K2/Kuinone/ Aromatase and HAIR LOSS

[JamesGatz]

How much did you apply? I've seen blood work where scrotal vitamin K2 skyrocketed testosterone, but also estrogen (due to free T being very high), so I'd have a look at estradiol and prolactin. K2 is an aromatase inhibitor, but rather mild if free T is super high.

This makes a lot of sense - now I see why I got bad histamine reactions from it 30 minutes after

 

[baccheion]

This makes a lot of sense - now I see why I got bad histamine reactions from it 30 minutes after

What foods do you eat? I'm guessing vitamin K2 MK-4 would shine with raw GOMAD or 1.5 ounces per pound of 1% milk (assumes 16% body fat; 1 ounce liver; some iron, salt, and any other supplements). Get lactose-free if necessary.

The lookism ones take 10,000 IU vitamin D3 also, but it's with 90 mg MK-4. 15 mg with each 4 cup GOMAD serving may work just as well due to higher fat (close to 34.5g) doubling absorption.

 

[equipoise]

No further hair loss with Kuinone even up to doses of 45mg daily. Amazing strength and sinus clearance however. This supplement had the biggest impact on my chronic sinusitis which is non existant now.

 

[JamesGatz]

What foods do you eat? I'm guessing vitamin K2 MK-4 would shine with raw GOMAD or 1.5 ounces per pound of 1% milk (assumes 16% body fat; 1 ounce liver; some iron, salt, and any other supplements). Get lactose-free if necessary.

The lookism ones take 10,000 IU vitamin D3 also, but it's with 90 mg MK-4. 15 mg with each 4 cup GOMAD serving may work just as well due to higher fat (close to 34.5g) doubling absorption.

A lot of low-fat milk, Gelatin, OJ from fresh oranges, pineapple, a little bit of chocolate, watermelon occasionally, Mexican Coke, coffee, white rice, occasional homemade pizza or sourdough bread -

I would like to think my estrogen is usually kept in check with this - I usually only get slight estrogenic effects from starches, but I salt it well and coffee or coke keeps thing moving and it's usually never a problem. I know my estrogen gets bad when I'm getting bad histamine reactions and my serotonin seems to rise with it - this is what K2 does to me and it takes a lot to bring it back down - (a combination of carrot salad, caffeine, lowfat milk, OJ)

I am guessing K2 blocks DHT to an extent given that free test skyrockets and estrogen rises unchecked - I also notice anything that reduces DHT/5AR specifically makes me feel "dumber" which is what K2 does to me.

 

[Scenes]

No further hair loss with Kuinone even up to doses of 45mg daily. Amazing strength and sinus clearance however. This supplement had the biggest impact on my chronic sinusitis which is non existant now.

What changed?

 

[Dr. B]

A lot of low-fat milk, Gelatin, OJ from fresh oranges, pineapple, a little bit of chocolate, watermelon occasionally, Mexican Coke, coffee, white rice, occasional homemade pizza or sourdough bread -

I would like to think my estrogen is usually kept in check with this - I usually only get slight estrogenic effects from starches, but I salt it well and coffee or coke keeps thing moving and it's usually never a problem. I know my estrogen gets bad when I'm getting bad histamine reactions and my serotonin seems to rise with it - this is what K2 does to me and it takes a lot to bring it back down - (a combination of carrot salad, caffeine, lowfat milk, OJ)

I am guessing K2 blocks DHT to an extent given that free test skyrockets and estrogen rises unchecked - I also notice anything that reduces DHT/5AR specifically makes me feel "dumber" which is what K2 does to me.

did you blood test or how do you know K2 blocks dht and skyrockets estrogen?
K2 in higher doses seems to have a pro prolactin or pro estrogen effect, it seems its due to its effect on calcium and maybe raising PTH, due to calcium getting too low.
what low fat milk is this? low fat milk has added vitamins with toxic filler ingredients if youre in the states

 

[baccheion]

A lot of low-fat milk, Gelatin, OJ from fresh oranges, pineapple, a little bit of chocolate, watermelon occasionally, Mexican Coke, coffee, white rice, occasional homemade pizza or sourdough bread -

I would like to think my estrogen is usually kept in check with this - I usually only get slight estrogenic effects from starches, but I salt it well and coffee or coke keeps thing moving and it's usually never a problem. I know my estrogen gets bad when I'm getting bad histamine reactions and my serotonin seems to rise with it - this is what K2 does to me and it takes a lot to bring it back down - (a combination of carrot salad, caffeine, lowfat milk, OJ)

I am guessing K2 blocks DHT to an extent given that free test skyrockets and estrogen rises unchecked - I also notice anything that reduces DHT/5AR specifically makes me feel "dumber" which is what K2 does to me.

I took 15 mg vitamin K2 MK-4 once after taking 75 mg micronized pregnenolone. Rather than the usual effects, my skin got darker and my eyes bigger in the DHT way. My shoulder muscles also filled up (still are) from a handful of pushups. Unsure why, but made me think the combo lowered estrogen. On the other hand, I was also taking 60,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and was only getting 1-2 grams potassium. Maybe it was the iodine protocol levels of iodine, as iodine pushes estrogens toward estriol.

What about 4 cups 1% milk, 2 cups orange juice, and 1 egg per meal. Repeat as needed to get enough calories. 1.5 ounces per pound at 16% body fat. Many waste the egg shell membrane, but 4 of them (boiled/cleaned and crushed up) provide 250 mg hyaluonic acid. They are also collagenous and supply glucosamine + chondroitin.

If needing more salt, then also add 1 ounce liver.

Some are allergic to K2.

Have you ever run labs to check/verify effects on estrogen? Does the same effect occur when K2 is taken with vitamin D3?

 

[Dr. B]

I took 15 mg vitamin K2 MK-4 once after taking 75 mg micronized pregnenolone. Rather than the usual effects, my skin got darker and my eyes bigger in the DHT way. My shoulder muscles also filled up (still are) from a handful of pushups. Unsure why, but made me think the combo lowered estrogen. On the other hand, I was also taking 60,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and was only getting 1-2 grams potassium. Maybe it was the iodine protocol levels of iodine, as iodine pushes estrogens toward estriol.

What about 4 cups 1% milk, 2 cups orange juice, and 1 egg per meal. Repeat as needed to get enough calories. 1.5 ounces per pound at 16% body fat. Many waste the egg shell membrane, but 4 of them (boiled/cleaned and crushed up) provide 250 mg hyaluonic acid. They are also collagenous and supply glucosamine + chondroitin.

If needing more salt, then also add 1 ounce liver.

Some are allergic to K2.

Have you ever run labs to check/verify effects on estrogen? Does the same effect occur when K2 is taken with vitamin D3?

does dht darken skin? does progesterone lighten it? how's the skin darkness related.
iodine is interesting but it can reduce thyroid function and once thyroid is reduced, estrogen will go back up.
whys K2 allergenic? i imagine its a sourcing issue with modern K2, isnt it sourced from some type of plant usually?

 

[JamesGatz]

did you blood test or how do you know K2 blocks dht and skyrockets estrogen?
K2 in higher doses seems to have a pro prolactin or pro estrogen effect, it seems its due to its effect on calcium and maybe raising PTH, due to calcium getting too low.
what low fat milk is this? low fat milk has added vitamins with toxic filler ingredients if youre in the states

I personally feel anti-androgen effects from K2 and my theory is -
- K2 has some sort of suppressive effect on 5AR - preventing more free testosterone from converting to DHT while at the same time boosting free test
- free test rises, estradiol rises with it (goes unchecked since DHT is lowered to counter-act this)
- histamine reactions and elevated serotonin due to rise in estradiol

This is my theory - It could be a lot of things - but even if I don't take any supplements and get it from potatoes, I get the same reaction (another thing I thought of is allergy to potatoes and that all the supplements I tried source from potatoes)

While I was taking K2 my calcium was probably 2-2.5 grams daily - I'm not sure if it would get too low from micro-dosing K2.

I do live in the states but I seem to take A2 low-fat milk well with the vitamins, no problems until I get the K2.

 

[JamesGatz]

I took 15 mg vitamin K2 MK-4 once after taking 75 mg micronized pregnenolone. Rather than the usual effects, my skin got darker and my eyes bigger in the DHT way. My shoulder muscles also filled up (still are) from a handful of pushups. Unsure why, but made me think the combo lowered estrogen. On the other hand, I was also taking 60,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and was only getting 1-2 grams potassium. Maybe it was the iodine protocol levels of iodine, as iodine pushes estrogens toward estriol.

What about 4 cups 1% milk, 2 cups orange juice, and 1 egg per meal. Repeat as needed to get enough calories. 1.5 ounces per pound at 16% body fat. Many waste the egg shell membrane, but 4 of them (boiled/cleaned and crushed up) provide 250 mg hyaluonic acid. They are also collagenous and supply glucosamine + chondroitin.

If needing more salt, then also add 1 ounce liver.

Some are allergic to K2.

Have you ever run labs to check/verify effects on estrogen? Does the same effect occur when K2 is taken with vitamin D3?

That is interesting, I would not be surprised if it was an allergic reaction as well - it sucks that its difficult to find higher sources of K2 naturally without resorting to potatoes to test this out.

My low-fat milk has added D3 so I have only ever taken K2 with D3 given that there is no lowfat milk in the states without added vitamins

 

[Dr. B]

That is interesting, I would not be surprised if it was an allergic reaction as well - it sucks that its difficult to find higher sources of K2 naturally without resorting to potatoes to test this out.

My low-fat milk has added D3 so I have only ever taken K2 with D3 given that there is no lowfat milk in the states without added vitamins

what do you mean resorting to potatoes? are they high in K2?

low fat milk doesnt have much D3, how much milk are you drinking, gallon a day?
added vitamins = added propylene glycol/polysorbate 80 in the milk those are both inflammatory allergenic ingredients

I personally feel anti-androgen effects from K2 and my theory is -
- K2 has some sort of suppressive effect on 5AR - preventing more free testosterone from converting to DHT while at the same time boosting free test
- free test rises, estradiol rises with it (goes unchecked since DHT is lowered to counter-act this)
- histamine reactions and elevated serotonin due to rise in estradiol

This is my theory - It could be a lot of things - but even if I don't take any supplements and get it from potatoes, I get the same reaction (another thing I thought of is allergy to potatoes and that all the supplements I tried source from potatoes)

While I was taking K2 my calcium was probably 2-2.5 grams daily - I'm not sure if it would get too low from micro-dosing K2.

I do live in the states but I seem to take A2 low-fat milk well with the vitamins, no problems until I get the K2.

some websites list K2 mk7 and K1 as 5ar inhibitors.
not sure about k2 MK4, is that what you used?

does estrogen cause rise in histamine/serotonin? histamine reaction meaning like allergy symptoms runny nose etc?
are potatoes a K2 food or something? i thought theyd just have K1

 

[JamesGatz]

what do you mean resorting to potatoes? are they high in K2?

low fat milk doesnt have much D3, how much milk are you drinking, gallon a day?
added vitamins = added propylene glycol/polysorbate 80 in the milk those are both inflammatory allergenic ingredients



some websites list K2 mk7 and K1 as 5ar inhibitors.
not sure about k2 MK4, is that what you used?

does estrogen cause rise in histamine/serotonin? histamine reaction meaning like allergy symptoms runny nose etc?
are potatoes a K2 food or something? i thought theyd just have K1

I am drinking a little less than half a gallon a day. What I had tried was Kuinone (K2-MK4) - I listed potatoes because the reaction I get from it is similar, but I am not sure what form of vitamin K they have.

Estradiol is a mast cell activator and I'm pretty sure estradiol and serotonin tend to rise together, but I can't recall exactly how this process worked

In this case my reaction was breaking out in tingling/itching, my skin gets more "chicken-skin" like (Keratosis pilaris) and If I don't take something to lower estradiol feels like I'm about to break out in hives - seems like a very inflammatory reaction that looks similar to what I get when my estradiol is high

 

[NommyWommy]

No further hair loss with Kuinone even up to doses of 45mg daily. Amazing strength and sinus clearance however. This supplement had the biggest impact on my chronic sinusitis which is non existant now.

How did you apply it to get rid of your chronic sinusitis? I have a constantly blocked nose.

 

[equipoise]

How did you apply it to get rid of your chronic sinusitis? I have a constantly blocked nose.

Just applied anywhere on the body topically

 

[peter88]

Just applied anywhere on the body topically

Where on the body have you noticed the best results? I was thinking of trying my navel.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

If you take the MK4 with even just a little bit of MK7 (100 mcg), adequate magnesium and Vitamin D, the hair loss can be almost entirely avoided.

 

[Dr. B]

If you take the MK4 with even just a little bit of MK7 (100 mcg), adequate magnesium and Vitamin D, the hair loss can be almost entirely avoided.

how does the MK7 help against hair loss when using mk4?
how do magnesium and vitamin d make a difference with hair loss when using mk4?

 

[MyUsernameHere]

how does the MK7 help against hair loss when using mk4?
how do magnesium and vitamin d make a difference with hair loss when using mk4?

MK7 is a mild 5-AR inhibitor:

Testosterone 5 alpha-reductase inhibitors, menaquinone 7 produced by a Bacillus and phenazine methosulfate - PubMed

Menaquinone 7 (MW: 649, C46H64O2), a natural electron acceptor for steroid ring A dehydrogenations, produced by Bacillus sp. SNU-299, was isolated as a rat prostate testosterone 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor with an IC50 value of 4.0 x 10(-5) M from the cultured broth. Phylloquinone was as active...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It doesn't give the usual 5-AR side effects though, so I would say more of a 'regulator', but I have noticed it to be helpful for hair.

I'm not sure through what mechanism Vitamin D and magnesium help other than D being generally 'good' for hair and magnesium should help increase levels of hormones such as DHEA and Progesterone.

Anyway that is just my anecdotal observation. Taking K2 MK4 on its own I have noticed much more severe hair loss as compared to taking with the above.

 

[CheckMate]

MK7 is a mild 5-AR inhibitor:

Testosterone 5 alpha-reductase inhibitors, menaquinone 7 produced by a Bacillus and phenazine methosulfate - PubMed

Menaquinone 7 (MW: 649, C46H64O2), a natural electron acceptor for steroid ring A dehydrogenations, produced by Bacillus sp. SNU-299, was isolated as a rat prostate testosterone 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor with an IC50 value of 4.0 x 10(-5) M from the cultured broth. Phylloquinone was as active...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It doesn't give the usual 5-AR side effects though, so I would say more of a 'regulator', but I have noticed it to be helpful for hair.

I'm not sure through what mechanism Vitamin D and magnesium help other than D being generally 'good' for hair and magnesium should help increase levels of hormones such as DHEA and Progesterone.

Anyway that is just my anecdotal observation. Taking K2 MK4 on its own I have noticed much more severe hair loss as compared to taking with the above.

I'm taking 5kUI d3 after breakfast + 6mg mk4, same dosage after dinner, a lot of mag and i can tell for sure that hair improved so much. Also MSM is really helpful for me

 

[Dr. B]

MK7 is a mild 5-AR inhibitor:

Testosterone 5 alpha-reductase inhibitors, menaquinone 7 produced by a Bacillus and phenazine methosulfate - PubMed

Menaquinone 7 (MW: 649, C46H64O2), a natural electron acceptor for steroid ring A dehydrogenations, produced by Bacillus sp. SNU-299, was isolated as a rat prostate testosterone 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor with an IC50 value of 4.0 x 10(-5) M from the cultured broth. Phylloquinone was as active...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It doesn't give the usual 5-AR side effects though, so I would say more of a 'regulator', but I have noticed it to be helpful for hair.

I'm not sure through what mechanism Vitamin D and magnesium help other than D being generally 'good' for hair and magnesium should help increase levels of hormones such as DHEA and Progesterone.

Anyway that is just my anecdotal observation. Taking K2 MK4 on its own I have noticed much more severe hair loss as compared to taking with the above.

how much MK4 do you use? why does it cause so much hair loss