Some SOLID Bro Science On Balding

[mrchibbs]

The thing I keep in mind is that the body does not know or care whether an androgen comes from the thyroid pathway or the adrenal pathway. DHEA remains DHEA to the body, regardless of its origin. So I'm with MrChibbs on this one. The question is why do the adrenals have to upregulate? A reasonable answer appears to be that body is trying to maintain hormonal balance in the face of declining thyroid function and elevated stress.

There must be a tipping point where the adrenal compensation can no longer make up for ever increasing stress leading to an adaptation to help spare energy production. Why does hair appear to be a prime target? Thats tough to answer. I think the circulatory system has to be involved.

The factors leading to the tipping point are hugely complex with multiple paths. Why do E levels rise in the first place? Hereditary factors, endotoxin, liver issues, physical stress, chemical stress, emotional stress, nutrient deprivation... endless list...

I'm not sure I can fully answer your question. But I'll think out loud. The rise in cortisol and estrogen promoted by exercise can easily be buffered by a young healthy person. In this scenario the exercise promotes an elevation in DHEA to buffer the stress promoting an androgenic body type.

The other factors above can and will still eventually weigh into the equation, at any time and potentially result in hairloss. There will always be a tipping point where PUFA will accumulate and tissue E levels rise reducing thyroids influence and extending beyond the adrenals ability to keep balance, it's just very difficult to predict the exact time in an individuals lifetime when this will occur.

I think there's good evidence that the rise in DHEA from the adrenals is adaptive - to protect from chronically elevated cortisol - , and yes at some point the part of the adrenals which makes DHEA seem to atrophy, which explains I think why elderly men tend to lose the extra body hair they accumulated throughout their adult years. Your perspective seems right, the body is trying to maintain homeostasis in the face of chronic stress, by pumping out DHEA to compensate.

Obviously we need to be more precise in terms of the evidence which backs all of this up. I read so much stuff that I get confused trying to assemble bits of evidence in a coherent way. For instance, why are adrenals inadequate at producing progesterone vs. DHEA? Ray mentioned this specifically, but I don't think there has been much research on this particular topic.

Scalp hair doesn't seem to suffer from being a target of androgens. More likely, humans have a tendency to lose scalp hair since it requires abundant peripheral blood flow and energy production. If you have the inherited tendencies and hormonal imprinting, for some it's relatively easy to get into a stress cascade, which causes loss of hair.

E levels rise with age, through aromatase. I'm sure Ray has written about this more eloquently.

 

[mrchibbs]

. I think most men with hair have the same problems without the response

That is the crux of the matter. If you are unconvinced that hair loss is driven by a certain physiological state, much of this discussion will make no sense to you.

Danny Roddy said that he's never consulted with a person losing their hair over the past 5+ years who didn't have subpar temperatures and other problem.

In my personal life, I've tested a few men with great hair, and invariably, they had good temperatures (98F+). This is anecdotal, of course, but to me it's pretty obvious.

Is it possible for a man with low 96s temperature to still have a good head of hair? To a reasonable extent yes. But being hypothyroid makes you less resilient to any stress. For instance I was hypothyroid as a kid and teenager. But my endogenous hormones and low-stress environment probably protected me from the deleterious effects of stress on my hair. When my environment changed for the worse in my early 20s, hair suffered instantly.

In a similar way, hypothyroidism is rampant among women, but they are partially protected by their menstrual cycle, and the exposure to large endogenous amounts of progesterone (and estrogen) cyclically.

So I suspect the men with the most radiant hair will always be the guys with great thyroid function. After all the role of thyroid hormones in glucose and hair follicle metabolism is indisputable.

 

[Ableton]

That is the crux of the matter. If you are unconvinced that hair loss is driven by a certain physiological state, much of this discussion will make no sense to you.

Danny Roddy said that he's never consulted with a person losing their hair over the past 5+ years who didn't have subpar temperatures and other problem.

In my personal life, I've tested a few men with great hair, and invariably, they had good temperatures (98F+). This is anecdotal, of course, but to me it's pretty obvious.

Is it possible for a man with low 96s temperature to still have a good head of hair? To a reasonable extent yes. But being hypothyroid makes you less resilient to any stress. For instance I was hypothyroid as a kid and teenager. But my endogenous hormones and low-stress environment probably protected me from the deleterious effects of stress on my hair. When my environment changed for the worse in my early 20s, hair suffered instantly.

In a similar way, hypothyroidism is rampant among women, but they are partially protected by their menstrual cycle, and the exposure to large endogenous amounts of progesterone (and estrogen) cyclically.

So I suspect the men with the most radiant hair will always be the guys with great thyroid function. After all the role of thyroid hormones in glucose and hair follicle metabolism is indisputable.

i am not denying any of this. But idk why you think I do not relate baldness with a certain physiological state, because I do. I also relate having perfect hair past the age of like 35 to a certain physiological state to all but very few men, and that state looks like low androgens, high estrogen to me. This is still a problem for bald guys, but seemingly to a lesser degree. The higher the age, the more obvious the difference. Picard, sean connory, ben kingsley, my grandpas and so on and so on. At a certain age I even associate baldness with virility. When are my 80+ grandpas who started balding in their 20s, look early 60s, play high division senior sports in one case or are generally extremely healthy in the other finally going to crash because of their atrophied adrenals?
I say this based on observation of body compositions and to a lesser extent facial compositions and also based on family observations. I would evaluate to be my fathers and mothers family sides to be bottom 10% in hair and top 10% in health based on longevity, looks outside of hair and life achievements (professionally, family, happiness). As you can imagine this does not really add up to what is preached here.

 

[mrchibbs]

Nobody preaches anything.

I disagree fundamentally with your view that low androgens and high estrogen is a characteristic of men with hair.
And I think hair is a sign of excellent health, but moreover a sign of high metabolism. One can be healthy without hair, but never like someone with hair. Because it’s not about the hair, but rather the relative deficiency or disturbance which led to the hair loss in the first place.

 

[brix]

The last few weeks I have barely lost any hair. Maybe a few a day. The last few days I have noticed I have started shedding a tad more and they are all way shorter than my hair length. Looks like all new growth is coming out first. Diet and supplements have gone unchanged so not sure what is causing it.

 

[mrchibbs]

The last few weeks I have barely lost any hair. Maybe a few a day. The last few days I have noticed I have started shedding a tad more and they are all way shorter than my hair length. Looks like all new growth is coming out first. Diet and supplements have gone unchanged so not sure what is causing it.

Summer is what happened

 

[brix]

Summer is what happened

Wouldn’t summer weather be beneficial? More sun, warmer body temp, etc

 

[Zigzag]

Wouldn’t summer weather be beneficial? More sun, warmer body temp, etc

That's what he meant.

Does anyone use an electric dermaneedling tool? I wanted to order Derminator 2, but the autistic company behind it won't ship it to certain countries. There's also a Dr. Pen. (the most expensive version in this case) but I'm not sure about microtearing.

 

[Ableton]

Yeah I have a derminator 2
I would sell it to you but you would still have to get needles from that company I guess

 

[Zigzag]

Yeah I have a derminator 2
I would sell it to you but you would still have to get needles from that company I guess

yeah unfortunately, cartridges are needed...
Did you stop using it btw?

 

[Ableton]

yeah unfortunately, cartridges are needed...
Did you stop using it btw?

Yeah, didn’t see results
It’s kinda nice for the face though

 

[JKX]

Great response, thank you. A lot of this makes great sense to me and also to my personal story.
Here is one further question: do nw0 men with wide hips, breasts or generally feminine body fat storage not have high tissue E? Why are their adrenals not responding to it the way mine do?
I’m excluding dysmorphic men with great hair and body compositions from this, who are clearly superior in health, but very rare at a certain age these days.
I am bringing this up because men with hair are often portrayed as having clearly better health here, when most of the time I am seeing them, I think some androgens would do them good. Lets be honest, most guys past 35 look like ***t these days, even if they have hair. Super estrogenic.
I am not convinced the majority of men with hair do not have similar estrogen/thyroid problems and I am not convinced an adrenal response to it including hair loss is a bad thing from an evolutionary standpoint. I think most men with hair have the same problems without the response

Again, tricky to answer! Some more out loud thoughts... an individual, as you describe (full head of hair, high E) is unlikley to be stressing their body through over-exercise to maintain good muscle mass and burn fat.

I still believe that optimal thyroid function is lacking, its just that their adrenals arent being overtaxed with the increased stress from physical activity. Consequently, it's likley that their adrenals are compensating adequately for the lack of thyroid at this particular stage of their lives. The fat storage in their type of case is most likley protective. Storing away PUFA and estrogen to reduce the immediate threat to the organism. How long can they buffer the stress? I think that just goes back to the numerous factors that affect the stress history of a person. Short term, low level, long term, acute... its super complex and unfortunately not everybody is born equal in this respect.

 

[Ableton]

Again, tricky to answer! Some more out loud thoughts... an individual, as you describe (full head of hair, high E) is unlikley to be stressing their body through over-exercise to maintain good muscle mass and burn fat.

I still believe that optimal thyroid function is lacking, its just that their adrenals arent being overtaxed with the increased stress from physical activity. Consequently, it's likley that their adrenals are compensating adequately for the lack of thyroid at this particular stage of their lives. The fat storage in their type of case is most likley protective. Storing away PUFA and estrogen to reduce the immediate threat to the organism. How long can they buffer the stress? I think that just goes back to the numerous factors that affect the stress history of a person. Short term, low level, long term, acute... its super complex and unfortunately not everybody is born equal in this respect.

storing away fat is not protective if you need to hunt and gather so your offspring survives. So my evolutionary point still stands.
As long as lebron keeps dunking from the freethrow line in his late 30s while 300lbs nw0 guys have their 5th portion of nuggets at mcdonalds, I think it’s a fair assessment to not see hair as an ultimate health indicator. But we are all free to have our own definitions of health I guess

 

[mrchibbs]

storing away fat is not protective if you need to hunt and gather so your offspring survives. So my evolutionary point still stands.
As long as lebron keeps dunking from the freethrow line in his late 30s while 300lbs nw0 guys have their 5th portion of nuggets at mcdonalds, I think it’s a fair assessment to not see hair as an ultimate health indicator. But we are all free to have our own definitions of health I guess

Except that there is no indication Lebron is healthier than an average dude. He's fitter, but the amount of stress he's put his body under is incredible. In fact I'd argue professional athletes tend to collapse quickly healthwise after their career.

 

[Ableton]

Except that there is no indication Lebron is healthier than an average dude. He's fitter, but the amount of stress he's put his body under is incredible. In fact I'd argue professional athletes tend to collapse quickly healthwise after their career.

I disagree as you can imagine.

i think what we can agree on is that lbj passes on his genes/ and or physiological state or whatever. Fit dudes tend to do that, even more so in not so recent human history.

so what perspective does this give us on mpb?

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Has this guide been covered on here?

~ULTIMATE Hair Regrowth Protocol (GTFIH For AWESOME Hair Gains)(INDEPTH)(PICS)(SRS)~
Misc.

 

[Ableton]

I have seen it before. It’s close to elephantos but it obviously does not reliably work

 

[success23]

I had a nasty shoulder injury and i applied a joint "ice" gel on my left shoulder. HAIR GROWTH EXPLODED there. I can show pictures if u want.
The gel contains: aqua, alcohol, pr.glycerol, peg-40 castor oil, mentha leaf oil, menthol, camphor, limonene, sodium carbomer and CI 42090.

There were studies posted here shwoing that mint is great for hair growth.

 

[GenericName86]

I have seen it before. It’s close to elephantos but it obviously does not reliably work

Yeah I remember reading that thread years ago then reading elephantos and noticing similarities. Speaking of which, did he ever say why boron was apart of it?

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

I had a nasty shoulder injury and i applied a joint "ice" gel on my left shoulder. HAIR GROWTH EXPLODED there. I can show pictures if u want.
The gel contains: aqua, alcohol, pr.glycerol, peg-40 castor oil, mentha leaf oil, menthol, camphor, limonene, sodium carbomer and CI 42090.

There were studies posted here shwoing that mint is great for hair growth.

Body hair and scalp hair and is a different animal. That’s why studies with mice where some substance makes their fur grow (or stop for that matter) are pretty much useless for human male pattern baldness which we try to solve. And it’s really common to se increased body hair in mpb, especially on chest, back, shoulders.