Some SOLID Bro Science On Balding

[GorillaHead]

Any Peaty explanation why dermarolling works?

dermarolling is regeneration. All the growth factors pop right up and induce growth. Its almost necessary if anyone wants to regrow their hair

 

[Estradiol]

Cortisol shots to scalp treats Alopecia areata. Anyone know about Progesterone injections to scalp? These shots are painful women says. But sounds therapeutic to AGA. Progesterone is anti-fibrotic, anti-cortisol, anti-estrogen and inhibits adrenal androgens.

Oral micronized Progesterone doesn't work for me apparently.

 

[Ableton]

I once lived a homeless life for 2-3 days, when I first arrived in the US in NYC. First day was difficult, felt very stressed. The 2nd and 3rd day, something happened, it's like the stress became a part of me. Could it be that maybe the body normalizes the adrenaline / stress response, and you also reach a point where you just stop giving too much *****, and that in itself, promotes gaba.
My theory is that homeless people are not chronically stressed. In fact, the people whose purpose is to rise through the corporate ladder, are the most stressed.

yes, homeless people are not stressed
You were stressed, because you were figuring ***t out. That was corporate ladder type stress you experienced, and I bet you got tons of ***t do e in that timeframe
I have a similar story to tell, 3 days homeless, found job, took uni courses and found apartment in 72 hours.
Stress hormones are really effective

 

[mrchibbs]

yes, homeless people are not stressed
You were stressed, because you were figuring ***t out. That was corporate ladder type stress you experienced, and I bet you got tons of ***t do e in that timeframe
I have a similar story to tell, 3 days homeless, found job, took uni courses and found apartment in 72 hours.
Stress hormones are really effective

Stress hormones are really important. The problem is when your exposed to them all the time, we can't really react properly when a real stress arises and we just collapse.
Transient elevations of cortisol, aldosterone, estrogen are not problematic, but they need to be short and not constant.

 

[Ableton]

The stress you feel when you are actively trying to make your life better (or have pretty much no choice) feels different from the stress you feel routinely about the job you despise, the hair you want to keep, your gf and so on
Doing nothing is also really stressful in a weird kind of way
I think this is what his post comes down too

so maybe corporate ladder isn’t the right analogy

i think it would be really healthy to frequently turn your whole life around. Routine is death

 

[mrchibbs]

The stress you feel when you are actively trying to make your life better (or have pretty much no choice) feels different from the stress you feel routinely about the job you despise, the hair you want to keep, your gf and so on
Doing nothing is also really stressful in a weird kind of way
I think this is what his post comes down too

so maybe corporate ladder isn’t the right analogy

i think it would be really healthy to frequently turn your whole life around. Routine is death

I totally agree with what you just wrote.

 

[Orangeyouglad]

We often talk about how much energy the hair follicle needs in order to produce hair. One thing I've been wondering recently is the fact that many bald guys are super hairy. If hair growth was so labor-intensive for the body, why would these bald guys be covered in hair? I think it would be hard to say that one hair follicle uses more energy than another...

So maybe it is just a blood flow issue where the follicles/tissues just aren't receiving enough of whatever they need to grow because the follicles on the top of the head are harder to reach because of whatever reason.

 

[Ableton]

So I am currently in sunny holidays and since I’m so autistic observed men and balding for 2 day straight, lol, not proud to say this. Mainly on the beach. These are my observations:
- Bald men more hairy, but not necessarily more beard. Rougher skin with bigger pores (androgens?), and more often with blue/tired eyes (stress hormones?). This is the visually bad.
- I tried to account for gym/age and so on: bald men more prone to androgenic frames/ less estrogenic fat storage. While its not hard to find a30+ y nw0 guy with a good body, it’s hard to find one with a naturally athletic one with big shoulder to hip ratio and so on. Point being, men with more hair who are not young anymore tend to store fat more around breast/hips/belly while balding fat men more around arms/shoulder/legs.
We keep saying balding might be due to estrogen, and I think it might be true. But do not make the mistake of thinking men with hair do not have E problems. They do just not have the same androgenic response to it.
Idk if those differences are better explained by differences in adrenal androgens or a different response to estrogen, or both. But heck, if we are talking 30 years plus, the best protection against baldness seems to be growing some titties and a bigger butt without getting obese, or being a pencil with very low muscle mass.

 

[Estradiol]

We often talk about how much energy the hair follicle needs in order to produce hair. One thing I've been wondering recently is the fact that many bald guys are super hairy. If hair growth was so labor-intensive for the body, why would these bald guys be covered in hair? I think it would be hard to say that one hair follicle uses more energy than another...

So maybe it is just a blood flow issue where the follicles/tissues just aren't receiving enough of whatever they need to grow because the follicles on the top of the head are harder to reach because of whatever reason.

Aromatase stimulates body hair. Taking aromatase inhibitors like Letrozole greatly reduced my upper body hair.

 

[Ableton]

Aromatase stimulates body hair. Taking aromatase inhibitors like Letrozole greatly reduced my upper body hair.

What explains high body hair but a body composition that is the exact opposite of estrogenic?
I think an androgenic and maybe protective response to estrogen does.
I don’t think it’s the estrogen itself

 

[GorillaHead]

What explains high body hair but a body composition that is the exact opposite of estrogenic?
I think an androgenic and maybe protective response to estrogen does.
I don’t think it’s the estrogen itself

Both aromatherapy deficient and dht deficient men are hairless. What people don’t get is they are both necessary for hair growth.

This is all based on some research I have done and some theories but at the end of the day it’s the balance.

 

[Broken man]

If you don't care about balding, that's your right. And we have the right to care about it and discuss it. And by the way, the evidence is overwhelmingly clear: baldness doesn't happen for no reason. It's associated with hypothyroidism, elevated aldosterone, elevated prolactin, and pathological changes to the scalp (microinflammation, chronic neuromuscular tension and fibrosis). If it was ''natural'' or purely ''genetic'' it wouldn't be associated with anything, and we would be able to say that the follicles are ''programmed to miniaturize''. But those who have spent sometime researching the topic know that idea is pure horseshit.

Personally, I don't see it as a vain pursuit. If baldness was indeed genetic inevitability and was totally independent of other health problems, yeah I'd probably say meh, and shave my head. But that is not so, it is a very clear sign of things going wrong, and I think it's a very rewarding and fascinating topic to study, discuss and experiment with.

View attachment 18346

Good one.

 

[mrchibbs]

We often talk about how much energy the hair follicle needs in order to produce hair. One thing I've been wondering recently is the fact that many bald guys are super hairy. If hair growth was so labor-intensive for the body, why would these bald guys be covered in hair? I think it would be hard to say that one hair follicle uses more energy than another...

So maybe it is just a blood flow issue where the follicles/tissues just aren't receiving enough of whatever they need to grow because the follicles on the top of the head are harder to reach because of whatever reason.

There is some evidence that scalp hair is much more energy intensive. I don't have all the references I've ever seen at hand, but for instance the scalp hair cycle is much, much longer than body hair, beard or eyebrows. Body hair can't grow for years and in length like scalp hair.

Moreover, the hairy and bald guys typically grow hair everywhere, and I think that is driven by chronic stress, which suppresses the thyroid, allowing the estrogen to rise and directly stimulate adrenal androgen production, which is evidenced by the elevated DHEA of stress. DHEA is preferentially converted into DHT in the skin, thereby androgenizing the tissues, transforming fine peach fuzz hair into terminal hair all over the body.

The fallacy that has been to say that DHT is what's causing the scalp hair loss, when really it's the estrogen, prolactin and cortisol, directly stopping the hair cycle (estrogen), causing shedding (prolactin = molting hormone) and inhibiting future regrowth (cortisol).

This process creates inflammation (a well known feature of chronic estrogen exposure), which in time leads to fibrosis and progressive loss of function of the hair follicle and surrounding scalp tissues from calcification, atrophy, fibrosis.

Blood flow is clearly a problem because peripheral circulation is regulated by thyroid function. As long as the stress threshold remains too high (constant EMF, psychosocial stress, light deficiency, toxins in the water, poor nutrition etc.), blood flow will remain restricted, and I think this is one the fundamental function of serotonin, which is the characteristic of long term stress state, as the opposite of thyroid hormone.

 

[GorillaHead]

There is some evidence that scalp hair is much more energy intensive. I don't have all the references I've ever seen at hand, but for instance the scalp hair cycle is much, much longer than body hair, beard or eyebrows. Body hair can't grow for years and in length like scalp hair.

Moreover, the hairy and bald guys typically grow hair everywhere, and I think that is driven by chronic stress, which suppresses the thyroid, allowing the estrogen to rise and directly stimulate adrenal androgen production, which is evidenced by the elevated DHEA of stress. DHEA is preferentially converted into DHT in the skin, thereby androgenizing the tissues, transforming fine peach fuzz hair into terminal hair all over the body.

The fallacy that has been to say that DHT is what's causing the scalp hair loss, when really it's the estrogen, prolactin and cortisol, directly stopping the hair cycle (estrogen), causing shedding (prolactin = molting hormone) and inhibiting future regrowth (cortisol).

This process creates inflammation (a well known feature of chronic estrogen exposure), which in time leads to fibrosis and progressive loss of function of the hair follicle and surrounding scalp tissues from calcification, atrophy, fibrosis.

Blood flow is clearly a problem because peripheral circulation is regulated by thyroid function. As long as the stress threshold remains too high (constant EMF, psychosocial stress, light deficiency, toxins in the water, poor nutrition etc.), blood flow will remain restricted, and I think this is one the fundamental function of serotonin, which is the characteristic of long term stress state, as the opposite of thyroid hormone.

Its the estrogen imbalance. In scenarios were men shift the ratio of estrogen to testosterone so significantly they become women they grow their hair back.

 

[mrchibbs]

Its the estrogen imbalance. In scenarios were men shift the ratio of estrogen to testosterone so significantly they become women they grow their hair back.

I don't agree with you.

 

[Zigzag]

I don't agree with you.

That men who have gone MTF have better hair?

 

[mrchibbs]

That men who have gone MTF have better hair?

No not that. I think I've posted several times about transgender therapy and how to it relates to hair loss.

I disagreed that it is about ''estrogen imbalance''.

From my research into MTF transgenders, the cases of reversal of baldness always involve e2+p4+CPA/Spironolactone. I think the dynamic between estrogen and progesterone is the key factor, not either in isolation. The ''menstrual cycle'' hormonal profile is really what's protective in women.

I've seen pictures of young guys (early 20s) with great hair who experienced loss of hair on e2 alone. It doesn't always happen, in some very healthy young guys with good hair, e2 doesn't visibly affect their hair in a bad way. The conventional model of using E2 to suppress androgens is ludicrous. E2 suppresses androgens by causing massive stress, not because it is the ''feminine'' hormone. It requires P4 to do its job.

I've made that claim before but I think the best and most successful transitions are healthy young girls FTM transgenders. Typically they don't give them any e2, just T. And since they have large endogenous P4 production as biological women, the T is relatively protected from aromatase, and has protective and androgenizing effects. Typically, they become very good looking/healthy young men. I think they should use DHT as well, but alas they don't.

Because of ideological reasons, FTM patients don't get DHT when they should, and MTF don't get progesterone when they should. And it leads to inadequate results, but it's worse for MTFs.

 

[Ableton]

Again, why does this chronic e exposure in bald men result in a generally more androgenic body/fat storage (my observation, but definitely the case for me)
I don’t understand
And, does a nw0 guy with wide hips, breasts have e problems?

 

[JKX]

The thing I keep in mind is that the body does not know or care whether an androgen comes from the thyroid pathway or the adrenal pathway. DHEA remains DHEA to the body, regardless of its origin. So I'm with MrChibbs on this one. The question is why do the adrenals have to upregulate? A reasonable answer appears to be that body is trying to maintain hormonal balance in the face of declining thyroid function and elevated stress.

There must be a tipping point where the adrenal compensation can no longer make up for ever increasing stress leading to an adaptation to help spare energy production. Why does hair appear to be a prime target? Thats tough to answer. I think the circulatory system has to be involved.

The factors leading to the tipping point are hugely complex with multiple paths. Why do E levels rise in the first place? Hereditary factors, endotoxin, liver issues, physical stress, chemical stress, emotional stress, nutrient deprivation... endless list...

I'm not sure I can fully answer your question. But I'll think out loud. The rise in cortisol and estrogen promoted by exercise can easily be buffered by a young healthy person. In this scenario the exercise promotes an elevation in DHEA to buffer the stress promoting an androgenic body type.

The other factors above can and will still eventually weigh into the equation, at any time and potentially result in hairloss. There will always be a tipping point where PUFA will accumulate and tissue E levels rise reducing thyroids influence and extending beyond the adrenals ability to keep balance, it's just very difficult to predict the exact time in an individuals lifetime when this will occur.

 

[Ableton]

Great response, thank you. A lot of this makes great sense to me and also to my personal story.
Here is one further question: do nw0 men with wide hips, breasts or generally feminine body fat storage not have high tissue E? Why are their adrenals not responding to it the way mine do?
I’m excluding dysmorphic men with great hair and body compositions from this, who are clearly superior in health, but very rare at a certain age these days.
I am bringing this up because men with hair are often portrayed as having clearly better health here, when most of the time I am seeing them, I think some androgens would do them good. Lets be honest, most guys past 35 look like ***t these days, even if they have hair. Super estrogenic.
I am not convinced the majority of men with hair do not have similar estrogen/thyroid problems and I am not convinced an adrenal response to it including hair loss is a bad thing from an evolutionary standpoint. I think most men with hair have the same problems without the response