New Theory On Hairloss From Vitamin K2 MK4

BehcetsBoy

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Dec 28, 2019
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I am noticing some hairloss after having taken K2 MK4 for the past year and it's dose dependent meaning higher K2 doses cause me greater hair loss.

I recently had a blood test and everything came up normal except I have a high hemoglobin count meaning I have "thick" blood.

I am starting to think that the hair loss is caused by tiny blood clots that clog up the blood flow to those hair follicles.

I am definitely feeling the symptoms of having really thick blood, specifically headaches, blurred vision, memory loss and confusion immediately after taking the K2.

These symptoms get a bit better after taking supposed natural blood thinners like vitamin e and omega 3 from fish/eggs. I also feel better after taking the complimentary vitamins A and D3.

It would make sense since your body is making small clots that aren't big enough to block an artery or vein to give you a stroke, but enough that as they travel throughout the body they get lodged in the small vessels in the head going to the hair follicles.
 

sunraiser

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I am noticing some hairloss after having taken K2 MK4 for the past year and it's dose dependent meaning higher K2 doses cause me greater hair loss.

I recently had a blood test and everything came up normal except I have a high hemoglobin count meaning I have "thick" blood.

I am starting to think that the hair loss is caused by tiny blood clots that clog up the blood flow to those hair follicles.

I am definitely feeling the symptoms of having really thick blood, specifically headaches, blurred vision, memory loss and confusion immediately after taking the K2.

These symptoms get a bit better after taking supposed natural blood thinners like vitamin e and omega 3 from fish/eggs. I also feel better after taking the complimentary vitamins A and D3.

It would make sense since your body is making small clots that aren't big enough to block an artery or vein to give you a stroke, but enough that as they travel throughout the body they get lodged in the small vessels in the head going to the hair follicles.

You need to take K1 with K2 if you don't want "thick blood". You could just take a physiological k2 dose (1mg a week) and let your body adapt between doses or you could take life extension k1/2 combo or a similar product (i think vitacost do one).

I don't recommend taking those products every day either, but that's just my experience.

K2 alone gives me a horrible "thick blood" feeling - it's pretty uncanny how palpable it is. I could kind of tell just by feeling. Life Extension doesn't have this effect.
 

Mossy

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You need to take K1 with K2 if you don't want "thick blood". You could just take a physiological k2 dose (1mg a week) and let your body adapt between doses or you could take life extension k1/2 combo or a similar product (i think vitacost do one).

I don't recommend taking those products every day either, but that's just my experience.

K2 alone gives me a horrible "thick blood" feeling - it's pretty uncanny how palpable it is. I could kind of tell just by feeling. Life Extension doesn't have this effect.
Interesting. I too get the “thick blood” feeling. I was not aware that k1 would remedy this. I will try this as finances and time allow.
 

Kingpinguin

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it does not work like that. Just as aspirin actually does not make your blood thinner even though its called a blood thinner. It only stops/prevent couagulation of the blood reducing its clotting ability. Vitamin K2 can maybe in excess doses increase blood clotting but generally its K1 that works best for that purpose. K2 effect is generally on bone osteoblast and clasts. Cant see any reason why K2 would increase hemoglobin production. Totally unrelated to me. Would investigate other reasons. Could be smoking that causes increase hemoglobin because of reduced oxygen uptake from lungs. There’s other more serious reasons why you would get above reference range hemoglobin. I would speak with my doctor
If I was you. Could be worth investigating.
 

Waynish

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Layman's explanation of K2 "keeping the calcium in the bones" omits what is happening to calcified tissues when K2 is high. And the scalp of balding men can qualify as a calcified tissue. Any women here lose hair from K2?
 

GreekDemiGod

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There's another theory I remember and that is how Kuinone can powerfully lower blood sugar if taken on empty stomach, and cause strong cortisol spikes, which repeateadly do damage to the hair.
I also believe increased caloric demans has to be taken into account.
 

Mossy

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it does not work like that. Just as aspirin actually does not make your blood thinner even though its called a blood thinner. It only stops/prevent couagulation of the blood reducing its clotting ability. Vitamin K2 can maybe in excess doses increase blood clotting but generally its K1 that works best for that purpose. K2 effect is generally on bone osteoblast and clasts. Cant see any reason why K2 would increase hemoglobin production. Totally unrelated to me. Would investigate other reasons. Could be smoking that causes increase hemoglobin because of reduced oxygen uptake from lungs. There’s other more serious reasons why you would get above reference range hemoglobin. I would speak with my doctor
If I was you. Could be worth investigating.
Whatever the technical and actual process that is taking place, I’m not certain, but the “thick blood” effect happens every time I take K2, and I’ve never taken K1. Maybe @Waynish is accurate with the calcium perspective.
 

berk

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I am definitely feeling the symptoms of having really thick blood, specifically headaches, blurred vision, memory loss and confusion immediately after taking the K2.
.

Only look at these symptoms is not wise, lot of other issues cause the same symptoms.
And there is something like a placebo effect. with other words, big change you imagining things.

How can you tell (beside of looking at the symptoms) that you have thin/thick blood?
Can you see a different between thick/thin blood if you stick a needle in your finger?
 

Pistachio

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I've been wondering whether the k2 hairloss (be it MPB or simply shedding) is related to the de-calcification process in the scalp.

In theory, it seems that the hairloss would decrease as the scalp is decalcified, but the OP has said he was on k2 for a year. You would think that would be enough time to significantly decalcify the scalp. So, why is he still experiencing hair loss?

Vitamin K2 is pro-androgen, so I would say that that is the main culprit for those experiencing shedding and loss while using.
 
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Vitamin K2 is pro-androgen, so I would say that that is the main culprit for those experiencing shedding and loss while using.

Yes but don't let anyone hear you...

Anything that increases androgens or decreases estrogen will fvck up your hair if you aren't making enough epi-testosterone in your follicles. We are missing a natural anti-androgen which all full-headed people have much more of in their hair follicles, and this balances out the pro and anti-androgenic effect in the dermal papilla.

People here get triggered by statements such as "DHT causes hair loss" which by itself is technically a false statement since DHT in itself obviously does NOT cause hair loss in people who are not genetically sensitive to androgens have normal amounts of epi-testosterone to balance out the DHT.

Perhaps the idea that DHT contributes to hair loss becomes easier to accept if it is looked at as an example of localized hormonal imbalance where there is too much DHT & T relative to their anti-androgenic isomers (epi-T and epi-DHT), and this hormonal imbalance destroys the tissues in question by sending them into apoptosis.

The ratio of T:ET in serum sits at about 1, in healthy follicles at 10:1, but the ratio in balding follicles is up to 40:1, a clear sign of disregulation. Technically any hormone, even the 'good ones', if you bump them so far out of balance with other hormones in the cell can cause havoc. This does not mean that T & DHT are 'bad', what's bad is the lack of countermolecules which need to be produced locally and for some reason aren't. This is why hair loss is hard to treat - because you have to negate the effects of two very powerful hormones, and make up for a serious lack of another. It's why ***t like baking soda and ACV and scalp massage and other nonsense do not work.

Just like you're not going to make up for lack of T4 & T3 thyroid hormones by downing spoonfuls of sugar or other downstream components needed for metabolism - the effects of those hormones are too broad-spectrum and involved to be able to trivialize like that. It is the same with hair loss.
 

Pistachio

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Yes but don't let anyone hear you...

Anything that increases androgens or decreases estrogen will fvck up your hair if you aren't making enough epi-testosterone in your follicles. We are missing a natural anti-androgen which all full-headed people have much more of in their hair follicles, and this balances out the pro and anti-androgenic effect in the dermal papilla.

People here get triggered by statements such as "DHT causes hair loss" which by itself is technically a false statement since DHT in itself obviously does NOT cause hair loss in people who are not genetically sensitive to androgens have normal amounts of epi-testosterone to balance out the DHT.

Perhaps the idea that DHT contributes to hair loss becomes easier to accept if it is looked at as an example of localized hormonal imbalance where there is too much DHT & T relative to their anti-androgenic isomers (epi-T and epi-DHT), and this hormonal imbalance destroys the tissues in question by sending them into apoptosis.

The ratio of T:ET in serum sits at about 1, in healthy follicles at 10:1, but the ratio in balding follicles is up to 40:1, a clear sign of disregulation. Technically any hormone, even the 'good ones', if you bump them so far out of balance with other hormones in the cell can cause havoc. This does not mean that T & DHT are 'bad', what's bad is the lack of countermolecules which need to be produced locally and for some reason aren't. This is why hair loss is hard to treat - because you have to negate the effects of two very powerful hormones, and make up for a serious lack of another. It's why ***t like baking soda and ACV and scalp massage and other nonsense do not work.

Just like you're not going to make up for lack of T4 & T3 thyroid hormones by downing spoonfuls of sugar or other downstream components needed for metabolism - the effects of those hormones are too broad-spectrum and involved to be able to trivialize like that. It is the same with hair loss.

I think a simple, layman's way of looking at DHT's involvement in hairloss is misappropriation. The DHT, present in both the balding and non-balding, is managed differently in the two respective subjects.

What exactly is "epi"? Never heard of this before.
 

Waynish

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I've been wondering whether the k2 hairloss (be it MPB or simply shedding) is related to the de-calcification process in the scalp.

In theory, it seems that the hairloss would decrease as the scalp is decalcified, but the OP has said he was on k2 for a year. You would think that would be enough time to significantly decalcify the scalp. So, why is he still experiencing hair loss?

Vitamin K2 is pro-androgen, so I would say that that is the main culprit for those experiencing shedding and loss while using.

Sounds right. People should get into the experience of hair loss... There is heat, inflammation, dandruff, etc. "Calcification" is general & slow... Hair loss clearly happens in bursts to people.
 

tallglass13

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Yes but don't let anyone hear you...

Anything that increases androgens or decreases estrogen will fvck up your hair if you aren't making enough epi-testosterone in your follicles. We are missing a natural anti-androgen which all full-headed people have much more of in their hair follicles, and this balances out the pro and anti-androgenic effect in the dermal papilla.

People here get triggered by statements such as "DHT causes hair loss" which by itself is technically a false statement since DHT in itself obviously does NOT cause hair loss in people who are not genetically sensitive to androgens have normal amounts of epi-testosterone to balance out the DHT.

Perhaps the idea that DHT contributes to hair loss becomes easier to accept if it is looked at as an example of localized hormonal imbalance where there is too much DHT & T relative to their anti-androgenic isomers (epi-T and epi-DHT), and this hormonal imbalance destroys the tissues in question by sending them into apoptosis.

The ratio of T:ET in serum sits at about 1, in healthy follicles at 10:1, but the ratio in balding follicles is up to 40:1, a clear sign of disregulation. Technically any hormone, even the 'good ones', if you bump them so far out of balance with other hormones in the cell can cause havoc. This does not mean that T & DHT are 'bad', what's bad is the lack of countermolecules which need to be produced locally and for some reason aren't. This is why hair loss is hard to treat - because you have to negate the effects of two very powerful hormones, and make up for a serious lack of another. It's why ***t like baking soda and ACV and scalp massage and other nonsense do not work.

Just like you're not going to make up for lack of T4 & T3 thyroid hormones by downing spoonfuls of sugar or other downstream components needed for metabolism - the effects of those hormones are too broad-spectrum and involved to be able to trivialize like that. It is the same with hair loss.
I think this theory needs to be explored. I personally have never heard of this but after reading the medical journals that studied epi testosterone to testosterone ratio, including DHT. According to the studies the scientist s believe that older men have lower epi testosterone which is supposed to help oppose the high DHT in the scalp.
I found it quite intriguing that Ray Peat had never thought about neonatal baldness. Danny Roddy wrote his article from his own thoughts and from others, but it didn't have anything to do with Ray really. Maybe Ray hasn't thought of male pattern baldness as much as we think he has either. When Danny asked him about neonatal baldness Ray Peat said he never thought about it and did not know.
There's not a lot of research on how to increase epi testosterone, except it's used in sports to mask anabolic steroids. It doesn't look like an easy chemical to get either. If anyone has any connections please let me know I'd be very interested.
 

Pistachio

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Sounds right. People should get into the experience of hair loss... There is heat, inflammation, dandruff, etc. "Calcification" is general & slow... Hair loss clearly happens in bursts to people.

What do you mean by happens in bursts?
 

Waynish

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What do you mean by happens in bursts?
I mean that people go through periods of rapid hair loss. And during that time there is usually some very obvious stuff going on in the scalp. Swelling, itching, extra sebum, dandruff... And you can see where the hair is thinner / thinnest fastest is where more of that is happening in the scalp.
 

GreekDemiGod

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