Peat Eating And Weight Gain

[milushq]

Narouz, hi!
May I suggest? I think you should try to cut down starches and lean meat as well. You could replace starches with fruits and lean meat with gelatin and beef liver(once a week), maybe, some seafood and eggs. And yes, you should count your calorie intake, at list till your metabolism will switch to burning glucose for energy, instead of fat.
I gained weight as well, about 10 pounds at least, then I went to 1% milk and no starch and it helped. Try it before you give up. Our cells are still not very responsive to thyroid hormone, cause they are loaded with PUFAs. Good luck!

 

[narouz]

Narouz, hi!
May I suggest? I think you should try to cut down starches and lean meat as well. You could replace starches with fruits and lean meat with gelatin and beef liver(once a week), maybe, some seafood and eggs. And yes, you should count your calorie intake, at list till your metabolism will switch to burning glucose for energy, instead of fat.
I gained weight as well, about 10 pounds at least, then I went to 1% milk and no starch and it helped. Try it before you give up. Our cells are still not very responsive to thyroid hormone, cause they are loaded with PUFAs. Good luck!

Thank you, milushq.
Those are good ideas.
It hasn't been very long since I took the half&half out of the equation
(I found I was consuming about a 1/2 gallon a week! ).
And the general tightening down on all fats...
really haven't given it enough time to see if that works.
As an experiment, I'd like to see that through a bit.

But I'm afraid you may be right about
simply restricting calories.
I don't think I've ever done that,
and it would be a bummer, but...
I guess I'd be up for it.

The starch thing: yes...I don't eat much
but I could try eliminating them too.
And the lean meats: again yes, as Peat does say
they suppress metabolism.
I don't eat very much,
but I could try zeroing it out.

I think your general comment about PUFA poisoning
at, I suppose you'd say, the tissue or even cellular level,
and Long-Standing, intense PUFA poisoning at that--
I was practically eating a "Perfect PUFA Plan" kind of diet for YEARS,
nearly a DECADE...

I'm not blind to the possibility that to reverse such poisoning is a long-term thing.
Peat has said, especially I think in the context of damaged thyroid,
that 3-4 years is a reasonable guess.

On the other hand,
and from Peat--
he seems to generally respond to weight-loss struggles
NOT with a restrictive approach.
He seems to advocate keeping one's foot on the (metabolic) gas
by getting at least baseline adequate fruit and protein intake
(plus all the other Peat stuff, supplements)
and...(here's where the scenario is sketchy)...then...
well, there might be some waiting involved.
Waiting while being at least somewhat fat,
to put it bluntly.
It would be a drag,
but...I guess I could handle that.

Thank you very much, M.
Please keep me updated with your progress (or non-, ha).
One cool thing that could happen here
with a thread like this
is we could begin to centralize and develop
a kind of data base on this "weight gain with Peat" thang.

 

[milushq]

You might be surprised, if you never counted your calories, Narouz!;-) The point in Peat's ideas is to up regulate Basal metabolic rate(resting metabolism). Untill we get this done, we can gain weight easily, when we concume more than needed in terms of energy or calories. What we need to do is to support our resting metabolism nutritionally and with phisical activity(build muscles) and supplements(maybe, some thyroid). I was shocked when I first time had my calories counted on this diet. I was consuming 400 to 500 Ckal more, than I needed without even noticing. When I cut those down, I slowly started to loose some weight. And I'm not hungry without those 400 Ckal, I just eat smaller portions more frequently. I will update my progress(if any), but my main goal is not loosing weight, so I hope it will be accomplished too.

 

[charlie]

narouz, here are some free sites to track calories on if you are interested.


http://www.myfitnesspal.com/ I like this one but it doesn't give vitamin, minerals, micro-nutrient intake for the day.

http://cronometer.com/ I REALLY like this one, it gives everything that the above doesn't, however, you do not have a breakfast, lunch and dinner tab, so it all blends together. So I just separated my meals with 2 glasses of water and that sorta worked.

http://www.fitday.com/ And then there is Fit Day which is pretty good, it tracks your micro-nutrients fairly well.

If I had to pick, I would pick cronometer but not being able to separate breakfast, lunch and dinner can be annoying for me.

 

[Birdie]

One more to consider is fatsecret... I joined that one because Brittany was using it. I have never counted calories since I was in college. And when I was in college, counting calories, I gained weight.... But, when I came to the RP Fans, since everyone was keeping track of their proportions of Carbs, Ptn and Fats, I joined in.. So, for a few weeks I kept track. Good for knowledge.. Anyway, naturally, I gained weight as is my way.. But, now, I use the info when needed to clarify. And I weigh in every 2 weeks. I do not keep track of calories.

History: I gained 9 lbs by last March trying to follow the Peat Protocol. I started somewhere in October with Peat. For background, I'd been off gluten for 15 years and off grains for about 5. Then, feeling I needed some support in my eating, I looked online in Jan 2011 and since I was eating semi - Primal, looked for support there.. Started following Mark's Daily Apple and gained 10 lbs. Switched to Jaminet and gained 10 more. From the PHD site, I found Ray, who I thought was a lot closer to what I'd been eating before starting the online support. However, I began to overdo the ice cream, and got my 9 more pounds that way.. (And note that I wasn't as close to Peat as I first thought in that I avoided sugar and limited fruit.)

So, by straightening the food out, low fat and following advice, I've lost 8 pounds. I feel much better than I did 8 pounds up. I move better. However, I really moved better and felt better before I got involved in looking for support online, when I weighed about 20 pounds less than now. I'm glad to be here on Peat though. I've learned a lot. I think, with time, I'll be healthier than I was before Jan 2011. I have no real weight goals. What counts is that I eat right and not overeat. Then, I'll accept the outcome weight wise. :)

 

[narouz]

narouz, here are some free sites to track calories on if you are interested.


http://www.myfitnesspal.com/ I like this one but it doesn't give vitamin, minerals, micro-nutrient intake for the day.

http://cronometer.com/ I REALLY like this one, it gives everything that the above doesn't, however, you do not have a breakfast, lunch and dinner tab, so it all blends together. So I just separated my meals with 2 glasses of water and that sorta worked.

http://www.fitday.com/ And then there is Fit Day which is pretty good, it tracks your micro-nutrients fairly well.

If I had to pick, I would pick cronometer but not being able to separate breakfast, lunch and dinner can be annoying for me.

Thanks, Charlie.
Boy, the calorie counting/weighing thing...
...it seems almost a cure worse than the disease!
But..I may have to explore it if I get much fatter.

 

[narouz]

When People Say, "It's Just Glycogen and Water"...

...what does that mean, exactly?
And why should it make me feel any better
about my fatness?

I'm just starting to explore this whole "glycogen" thing.
Isn't glycation when sugars are bound to a protein?
And glycolysis is when it is broken apart?

As I'm dimly, dimly seeing it now:
glycolysis is a way for the body to get energy,
but not a very efficient or healthy one.

Maybe the point some are trying to make
is that glycogen is a healthier source of energy
than fat?

So, to summarize the sheer tonnage of my ignorance:
-glycogen is stored in order to be fuel in glycolysis
-glycolysis is not a great way to make energy, but...
-...it's better than using fat for energy, especially PUFA-ridden fat...?

Maybe I'm mixing things up.
I thought glycogen was stored in the liver.
Why would I be storing it all over my body?

There. Nobody can accuse me of being afraid of revealing my ignorance!

 

[milushq]

Narouz, you're funny!
You store your glycogen in your liver and in your muscles. Your liver glycogen you use between meals and at night, your muscle use their glycogen when you exercise. Glucose oxidation is more efficient(about 18 times more efficient) , than glycolysis, but when there is no enough readily available glucose in your blood, you switch to glycolysis and when all your glycogen is used up you start to metabolize your own tissues(protein and fat). To understand the problems with fat oxidation we need to learn about free fatty acids and their effect on metabolism.

Stress and starvation lead to a relative reliance on the fats stored in the tissues, and the mobilization of these as circulating free fatty acids contributes to a slowing of metabolism and a shift away from the use of glucose for energy. This is adaptive in the short term, since relatively little glucose is stored in the tissues (as glycogen), and the proteins making up the body would be rapidly consumed for energy, if it were not for the reduced energy demands resulting from the effects of the free fatty acids.

Dr. R.Peat
That's where aspirin comes into play!

Aspirin activates both glycolysis and mitochondrial respiration, and this means that it shifts the mitochondria away from the oxidation of fats, toward the oxidation of glucose, resulting in the increased production of carbon dioxide. Its action on the glycolytic enzyme, GAPDH, is the opposite of estrogen's. The shift away from fat oxidation under the influence of aspirin doesn't lead to an accumulation of free fatty acids in the circulation, since aspirin inhibits the release of fatty acids from both phospholipids and triglycerides.

Dr. R.Peat

 

[narouz]

Milushq, thanks for that Peat info!
I just saw this over on Danny Roddy's site:
Cold Shower Syndrome: Sloppy Sex, Clean Drugs & The Secret Lives of Mitochondrion

"Glycolysis (Inefficient & proinflammatory) - When the mitochondria are starved for oxygen (or have oxygen, but are damaged as Otto Warburg pointed out), they produce less ATP, less CO2, swell, take up calcium, and produce pro-inflammatory lactic acid. The lack of oxygen, accumulation of lactic acid, loss of magnesium, accumulation of intracellular calcium, further damages the mitochondria causing it to adapt or die."

I take that to be Danny's spin on Peat's ideas about energy.
One can clearly see there that glycolysis in not a wonderful way to produce one's energy!
("Inefficient & pro-inflammatory").

And I believe you, Milushq, said it was like 18 times less efficient than...
well, I guess it would be called "oxidative metabolism."
Here's what Danny says (same article):

The stability and health of the cell is governed by its ability to consume oxygen and produce energy. Oxidative energy, which provides more ATP than glycolysis, is supportive of cellular health:

Oxidative Energy (Efficient & antinflammatory) - In the presence of active thyroid hormone (T3), the mitochondria of the cell consumes oxygen and produces energy (ATP) and carbon dioxide (CO2). A healthy cell is in a "high-energy" state; thus the oxidative production of energy (more ATP) is supportive of the structure and functionality of the cell.
Glycolysis (Inefficient & proinflammatory) - When the mitochondria are starved for oxygen (or have oxygen, but are damaged as Otto Warburg pointed out), they produce less ATP, less CO2, swell, take up calcium, and produce pro-inflammatory lactic acid. The lack of oxygen, accumulation of lactic acid, loss of magnesium, accumulation of intracellular calcium, further damages the mitochondria causing it to adapt or die.

So, to return to my original question,
when I complain about my present fatness under Peatian eating,
and rather expert Peatians say:
"I wouldn't worry about it, it's probably just glycogen and water"...

...well, why should that console me?
Seems like it confirms that I am not making energy at all efficiently or healthily.

Maybe it's a step up from burning PUFA-fat?

 

[milushq]

Narouz, no one sad, that glycolysis is good all the time, but you can't live without it! You need plan B(and sometimes even plan C) in order to survive. What Danny is talking about it is inefficient oxidative metabolism, it's when you eat, but instead of producing 36 ATP you produse 2(through glycolysis) - that's a problem! But between meals, and at night time you still need energy, which is provided to you by your liver's glycogen. So, it's good thing when your liver and muscle store enough glycogen, because, till it used up, you are not burning your own tissues and not function on stress hormones. Of course, it's not that simple, like I explained, it's much more complicated, but that's what we are trying to achieve - efficient oxidative metabolism right after the meal and good storage of glycogen for the stressful night time.

 

[narouz]

Thank you, Milushq.

I don't suppose you have any experience with iron?
My ferritin was 390 as I was beginning Peat eating.
Now it is 621 !
Yikes.

 

[milushq]

Yeh, I actually had very low iron and hemoglobin before I started, after 2 years of vegan raw food experiments. I've checked this once since then, it was rising, but still low, so I don't really care now, cause I finally feel good, I feel improvement in almost every area in my life.
Do you drink coffee, Narouz? I drink three cups a day, especially after I eat liver. It's very beneficial for men to donate blood once in a while. Have you tried this?
I have some interesting stuff from Dr. Peat's old newsletter about iron, PUFAS, estrogen and their connection to lipofuscin, and how lipofuscin is connected with life expectancy of an animal. I guess, I'll post it to appropriate topic.

 

[narouz]

Milushq, thanks.
I have read Peat's article on his website.
That whole lipofuscum (sp?) thing probably formed my initiation to PeatDom:
the Yellow (from iron!) Death Fat!

I have read that it is difficult to interpret ferritin--
that it is not always a clear, simple measure of iron.
But...I guess it's clear enough
from Peat's perspective
that my iron (w/ ferritin 621) is very high.

And yes, I do know about blood donation,
and have been intending to do it for months now...
I think I'm procrastinating because I don't enjoy needles in my veins.
But I gotta do it,
so I will.

Is Peat still doing the newsletter?
I have been wanting to subscribe.

I do drink coffee,
but I have a hard time always consuming it
With meat,
because I eat meat more often at night,
so not very natural for me to drink coffee then.
Guess I should eat meat in the daytime.

 

[narouz]

Keeping It Real

"Also keep in mind that if you have been eating PUFAs in the past, the oil change in your tissues takes up to four years during which your fat stores will be releasing enough PUFAs to cause you some troubles, so it requires some patience and also some skillful means to counteract their effects, like getting some extra vitamin E or a little thyroid to counteract their antithyroid action etc. It all depends on how your metabolism works."

--Ray Peat (over at http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=419742)

As I say, keeping it real.
We often hear of the wondrous and quick results
of a Peat diet
(I know, I know...no such thing :? ),
but I suspect there are at least as many
who do not experience good results quickly.
(Perhaps one interpretative phenomenon to bear in mind here might be self-selective reporting:
those who do experience brisk results are eager to report them,
whereas those who do not sortuv tend to just drop off the face of the Peat ethernet world--
they give up and are not heard from.)

Those of us who are older (I'm pushing 60)
and who have been
stuffing ourselves programmatically along low-carb lines
(fish oils, olive oil as wonderfood, chicken w/skin, walnuts, almonds, avocados, etc)
and doing exhausting high-intensity or endurance workouts,
and who are showing degradation of our endocrine system...

...I think it is important to "keep it real."
Not to lose hope.
Just to be realistic.

Peat does say, to repeat (ha):

if you have been eating PUFAs in the past, the oil change in your tissues takes up to four years during which your fat stores will be releasing enough PUFAs to cause you some troubles, so it requires some patience

4 years.
Four.
"...it requires some patience."

It's probably likely that there is generally this kind of relationship:
the older one is and the more stuffed with PUFAs
the longer to see results from Peat eating.

 

[j.]

I saw quick results, in that I have a lot more ability to eat sugar, but I'm younger than 30.

 

[charlie]

Was listening to Sugar 1 and Sugar 2 radio interviews with Dr Peat today. They are packed full of info, definitely worth listening to. I have sugar 1 posted up which you can click here to listen, will work on getting sugar 2 up.

Anyways, he said if a person wanted to lose weight. They should stick with a high fruit, milk, and cheese, and stay away from muscle meats due to lowering metabolism, and also stay away from fish for the same reason. He also said that potatoes and starches will make you fat because they cause an immediate storage of fat due to the high insulin release. He said the reason you want milk/cheese is because of the high calcium content which he says is an excellent metabolism enhancer/booster.

 

[narouz]

Healthy Weight Maintenance and Peat Diet

Was listening to Sugar 1 and Sugar 2 radio interviews with Dr Peat today. They are packed full of info, definitely worth listening to. I have sugar 1 posted up which you can click here to listen, will work on getting sugar 2 up.

Anyways, he said if a person wanted to lose weight. They should stick with a high fruit, milk, and cheese, and stay away from muscle meats due to lowering metabolism, and also stay away from fish for the same reason. He also said that potatoes and starches will make you fat because they cause an immediate storage of fat due to the high insulin release. He said the reason you want milk/cheese is because of the high calcium content which he says is an excellent metabolism enhancer/booster.

Thanks, Charlie.
I'd love to listen to those.
The excerpts you give aren't surprising,
but they are valuable because they are so Focused upon the subject of Weight: gain and loss.

That is one of many tricky things about trying to work out a general Peat chart.
Should one consideration for such a chart be
maintaining a healthy weight?

I can see some strong arguments why it should be.
I'm not saying that the central motive shaping a Peat food chart
should be an obsession with body image--
"six-pack abs," "I don't care if you like me, I just want you to think I'm thin" (is that Sara Silverman?)--
I'm just saying "a healthy weight."
Not an anorexic or narcissistic or mass-culture-induced obsession.
Just a healthy weight.

Isn't that part of a healthy diet?
And don't most smart people want to be healthy?

I'm trying to be transparent about what might be seen as my own "agenda."
If one is masochistic enough to read through my posts here
one knows that that is one of my struggles with the Peat diet.
But I don't want that to become a conscious or subconscious "agenda."
I don't want the chart to be "all about Moi."

At the same time,
I don't want to dance around the subject
and try to evade it.

In short:
seems like the issue of Weight
should reasonably be one of many considerations to be weighed
in constructing a "Peat Derived Diet Chart"
(and all that it implies).

 

[charlie]

Sugar 2 is up now. Click here.

 

[narouz]

Peat advice

Mary Shomon: Do you have any thoughts for thyroid patients who are trying to do everything right, and yet still can't lose any weight?

Dr. Ray Peat: Coconut oil added to the diet can increase the metabolic rate. Small frequent feedings, each combining some carbohydrate and some protein, such as fruit and cheese, often help to keep the metabolic rate higher. Eating raw carrots can prevent the absorption of estrogen from the intestine, allowing the liver to more effectively regulate metabolism. If a person doesn't lose excess weight on a moderately low calorie diet with adequate protein, it's clear that the metabolic rate is low. The number of calories burned is a good indicator of the metabolic rate. The amount of water lost by evaporation is another rough indicator: For each liter of water evaporated, about 1000 calories are burned.

This (obviously) is from that interview with Mary Shomon.
Interesting that Peat doesn't show a lot of interest in restricting calories.
He always seems to point to metabolism, and how to get it cranked up

 

[narouz]

More Peat Thoughts

Some weight-gain related stuff from Peat:

from another Roddy blog article: Peat vs Paleo
http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/4/4/peat-vs-paleo.html

As for sugar vs. starch:
"Starch and glucose efficiently stimulate insulin secretion, and that accelerates the disposition of glucose, activating its conversion to glycogen and fat, as well as its oxidation. Fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (a disaccharide, consisting of glucose and fructose), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat."--Peat

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