Question: does natural progesterone use in males suppress gonadal (testicular) and / or adrenal production? (Plus, yet another hair loss thread)

[BigShoes]

Introduction / Background: 30 Y.O. Male - I am experimenting with the topical application of vitamin K2 and natural progesterone on the neck / temples (carotid artery), in an attempt to halt and reverse some minor (yet very distressing) hair loss.

Applications:
(1) Vitamin K2 MK-4 (Idealabs Kuinone) - 1-2 drops on both sides, twice per day ---> 4-8 drops total, approximately 8mg - 16mg of topical K2 per day applied topically.
(2) Progesterone (USP from Wild Yams) - c. 2.5mg per side, once per day ---> approximately 5mg total per day applied topically.

Observations: I have been conducting this experiment for just 1 week (as of this post). It may be placebo, but I have noticed an *instant* reduction in hair fall / hair shedding. Obviously, one week is no where near enough time to see any regrowth, but this observation was an interesting start.

My Question To You All:

Will the use of exogenous progesterone suppress the body's natural production of progesterone in the testicles and / or adrenals?

If so, is the suppression potentially permanent?

I am concerned that natural production may be suppressed permanently, in a similar way to which testosterone production can be permanently suppressed through the use of androgenic-anabolic steroids / testosterone replacement therapy (which I am not taking, and have never taken).

Apologies if this has been asked a million times - I could not find a specific thread title around this topic.

Thanks in advance for any input - any other tips are also welcome...

Pics (all taken within 48 hours of each other):

Additional Stuff:

Diet:
Coming from c. 2 years of pretty strict carnivore (I know, not great). For the past 6 months or so, diet has consisted of:
- Beef (muscle, organs, fat, gelatin)
- Juice (orange and some apple)
- Raw Honey
- Potatoes
- c. 120g Protein (40g of which is gelatin), c. 240g carbs (80% sugar, 20% starch), c. 120g Fat (Saturated Animal (Beef) Fat - possibly a little high, but I'm coming from Zero Carb Carnivore).

Supps:
- ADEK (Estroban) - 4 drops per day (half dose)
- B Complex
- Calcium (Calcium Carbonate) - minimum to match total dietary phosphorus 1:1, max 2:1 Ca:P - generally c. 1g - 1.5g calcium per day
- Magnesium Salt Baths

Misc:
- Sleep c. 7-8 hours - often going to bed too late though
- Experimenting w. Red Light / Near Infrared Light
- Attempting Semen Retention - often failing
- Regular Resistance Training for approx. 13 years. Since March 2020, I have been doing Light Weights, Higher Reps / Bodyweight Training - nothing too strenuous, but do go to "failure".
- Very Low Intensity Cardio (walking only - just getting outside really).
- High stress job, relatively few friends / social interactions, very hard on myself / perfectionist mindset.

 

[abnerdoubleday]

I'm curious about this too, but considering the fact that you can't find it mentioned anywhere online, at least with a cursory search, I doubt it is anywhere near as severe as permanent production loss.

 

[conrad0602]

I don't think a reduction in androgens would be permanent. It would only be whilst the levels of progesterone where high enough to antagonise them. Once the levels of progesterone dropped I think the androgens would be able to rise back to baseline. Ray recommends a little dhea to counter the anti androgen effect of progesterone.

 

[ecstatichamster]

it does not. It helps clear estrogen and makes testosterone more dominant. Especially with a small amount of DHEA.

 

[BigShoes]

Thanks for the responses. Does anyone have any links to studies etc. just out of interest?

And just to clarify @conrad0602 - I am not concerned RE: a reduction in androgens from taking progesterone. I am concerned that taking progesterone will suppress (temporarily or permanently) the body's production of its own progesterone endogenously. So for example:

- Human Male produces c. 1.5mg - 3mg of Progesterone per day in the testes / adrenals
- Human Male then commences supplementation with exogenous progesterone e.g. 5mg - 10mg per day from creams / progest-E
- My question from this is two-fold:
(1) Does this exogenous progesterone suppress the testes / adrenal production of progesterone - i.e. the body senses that it has enough, and therefore halts production?
(2) If so, is there a risk that this progesterone suppression could be permanent (as occurs with testosterone suppression from TRT)?

- And I suppose a third bonus question: might there be any other permanent negative sides?

@abnerdoubleday - I am leaning towards the same view. However, I would not be surprised if it just hasn't been studied yet. It's very uncommon to hear males talking about supplemental / exogenous progesterone use outside of the Peat sphere (which is quite "on the fringe", all things considered).

 

[conrad0602]

Thanks for the responses. Does anyone have any links to studies etc. just out of interest?

And just to clarify @conrad0602 - I am not concerned RE: a reduction in androgens from taking progesterone. I am concerned that taking progesterone will suppress (temporarily or permanently) the body's production of its own progesterone endogenously. So for example:

- Human Male produces c. 1.5mg - 3mg of Progesterone per day in the testes / adrenals
- Human Male then commences supplementation with exogenous progesterone e.g. 5mg - 10mg per day from creams / progest-E
- My question from this is two-fold:
(1) Does this exogenous progesterone suppress the testes / adrenal production of progesterone - i.e. the body senses that it has enough, and therefore halts production?
(2) If so, is there a risk that this progesterone suppression could be permanent (as occurs with testosterone suppression from TRT)?

- And I suppose a third bonus question: might there be any other permanent negative sides?

@abnerdoubleday - I am leaning towards the same view. However, I would not be surprised if it just hasn't been studied yet. It's very uncommon to hear males talking about supplemental / exogenous progesterone use outside of the Peat sphere (which is quite "on the fringe", all things considered).

Ah my bad. I think it's ability to antagonise estrogen could lead to more favourable natural ratio between the two that continues after stopping supplementation. Not aware of any studies reflecting this but after using it for a period of time i have a lot less high estrogen symptoms that continued after stopping the progesterone which could suggest improved progesterone levels and or a better ratio.

 

[Rasaari]

I think if you lack the other protective hormones and you increase exogenous progesterone your body would then endogenously be able to produce the others. Other than that, it shouldn't suppress your own production after you discontinue. However ray thinks one should cycle 2 weeks on/2 weeks off so that the liver doesn't start to detox the new normal elevated levels of progesterone. I think for a male 5-15mg is a very good therapeutic dose. Like conrad said it could lead to better test/dht ratio over estrogen, however larger doses can antagonize the androgen receptors. I used a few drops of georgis cortinon daily before bed and it had great benefits for me, and Im only 22.

 

[BigShoes]

I think if you lack the other protective hormones and you increase exogenous progesterone your body would then endogenously be able to produce the others. Other than that, it shouldn't suppress your own production after you discontinue. However ray thinks one should cycle 2 weeks on/2 weeks off so that the liver doesn't start to detox the new normal elevated levels of progesterone. I think for a male 5-15mg is a very good therapeutic dose. Like conrad said it could lead to better test/dht ratio over estrogen, however larger doses can antagonize the androgen receptors. I used a few drops of georgis cortinon daily before bed and it had great benefits for me, and Im only 22.

Thanks @Rasaari for the response. Excellent, I've settled on a dose of 5mg-10mg per day.

Do you know why TRT often permanently suppresses gonadal production of testosterone, but progesterone use would not permanently suppress gonadal production of progesterone? I must admit, I don't fully understand the mechanism of either pathway.

 

[Logan-]

Do you know why TRT often permanently suppresses gonadal production of testosterone, but progesterone use would not permanently suppress gonadal production of progesterone?

@haidut

 

[rothko]

Hey, what do you think of lidocaine on the temporal artery ? It has vasodilating properties.

 

[Rasaari]

Thanks @Rasaari for the response. Excellent, I've settled on a dose of 5mg-10mg per day.

Do you know why TRT often permanently suppresses gonadal production of testosterone, but progesterone use would not permanently suppress gonadal production of progesterone? I must admit, I don't fully understand the mechanism of either pathway.

Sure.
With TRT the main reason for suppression is estrogen. Estrogen causes the HPTA-axis to downregulate production of LH and FSH. These stimulate the testicles to produce testosterone. If the testicles don't get enough stimulation, they downsize. Bodybuilders, after a cycle usually take HCG (stimulates testicles) and a SERM (tamoxifen, raloxifene, clomiphene). These SERMs act differently in different places, but in this context they antagonize estrogen in the pituitary. This causes the body to produce FSH and LH to stimulate the testies leydig cells. These SERMs are also used in TRT and at infertility clinics. Sometimes a person who might need TRT could jumpstart their natural production with a SERM. Some endocrinologists in america try this approach before starting possible lifelong therapy. However SERMs are quite toxic and an AI (exemestane), pregnenolone, progesterone and all the peaty stuff would be far safer for antagonizing estrogen. Many people manage to up their natural test production with just exemestane. Not only does it reduce wasting test to estrogen but also aid in the production.

So in short both the HPTA-axis is not stimulating testicles because there's already enough estrogen, and because of no stimulation the testicles shrink. So keeping the testicles stimulated with low dose HCG while on TRT/cycle, say 250iu/week would keep them alive or/adding pregnenolone/dhea. Or if you want to come off TRT you would need to run HCG for a while for the testicles to come back to normal size. Testosterone isn't the only hormone produced by the leydig cells but also androstenedione and DHEA, so keeping the testies alive during TRT or supplementing preg+dhea would be advisable. Progesterone is produced in the testies as a byproduct so keeping the testies alive is very important. In higher doses progesterone inhibits leydig cell production of test but I have not seen it suppressing itself.

The testosterone itself suppresses the pituitary also, but to a much lesser extent, and usually Test is cleared pretty easily. With some steroids, like the nandrolone derivatives, especially Deca, trenbolone, trestolone suppress the HPTA long and hard. So much so that researchers are trying to make a birth control out of trestolone.

A bit of a ramble yes, but my point is that TRT doesn't cause permanent shutdown, keeping the testies alive is crucial and progesterone doesn't suppress itself or cause "shutdown".

 

[tankasnowgod]

(2) Progesterone (USP from Wild Yams) - c. 2.5mg per side, once per day ---> approximately 5mg total per day applied topically.

Progesterone can suppress testosterone, in higher doses, but the effect is temporary.

I have heard Peat recommend 5mg a day for men, and at this dose topically, you should have no such suppression issues.

 

[Logan-]

Progesterone can suppress testosterone, in higher doses, but the effect is temporary.

I have heard Peat recommend 5mg a day for men, and at this dose topically, you should have no such suppression issues.

Do you mean 5 mg of transdermal progesterone/day for men?

 

[BigShoes]

Thanks @Rasaari - this has given me a lot to read up on.

@tankasnowgod - thanks for the response. Just to clarify:

I am not concerned RE: the testosterone / androgen suppression from progesterone use, since I know this is temporary.

My question was: will the use of exogenous progesterone suppress the testicular or adrenal production of their own progesterone (i.e. natural progesterone production in the body)? And if so, will this be temporary or potentially permanent?

I know that testosterone suppression can be permanent / semi-permanent if exogenous TRT is administered (it often becomes a lifelong commitment) - so I was wondering if the same might occur with progesterone. I.e. if exogenous progesterone is administered, will this suppress or disrupt the testicles' / adrenals' ability to produce their own natural progesterone? If I am understanding Rasaari's post correctly, it appears that this is unlikely to occur.

Apologies, I have a lot of waffle in the original post that might have made this unclear.

 

[BigShoes]

Hey, what do you think of lidocaine on the temporal artery ? It has vasodilating properties.

Hi rothko,

I haven't read into this properly yet but it certainly looks interesting! Thanks for the heads up - I will check it out.

At present, I am throwing everything I can at the problem (within reason) to try and reverse calcification, improve circulation and blood flow, improve hormone profile, and get "more nutrients" to the hair follicles (or just the extremities in general). The only other things not discussed in the original post that I may also experiment with is Cypro, Aspirin and Caffeine, as have all been discussed before.

I am relatively new to the forum and it's likely that many other members have tried these methods a million times over, but I haven't seen many definitive "before and after" photos. I'll see if I can take some slightly better "before" photos that really show the extent the problem, and then take some "afters" in about 6 months to 1 years time. Succeed or fail, I will make a new post / thread to update progress.

 

[Logan-]

Prevention of Hair Loss in Men

What are the most important things to do (and not to do) to prevent hair loss in men?

raypeatforum.com

RP has suggested local DHEA for hair loss, you may want to research that.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I know that testosterone suppression can be permanent / semi-permanent if exogenous TRT is administered (it often becomes a lifelong commitment) - so I was wondering if the same might occur with progesterone. I.e. if exogenous progesterone is administered, will this suppress or disrupt the testicles' / adrenals' ability to produce their own natural progesterone? If I am understanding Rasaari's post correctly, it appears that this is unlikely to occur.

Highly doubtful. There usually isn't suppression from the "intermediate" hormones like progesterone. Plus, if using topically on your head, it likely wouldn't even get down to the testicles or adrenals.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Do you mean 5 mg of transdermal progesterone/day for men?

I only remember 5mg. I don't think Peat suggested a route of administration. This was from one of the Roddy/Haidut interview podcasts.

 

[Explorer]

Why are you attempting semen retention?

 

[BigShoes]

Why are you attempting semen retention?

My thinking is that negative hormonal profiles associated with pattern hair loss are:

1) elevated estrogen / estradiol -> Solution: general health and dietary improvements, plus avoiding plastics / detergents and endocrine disruptors, progesterone use.
2) elevated serotonin -> Solution: promote gut health (avoid food sensitivities) and possibly some cypro use etc.
3) elevated prolactin -> Solution: possibly lisuride, and semen retention**
4) elevated cortisol / adrenalin -> Solution: lifestyle improvements / stress management, carbohydrate intake
5) elevated parathyroid hormone -> Solution: Ca:P Ratio - Calcium supplementation and sensibly reducing muscle meat intake to limit phosphorus

** In short, male orgasm is associated with elevations in prolactin shortly afterwards. These prolactin levels are supposed to return to base-line within a few hours to one day. However, if the male is constantly "spilling his seed" on a daily basis, then it is likely that prolactin will remain elevated above the natural baseline indefinitely - or at least, be constantly spiking. This may be especially true with masturbation - which *apparently* has slightly worse impacts on hormonal profiles compared to sex with a partner, due to the absence of bonding hormones that are released w. a partner.

In addition to hair loss, high prolactin has been associated with a number of other conditions such as gynecomastia, low energy, low mood etc.

Whether this strategy will help or not, I cannot say. But I think that quitting masturbation and viewing sex as an activity to produce children, rather than just for physical pleasure, may be beneficial for me in general.