    On a side note. I haven’t gone up one pants size gaining all this weight. Weird. They fit a tad bit snugger, but that’s it. No waste gain. Incredible.
     
  3. cliff

    cliff Member

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    it's mccrary :p

    A 15-20lb increase is pretty normal coming from something like low carb, the majority of it is probably just water weight and glycogen.

    Losing weight basically comes down to calories in, calories out. Utilizing things that can increase metabolism(like salt, sugar, calcium etc.) can help to lose weight by increasing energy demands. Gaining muscle through exercise can help to increase metabolism as well.

    My blog post on weight loss on my website gives a pretty good outline of what to do if you want to lose weight. Basically you want to use temps/pulse to see how much you can safely restrict without declines in metabolism.
     
  4. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Yes I failed to mention that I was pretty positive the first 15-20 pounds was water/glycogen. But I am sure I gained a few pounds of fat after that. :shh: :mrgreen:
     
  5. irvinwooten

    irvinwooten New Member

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    That was really nice and important information that you have provided us..That would certainly make a difference in our routine...
     
  6. ARK

    ARK Member

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    Hi - This is certainly interesting. Seems to me that following RP recommendations, men seem to loose weight faster than women. Most women tend to gain weight at first while they heal. I imagine that is do to the estrogen(some men if they are overweight may also have this issue). In terms of fat intake: coconut oil should speed the metabolic rate. When I work with people that need to loose weight I always recommend coconut oil. So far every person that I have made this suggestion to has lost weight- and keeps loosing weight. The other safe fats ( butter and cream...etc) You have to be careful with. If your metabolic rate is slow seems that people tend to gain weight with these fats. I have been doing Peat for about 5/6 months now. I was low carb- 0 carb for a long time. I have not gained weight at all and I eat about a cup of sugar a day. When I see people gaining weight on Peat I think:
    1- They are eating too much muscle meat without balancing out with gelatin.
    2- They are eating too much sat fat ( stuck in WAPF) and not getting in the coconut oil
    3- Not eating enough sugar, salt, and fruit
    4 -Cortisol levels are still high
    5- Thyroid isn't working yet
    6- Not eating enough dairy
    7- not getting enough bone broth

    I have done what Ray recommends: mostly dairy and fruit and I see that the combination works. However, I think many people gain weight at first doing Peat and thats ok. The sugar helps to store the PUFA which is a good thing. Over time the body will heal and people tend to loose that early weight gain. For women it can be frustrating.... this is about healing- so stick with it!!!!
     
  7. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    This is some great data.
    Thanks ARK!
     
  8. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    about Cheating and Gaining Weight

    As I was saying above...

    Here's a way I might be said to have inadvertantly cheated.
    I found, when totaled up,
    as part of my daily drip coffees
    with half-and-half
    (sort of like Dr. Ray who says he drinks a lot of caffee con leche)
    ...I found that I was drinking a half-gallon of half & half per week.

    Really, I don't think I was cheating, even inadvertantly.
    I was "eating like Peat."
    (but I don't have Peat's metabolism.)
     
  9. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Michelle over at Ray Peat Fans had this conversation with Dr. Peat about weight gain.

    [hr][/hr]

    "Dear Ray,
    I would really love to get your opinion on this. I have been eating so well on your approach. My skin is amazing(therefore insides also healing), brown spots peeling off, etc. I feel much better. I have experimented with many different ratios and foods and supplements that you mention. Eating zero PUFAs for 4 months now. Milk, OJ, Gelatin, salt, sugar, Coco oil, beef, shrimp.

    My question is weight/inches gain. It is a mystery to me and a few friends of mine who have also changed their eating to your approach. It is a mystery we cannot resolve. Across the board, the only commonality is your approach, meaning some of us are taking the supplements: aspirin and E to offset PUFA release. Some of us are not. Some of us are still eating starches, some of us are not. Our ages vary from 25-55. Some eat more, some eat less. Alot of us have weight gain, varying 2-8 months into it now.

    The best I can deduce from your literature is that we are gaining weight due to the heavy release of PUFAS, blocking the sugar from getting into the cells, so they then get stored in the "wrong" places as fat? I am taking the high dose aspirin, E, and also niacinamide to help with the pufa release.

    I was wondering if you could offer your opinion on what is happening and when and how will the weight/inches go back down?? For me, I cannot fit into my clothes. It is uncomfortable. I have tried all different eating - ratios, more, less. It has not changed my weight. Is there a timeline that it takes for the weight/inches to go back down? Or anything I can do? This is an issue that has perplexed us. Because we each vary in our style, amounts, foods etc within your approach and yet, we have commonly have the weight gain.

    Ray's response:

    Which supplements do you mean?
    My recommendation is to eat to increase the metabolic rate (usually temperature and heart rate), rather than any particular foods. Usually the increased metabolic rate, with adequate protein, causes some muscle increase, and when that happens the basic calorie requirement will increase. The increase of muscle mass should continue for several weeks, and during that time the weight might increase a little, but usually the loss of water and fat will compensate for the greater muscle mass. I have heard from several people that they think I recommend drinking whole milk, which I don't, because the amount of fat in whole milk is very likely to be fattening when a person is using it to get the needed protein and calcium. When a person wants to lose excess fat, limiting the diet to low fat milk, eggs, orange juice, and a daily carrot or two, will provide the essential nutrients without excess calories."
     
  10. j.

    j. Guest

    I think this can go into Peat Quotes:

    guy's a genius.
     
  11. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Yes he is!

    And you are more then welcome to post it in quotes if you like. :thumbup:
     
  12. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    Lordy, Michelle...I feel your pain.
    And this is such a typical question/struggle for "Peatatarians."
    I think, sometimes, that there may be a kind of tacit self-censorship afoot,
    on the various Peat sites.
    Nobody wants to face this head-on (or otherwise).

    I would simply submit--
    and Michelle's post is redolent with the sense of this--
    that
    Nobody Knows What Anyone is Talking About When They Say They're Eating "Like Peat" (or whatever)...

    ...because it could mean so many vastly different things!

    If we could simply reach some agreement about what a Peat Diet (yes, I said the word!) is...
    ...that would be an extremely useful starting point.
     
  13. j.

    j. Guest

    narouz, out of curiosity, what are your sources of fat?
     
  14. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    well, let's see:

    -like I said, 2 weeks ago I stopped having coffee with half&half,
    and I use completely skim milk.
    So not much there.

    -dropped my CO consumption to about 2TBSP per day

    -cheese...to get the good ones they can't always lowfat. I eat some cheese
    but not a tremendous amount.

    -meat: lean cuts

    -like every other day I will have a bowl of potatoes. then every week I'll have a serving of rice. with butter and coconut oil

    I guess that's pretty much it.
    That's been my fat losing strategy for a few months now:
    reduce fats.

    Interesting test. :lol:
     
  15. j.

    j. Guest

    i see. so basically the only significant source is coconut oil. and you've been doing that for 2 weeks without weight loss? dang. i lost weight fairly quickly when i dropped the whole milk and started using coconut oil as my main source of fats
     
  16. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    narouz how is your body temp and pulse running?
     
  17. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    I know, right? :roll:
     
  18. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    Pulse jumped up there a month or two ago
    and still are solid:
    mid-98's by morning,
    sustained all day.
    Temperature has been a big jump.

    Pulse rate,
    not so much.
    Last time I think was 60bpm.
    I have always had low pulse rate.
     
  19. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Are you taking thyroid supplement? Ray indicates having a pulse in the 80's is what we should shoot for. From you telling me your pulse is in the 60's just confirms my suspicion that your metabolism is most likely low.
     
  20. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    Got a semi-cool alternative-ish doctor on the thyroid for a year now.
    Not perfect, but at least a little open-minded.
    I'm on Armour.
    150mg.

    TSH and other indicators seem right.
    Actually feeling a bit hyper here lately.

    My pulse might've be 70ish,
    but no higher.

    I'm fine!
    But the metabolic transformation hasn't occurred.

    That's OK.
    I've been force-feeding myself PUFAs
    under the influence of various dietary regimes
    for years and years.
    I LOVE chicken, for instance,
    and moreover chicken skin.
    And olive oil.
    And nuts.

    Don't even talk to me about PUFAs!
    I got them up
    and out
    the wazoo!!!!!

    I may be on the 4 year plan.
    (The Peat 4 year 'til you get the PUFA's cleared Plan).
    :shock:
     
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