Notes Toward An "Optimal Peat Diet"

Discussion in 'Diet, Recipes' started by narouz, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. narouz

    narouz Member

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    Proposed:

    We could make our Peat writings less clotted and tortuous, and our meanings clearer, if we agreed to a concept or designation called (something like) an Optimal Peat Diet


    -Yes, I know Dr. Peat does not call his dietary suggestions a "diet."
    -But he does make some fairly clear general statements or guidelines.
    -Spelling out a Peat-Derived Diet (or somesuch)...we could hammer that out over time here.
    -It shouldn't be considered "written in stone."
    -Of course there will be exceptions...the person with some unnamed condition who absolutely cannot eat any kind of fruit, or milk, etc. The designation is intended simply as a generalization.

    Let me start us off. Peat has said something like, "I think everybody should have 1 quart of OJ and 2 quarts of milk per day." That is off the top of my head, and I stand ready to be corrected. What if we used that statement as a base, noting of course that those amounts can/should be increased as the metabolism allows. I tend to think Peat would worry about "anyone" getting less than that.

    So what if we designated, as a per day starting point:

    -2 quarts of milks, or the equivalent thereof in cheese or other acceptable proteins; variable upwards as metabolism allows

    -1 quart of OJ, or the equivalent in other acceptable fruits or acceptable sugars or carbohydrates.

    -saturated fats: some amount (please help me here) of saturated fat-- from ruminant meat, butter, coconut oil or olive oil (though here Peat does say to restrict olive oil to less than about a TEAspoon per day)

    -potatoes: Peat has said, I believe, "you could have one per day." He mentioned a russet variety as good and perhaps this is approximately the size/amount he had in mind.

    -"roots, tubers, and shoots" ; I think this is the phrase he used, saying those kinds of foods wouldn't kill ya, but he didn't really seem to be saying that they were positives, nutritionally. So I would tend to restrict those, perhaps fairly strictly, on a "Basic Peat Diet."

    -seafood: occasionally, but almost more like a supplement--not really for their protein. Peat has said shellfish once or twice a week as I recall, and certain kinds of warm-water fish like sole he has also said are okay--but again, only occasionally.

    -masa harina and white rice: once in a while. Peat has said one could have white rice "about once a week." I don't recall exact statements on masa harina.

    -vegetables: generally, Peat says they're not good for you. Definitely not a fan of "foliage" (ha) as he calls it, or broccoli or cauliflower (or crucifers in general); he has said sometimes he drinks some broth of kale for nutrients.

    -chicken: nope. Pretty much crawlin' with PUFAs. This bears further exploration, as Peat has said chickens will reflect their diet. What if there diet was completely free range with no bad feed?

    -chicken skin: plan your funeral

    -cheeses: yes, with some finer points to be wrestled with

    -grains: nope (except white rice)
    -fruits: yes, the ones with avoidable seeds; ripe
    -sugar: yes, although fruits and honey are better on a consistent basis
    -water: yes, pure

    That's a start.
    If this sounds like a good project to you, I'd like suggestions how to make it better.
    I think that, in addition straining out cloying and clotting phraseology like "Peat Eating," a designation like this could also make our communications clearer. There are so many people writing, variously, that they are "eating a Peat diet" or "eating according to Peat guidelines" or "adding some Peat principles"...it really does make it hard to know what the heck we're talking about. I certainly do not have any intention of using such a label in some authoritarian way, like "Oh, I'm so superior to you because I'm eating a BPD and you're NOT!" And I don't think we would be unleashing some language Frankenstein which would turn Peatdom into the Third Reich.

    [hr][/hr]
    Admin edit to add:

    Proposed food chart and food list recommendations, rough draft. Please help critique.



    -2 quarts of milks, or the equivalent thereof in cheeses, variable upwards as metabolism allows. Dr. Peat has said, when asked general questions about diet, that “everyone should probably have about 2 quarts of milk and 1 quart of orange juice.” It would seem that Peat has a rough ideal proportion or ratio in mind for protein to sugars, and his shorthand of 2:1 milk-to-OJ that as a sort of general baseline for most people. When people trying a Peat diet complained to him that they were gaining undesired weight, he said something like: “I never said to drink whole milk. If there are concerns about weight gain people should drink low fat milk or eat the lowfat cheeses” (as I say, just an approximate quote there; I’ll try to find Peat’s exact words later). And Peat would seem to be fine with replacing some or even all of the milk with cheese. Some have taken Peat’s comments about his own diet—that he himself has drunk a lot more milk and OJ than the 2 and 1 quart/s—as an ideal, general recommendation for most people. But I don’t believe Peat intended that implication. He was, rather, I think, trying to illustrate how, as one’s metabolism increases, so too will the basic food requirements.

    -1 quart of OJ, or the equivalent in other acceptable fruits. Again, as above with milk, this would seem to be a general, baseline recommended amount and ratio (of fruit to milk). And the same notes about Peat’s statements regarding his own diet and his much higher intake of fruit (or OJ) also apply here. Peat recommends tropical, fresh, ripe fruit which can be eaten avoiding the seeds. He favors oranges because he says they are extremely nutritious in comparison to other fruits. Some have argued that the carbohydrates in what are sometimes (I don’t know where the language comes from or how much if any validity it has) referred to as Peat’s “safe starches” or “safer starches” (like masa harina, potato, and white rice) can be considered “Peat recommended” substitutes (or at least partial substitutes) for fruit carbs. This is one of the blurriest areas of the Peat food picture, and one which will require additional space to fully discuss. Some would even argue that Peat would have us include “roots, tubers, and shoots” (his phrase) as “Peat recommended” substitutes (or, again, at least partial substitutes) for fruits. It is not as if Peat says nothing to guide us in this ambiguous area. The problem is that he makes statements both for and against the so-called “safe starches,” probably varying sometimes because of context. But I do think we can illuminate this murky area and bring more clarity. That effort will probably take place under the category of “safe starches.”
     

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  2. cliff

    cliff Member

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    Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

    Peat never specifies how many potatoes you can eat or how many times a week you can eat rice. I assume he thinks they are fine in pretty much any quantity if tolerated, you just want to get the majority of your carbohydrates from fructose, sucrose or lactose. He says roots and tubers are second best to fruits.

    He also says oats are fine if well cooked.
     
  3. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

    Thanks, Cliff. I think you are correct. I have so many bits of Peat data floating around in my brain--from his articles, from interviews, from people who have reported upon their consultations with Peat himself--that I can't find a really solid reference for what I noted about what Peat has recommended about how much potato and white rice one should eat.

    I believe this is may be the source I had in mind for my information about potatoes, rice, and amounts.
    It comes from a poster named "Van Gogh" on a Low Carb website in a long, interesting thread on Peat:

    http://67.18.87.132/showthread.php?p=8512353

    Here is the quote:

    "Correction.. The order of best to worst on those allowable starches is potatoes, masa corn, white rice.. I remember he said that you can have a potato a day, rice once a week."--Van Gogh

    I believe that poster is reporting from a consultation with Peat, but I am not sure.
    She seems a balanced and credible poster, IMO.
    I'll continue to explore this, but as of now I believe Cliff is on more solid ground.

    I would say though that I kinduv suspect that those amounts I noted above may prove to be on target,
    because--taken in context with his other general, well-sourced ideas--I really don't think Peat would encourage the consumption of unlimited amounts of white rice (or even potatoes).
    Consider, for instance, some other things Peat is reported to have said about those foods:

    from http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-to ... ting!/100/

    Quote
    "Did you ever listen to East West Healing podcasts? He's not against potatoes and rice, but says they can feed bacteria and that they have to be cooked for at least 40 minutes." - Bruno (a Ray Peat fan), http://paleohacks.com/questions/110600/ ... z1rbjazOZd

    Quote
    "While Peat is fond of the potato for it's high quality protein, and doesn't seem to mind corn-tortillas or rice cooked in lye on occasion, he considers sugar, in the form of fruit, to be far superior." - Danny Roddy, self-described "Peatatarian" http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2012/1/1 ... -diet.html

    Again, I concede that those quotes, from people reporting Peat's ideas, are not decisive. But they do have "the ring of truth" in that they seem to me to be consistent with Peat's overall nutritional ideas.

    Put it this way: I would be very surprised to hear Dr. Peat suggest most people eat white rice on a regular, daily basis. And even with potatoes, it would surprise me if he suggested most people eat several potatoes every day--as a general recommendation

    I'm focusing in on potatoes and rice because, depending on how one interprets Peat's view on them, their rather unlimited consumption radically changes the essential nature of a Peat way of eating.
    I actually WISH Dr. Peat would come out and say, "I think it would be a good thing for most everybody to consume as much potato and white rice as they like."
    (Because I love white rice and potato--with lots of butter!)

    Alas...I don't think he would say that.
     
  4. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

    Recently I was having a back and forth with Ray Peat and I asked him whats the best foods I can eat to get me out of the inflammation stage I am in and this is what he said:

    "Generally, the simplest thing is to avoid things with starch and polyunsaturated fats. Milk and orange juice are the safest basic things, raw carrot helps to reduce intestinal inflammation and absorption of endotoxin, liver, eggs, and oysters are foods with a high ratio of nutrients to toxins." Ray Peat

    So, if you are in the healing process. I would say starch is out of the question. Stick with well ripe Ray Peat approved fruits. And definitely stay away from plantains. Ray said they have high amount of serotonin in them. So I will be cutting them out of my diet.
     
  5. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

    Thanks Charlie.
    It's great when people who have actually spoken To The Man give us poor wanderers and wonderers reports! :D

    This adds confirmation to my suspicion (above) that, if we are trying to derive or extrapolate something like a "Basic Peat Diet" or a "Strict Peat Diet" or somesuch, it probably shouldn't, in my opinion, include unlimited amounts of even the starches Peat says are "better": potato, white rice, masa harina. Nor should it include unlimited amounts of the underground vegetables like sweet potato or parsnips or whatever, even though Peat says those vegetables are better than above-ground veggies in terms of toxins.

    In fact, in trying to hammer out a "BPD" (or whatever name), I think it would be best--most true to Peat, most accurate to the overall spirit of his views--to figure out some clear limits to starch consumption.
    We would seem to have some pretty strong hints and even clear statements from Peatatarians who've heard from Peat indirectly and directly.
    Charlie reports that Peat advises that the "simplest" thing is to avoid starches.
    If our aim is to come up with something like a "BPD," I would think that what Peat calls the "simplest" principle should be of strong interest to us.
    The poster I noted above said he had heard that Peat suggested one could have about one potato per day and white rice about once per week.

    To me, it seems that, when trying to figure out how to see the place of starches in a "BPD" (I'm not at all married to that name!), we should try to arrive at some kind of clear limits, or even let starches fall outside of a "BPD."

    Again, let me stress that my goal is not to play the role of some Nazi Peat Food Restrictor.
    Those who follow Peat and who believe they are fine eating however much starch they want according to how they interpret Peat and their context...fine!
    And they could still fairly say that they are "Peatatarians" or doing "Peat Eating" or "Eating According to Peat Principles" or whatever. With no ostracism.

    If you look at just about any other theory of nutrition, most try to give some kind of clear template. "The Perfect Health Diet" or "Protein Power," for instance, give you a pretty clear idea of what should and should not be eaten, and give also guidance about amounts.
    I don't think it is unreasonable for us to try to arrive at some starting point like that.
     
  6. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

    This "context is everything" thang...

    stevensmith said (in the Diet forum):

    and

    This Context view:
    It is an important principle.
    Some thoughts:

    On the negative side (in my view), a too-luxurious application can lead to an "everything is relative" vacuum, at least if our goal is to arrive at some "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD) or "Strict Peat Diet" or "Simple Peat Diet" or "General Peat Diet."

    That said, can we agree that context is important, but still try to articulate a working definition of something like a "BPD"?
    I don't see why not.
    In fact, I think it would be very helpful and clarifying.

    While noting that "context in everything" (above) Stevensmith also returns to his point and qualifies it by acknowledging that starches should, for most, be limited.

    So I would simply point out
    that, in my view,
    Context is Not Everything--
    at least not if we're trying to work toward a definition of a "BPD."
    I would state it more like this:
    Context is Important.

    More food for thought:
    Cliff has said (above) that:

    Cliff (and his site) represent a wealth of sane Peat-related info.
    In terms of context and Cliff and Cliff's statements above about Peat and starches, I would note that Cliff looks (in his video) like a young, vibrant, extremely active Surfer Dude woopersnapper out there everyday very actively trying to avoid Great Whites.
    Within that context, I'm willing to believe that Cliff can eat a whole hell of a lot of Peat's "better" starches.
    But...is that a good or safe or ideal starting point for most trying or wanting to try a Peat type of diet?
    (And...not to pry, Cliff, but didn't Danny, over on his site, mention that your background involves more of an effort to gain weight?)

    Keeping the spotlight (ha) on Cliff for a moment, I believe he has said that it is his guess that Most People, coming to Peat and trying a Peat-style diet, are coming to it From some Low Carb type of diet--Paleo, Primal, Protein Power, etc.

    Now: if Context is Important,
    and if we are interested (maybe I'm the only one :oops:) working toward defining a "BPD,"
    and if Most People come to Peat via Low Carb Land...

    ...well, if all those assumptions are true,
    then it would seem to me there may be an argument for restricting starches
    within an imagined "BPD."
    Yes?

    (I think there are other arguments for restricting starches in a "BPD," too.)
     
  7. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    PUFA as a Guiding Light

    I quoted this exchange between Stevensmith and Ericrlepine from over on the "Is a Ray Peat diet difficult" thread:

    (emphasis mine--the bolding)

    I think this may go beyond semantics.
    Couple of thoughts:

    1) The argument to restrict or not restrict starches...the context I have in mind with this thread is that of trying to agree upon something like a "BPD," not just vaguely shooting-the-***t about Peat Stuff.

    2) I would think that while PUFAs are very important in Peatdom as something to avoid or restrict, they are not the only or even the most important lens through which to consider the problem. At the highest level of his nutritional thinking, Peat seems to me most concerned with efficient respiration and with energy. With that in mind, I think Peat would see restriction-worthy foods more broadly (than strictly in terms of PUFA content).
    For instance: I think he would restrict the amount of muscle meats eaten (even of ruminant animals) because of their stress inducing, imbalanced amino acid profile.
    Another for instance: I think he would restrict vegetables because of their toxicity and their fiber.
    Another: I think he would restrict starches, not because of PUFAs primarily, but because he has said that they lead to obesity and because they are not the most efficient proteins and carbs for energy and respiration.

    So, if we're interested in working toward defining something like a "BPD,"
    I don't think PUFA content should be our only guide.
    I think it represents Peat's ideas too narrowly.
     
  8. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    "Generally," "Simplest," "Safest"

    Returning to your fascinating report of your exchange with Peat, Charlie:

    I mentioned in a post above, about context, that from Cliff's context (as a surfin', weight-wanting, healthy, active young guy) I can see how high starch consumption could work out.
    Okay, that's one context.

    What about another context, Charlie's?
    Charlie apparently posed his questions to Peat in terms of his being in a state of inflammation.
    So maybe we should see Peat's answers within that context.

    Different contexts, different ways of interpreting Peat.
    Well, I'm thinking that Peat answered Charlie in terms of Charlie's context--inflammation.
    But then again, Peat seemed to pointedly employ the terms "generally," "simplest," and "safest" in his suggestions.

    It may be an unwarranted inference on my part,
    but in using that language ("generally," "simplest," and "safest")
    could we think that Peat was indicating ideas
    which could legitimately give
    some outlines toward a Basic Peat Diet (BPD)?

    After all, if we are trying to derive or extrapolate such a thing from Peat's ideas,
    would we not be very interested in his expressions about what would be
    "generally,"
    for most people,
    "simple"
    and
    "safe"...?

    (To me, the descriptor "efficient" also seems consonant with what Peat was saying.)
     
  9. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

    I am unpinning the thread I had posted with Peat Eating guidelines and will be pinning this one instead.

    I would like to thank narouz for bringing this up along with his well thought out posts on the subject. :clap: I am in agreement we should try to nail down some kind of basic Peat diet plan(or whatever we decide to call it). Throw all the "in context" talk out, and let's nail down a basic type diet that we can point people to when they come and ask "hey what do I eat?" If you go and start telling people "hey, you need to work in the context of what works for you," then it might get them discouraged because they obviously are trying to look for some kind of context.

    I think this is a great first "assignment" for the community. Let's nail down a Ray Peat starter's diet plan. Let's figure out what to call it. And let's get it posted up so when new people come around, or even people who have been here and don't quite fully understand the concept yet. They will have a clear and direct path to start on.

    On the what name to call it issue. I think we should all come up with some names and post it up. We can then have a vote about it in the voting section. Once we figure out the name, and figure the exact protocol that we are going to suggest based on Ray Peats knowledge, we can post up a new thread with the new guidelines and the name we have choosen.

    My suggestions for the name are:
    Ray Peat Diet
    Basic Ray Peat Diet
    Ray Peat Healing Diet

    Those are all I can think of right now but I will add more later.

    And I will also contribute more to this thread later when I have more time. :thumbup:
     
  10. j.

    j. Member

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    Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

    I'd call it Peat style diet or peatarian diet or peat inspired diet.
     
  11. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

    I am keeping a list at the link below of the names suggested. Once everyone makes their suggestions I will start the poll.


    viewtopic.php?f=14&t=181
     
  12. ARK

    ARK Member

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    Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

    A couple of thoughts:
    -"sugar: yes, although fruits and honey are better on a consistent basis"- ( Actually if you talk to Peat he recommends SUGAR...not honey. He finds that people react to honey and if you eat it go for light honey. But, Ray prefers SUGAR and that is what he eats. And he likes COKE. And he drinks it. This is what he likes...SUGAR.
    In terms of fruit. He really recommends ripe tropical fruit....and what he likes the best is strained oj

    Also- you can't forget salt.
     
  13. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

    I have enabled it so Narouz can edit his own post in this section so he can update the diet as he gets the information nailed down for us.

    We need everyone's help on this so please post any knowledge you can share. The more heads thinking the better we can dial this in.
     
  14. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

    I will add onto the list with my suggestions in bold.


    -2 quarts of milks, or the equivalent thereof in cheese or other acceptable proteins; variable upwards as metabolism allows Milk without vitamins added preferred, 1% milk if watching your weight

    -1 quart of OJ, or the equivalent in other acceptable fruits or acceptable sugars or carbohydrates. Fresh Juice preferred strained heavily so no pulp, Store bought juice no pulp and must separate after sitting

    -potatoes: Peat has said, I believe, "you could have one per day." He mentioned a russet variety as good and perhaps this is approximately the size/amount he had in mind. Potatoes must be cooked at least 45-50 minutes and I believe its best if skin is removed

    -seafood: occasionally, but almost more like a supplement--not really for their protein. Peat has said shellfish once or twice a week as I recall, and certain kinds of warm-water fish like sole he has also said are okay--but again, only occasionally. Can add cod to the list

    -cheeses: yes, with some finer points to be wrestled withparmigiano reggiano is good, make sure cheese has no enzymes and also uses animal rennet not vegetable rennet
     
  15. j.

    j. Member

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    Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

    I wonder about the recommendation of drinking twice as much milk as OJ. I do the opposite. I tend to drink 2 quarts of OJ and 1 quart of milk per day. I just go by what I feel like drinking. Is there a rationale for drinking more milk than OJ?
     
  16. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

    I forgot to add this:

    water: yes, pure I believe I read that Ray Peat said pure water with no minerals causes a serotonin release in the body so its good to have a little salt with it
     
  17. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

    ARK, I believe you are exactly right about this. Sugar is such a widely reviled substance,
    pervading just about dietary philosophy.
    People really don't quite believe Peat when he says this himself.
    They think he's pulling their leg.
    This is one of the many radical features of the Peat "diet."
    I agree with you.

    When you really read Peat, as you know, he even refers to straight sugar
    as healing--
    maybe even more healing than fruit or other carb sources.
    like a medicine.
    (but with no nutrients, thus his suggestions about sugar temporarily and if tolerated--allegens)

    Maybe a medicine in context?
    Context being:
    A lot of Peat-Interested people coming because of disenchantment with Paleo/Primal/LowCarb...?

    Something Peat hates is corporate hypnotism.
    The whole sugar saga is cool to view through a Peat lens.
    Surprising, for me.
    It took me a few days to absorb it. :lol:
     
  18. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

    This is an excellent question!
     
  19. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

    I was wondering if maybe we should add coffee to list?
     
  20. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    Personally, I'm not in a hurry with this...

    This project--trying to define something like a "BPD"--IS a thorny one.
    I believe it could be very useful and clarifying, but there ARE many problems to be solved.
    To me, it is much more important to proceed slowly and hear everybody out
    than for me or anyone to hastily dictate a definition and name.

    I think, even here in its infant stage, there is a lot of guidance toward the goal.
    So newcomers and wonderers (like myself) can take some encouragement, I would think,
    from even these initial efforts to provide some outlines.

    Personally, I wouldn't mind having this "project" permanently up for revision...
    well, up until Dr. Peat pays us a visit and tells us how it's gonna be!

    I really look forward to the process--the wrestling with those thorny problems
    and the threshing out of interpretation and judgement
    (hopefully more threshing than thrashing :D ).
    There's a lot of information out there,
    and as we're seeing not all of it comes from Peat's articles and books and interviews.
    A lot comes from individuals reporting what Peat has said to them personally.

    I want to re-state what must be perfectly obvious:
    I am not a trained scientist, biologist, or nutritionist.
    Nor am I even a real Peat expert.
    I'm just a guy trying to use his wee brain to clarify this fascinating Peat world.
    So I need all the help I can get! ;)
     
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