Surrogates For Thyroid Hormone

[dd99]

That's brilliant. Thanks for the magnesium info, haidut. Did you supplement 400mg a day, regardless of how much magnesium you got from foods? Peat apparently thinks it's the total amount of alkaline minerals we get each day and not the ratios that matter, but would it not be wise in your opinion to supplement more than 400mg magnesium if I am ingesting around 2g calcium a day from foods?

 

[Suikerbuik]

I see, it can indeed inhibit fatty acid oxidation, but reye syndrome patients have a different salicylic acid metabolism. Another reason why aspirin doesn't fit me -joke . But this study points towards a dose that seems to be too low to accumulate in pheriperal tissue. So if it happens it only happens in liver tissue I think. And also note that it might even enhance your fatty acid oxidation at those lower doses.

A reference from a referenced article (8).

Our studies have also shown that fibroblasts from RS
patients were significantly more sensitive to inhibition of
â oxidation by salicylate than are control cells. The diVerences
were demonstrable at concentrations well within the
therapeutic range of plasma salicylate (see above). In control
cells, 1 mM salicylate significantly stimulated palmitate
oxidation, an eVect quite opposite to that noted in RS cells,
higher concentrations caused increasing inhibition in each
group of cells.22 Stimulatory then inhibitory eVects of salicylate
on â oxidation were reported at similar concentrations
in rat liver slices.23 Thus stimulatory and inhibitory
eVects of salicylate were independent; only the latter was
due to blocking of LCHAD activity.

 

[honeybee]

@ haidut "The doctor said he is certain I am taking off-label drug of some sorts but then agreed that magnesium would have that effect after seeing the studies. So now, before prescribing a drug to his patients he sends me an email asking "hey, do you know of a natural substance that has been shown in a study to work like drug X" "


Awesome :)

 

[RayOfLight]

@ haidut - Thanks for all your input, I have learned a lot from your ideas!

Have you changed from the original protocol posted in favor of just K2 and caffeine tabs (for better overall liver / body fat removal)?

I found your statement fascinating that even if you are taking NDT but the liver is burdened, then this may not be the solution. It's planted a seed that this could be my case as I have been taking NDT for over a year, been eating well and still can't hold a decent temperature / pulse all day.

I think it was Such Saturation that posted about keeping warm with extra clothing with frequent doses of thyroid to bring up temps and then try hold them there. That is the only way I can stay warm through the day and it is rather tiring sitting at my desk in summer clothed like an Eskimo.

Perhaps It could be that some of us who try hard at this but are not quite there yet, are missing the benefits of healthy liver functions?

Also wanted to ask if you think low sunlight is ok if one uses a good daily D3 supplement?

 

[tara]

Also wanted to ask if you think low sunlight is ok if one uses a good daily D3 supplement?

I'm not Haidut, but I'm going to comment just on this bit. Vitamin D supplement may mitigate against lack of UV from sunlight.
We also need the red end of the spectrum (orange through near infra-red) to restore the cytochrome oxidase enzyme, which is a crucial link in mitochondrial energy production. If you can't get enough sunlight, lots of skin exposure to artificial red light can help. Peat has recommended strong incandescents as a good source - they emit more in the red end than the blue - and quite a few people here use and have recommended this method.

 

[RayOfLight]

Also wanted to ask if you think low sunlight is ok if one uses a good daily D3 supplement?

I'm not Haidut, but I'm going to comment just on this bit. Vitamin D supplement may mitigate against lack of UV from sunlight.
We also need the red end of the spectrum (orange through near infra-red) to restore the cytochrome oxidase enzyme, which is a crucial link in mitochondrial energy production. If you can't get enough sunlight, lots of skin exposure to artificial red light can help. Peat has recommended strong incandescents as a good source - they emit more in the red end than the blue - and quite a few people here use and have recommended this method.

Thanks for that! It's the only big thing I haven't got around to doing yet :) How much of a difference did red light make for you? Between the methlene blue and red light maybe I can turn purple and discover the fountain of health :)

 

[haidut]

@ haidut - Thanks for all your input, I have learned a lot from your ideas!

Have you changed from the original protocol posted in favor of just K2 and caffeine tabs (for better overall liver / body fat removal)?

I found your statement fascinating that even if you are taking NDT but the liver is burdened, then this may not be the solution. It's planted a seed that this could be my case as I have been taking NDT for over a year, been eating well and still can't hold a decent temperature / pulse all day.

I think it was Such Saturation that posted about keeping warm with extra clothing with frequent doses of thyroid to bring up temps and then try hold them there. That is the only way I can stay warm through the day and it is rather tiring sitting at my desk in summer clothed like an Eskimo.

Perhaps It could be that some of us who try hard at this but are not quite there yet, are missing the benefits of healthy liver functions?

Also wanted to ask if you think low sunlight is ok if one uses a good daily D3 supplement?

I still take K2 but not any more in such high doses. I use EstroBan, and usually take 2 doses of that so my total intake of K2 is about 5mg daily. Vitamin D3 is about 2,000 IU daily and vitamin A is 10,000 - 15,000 IU daily. Vitamin E is 200IU - 400 IU daily.
In the winter I sit under my 6 lamps carrying 500W incandescent bulbs each. They are pointed at the wall but when I an in that room I feel like the sun is beaming at me from all directions.
In the summer, I do try to get my sunlight direct but make sure I take caffeine and some niacinamide before going outside to roast.
I don't use much caffeine right now aside from what I get from 2-3 cups of coffee. I stopped feeling the effects of larger dosages (800mg+) so I took that to mean the liver has flushed its fat. If you trust lab results, my liver enzymes are at the bottom 10% of the range, which the doctor claims is freaky even if it was found in a teenager. I am not sure how good that is, but the general consensus is the lower the enzymes the better, so I'd take it.
Liver and insulin sensitivity go hand in hand, so a good way to test liver function would be to do the glucose challenge test that is often done at doctor's offices. If you score well then your liver is probably fine.

 

[cantstoppeating]

I would simply say "In some of your interviews you said that fat oxidation is best left to muscles at rest, since this is their preferred fuel. Wouldn't taking substances like niacinamide and aspirin interfere with the muscles' abillity to oxidize fat?"

I emailed Peat to ask him exactly that question; here's his response:

Aspirin increases oxygen consumption; although niacinamide can reduce excessive lipolysis, I don't know whether it would lower resting lipolysis.

 

[RayOfLight]

@ haidut - Much appreciated, will give this protocol a go together with Methylene Blue and see how it goes :)

 

[tara]

Thanks for that! It's the only big thing I haven't got around to doing yet :) How much of a difference did red light make for you? Between the methlene blue and red light maybe I can turn purple and discover the fountain of health :)

Hi. I haven't got a red light set up that I am happy about. Last winter I got a couple of strong halogens (500W) on a stand, and some days/evenings I'd sit with it shining on my bare my shoulders close enough to feel pleasantly warm (a little over a metre away). I always felt good for it while I was there, and I think the good effect lasted a while after. My undestandiing is that halogens do not emit as favourable a spectrum as incandescents, but still better than nothing (or fluorescents) in winter, and it's what I could find at the time in a practical configuration. Now that it's summer and I have been out in the sun a bit I'm noticing how much better energy I have.

 

[RayOfLight]

Thanks for that! It's the only big thing I haven't got around to doing yet :) How much of a difference did red light make for you? Between the methlene blue and red light maybe I can turn purple and discover the fountain of health :)

Hi. I haven't got a red light set up that I am happy about. Last winter I got a couple of strong halogens (500W) on a stand, and some days/evenings I'd sit with it shining on my bare my shoulders close enough to feel pleasantly warm (a little over a metre away). I always felt good for it while I was there, and I think the good effect lasted a while after. My undestandiing is that halogens do not emit as favourable a spectrum as incandescents, but still better than nothing (or fluorescents) in winter, and it's what I could find at the time in a practical configuration. Now that it's summer and I have been out in the sun a bit I'm noticing how much better energy I have.

Thanks Tara, the search continues.. Cheers

 

[haidut]

I would simply say "In some of your interviews you said that fat oxidation is best left to muscles at rest, since this is their preferred fuel. Wouldn't taking substances like niacinamide and aspirin interfere with the muscles' abillity to oxidize fat?"

I emailed Peat to ask him exactly that question; here's his response:

Aspirin increases oxygen consumption; although niacinamide can reduce excessive lipolysis, I don't know whether it would lower resting lipolysis.

OK, then niaciamide is something to be aware of when trying to lose weight. Also, while I agree with Peat that aspirin increases ogyxen consumption it actually directly blocks fat oxidation in addition to inhibiting lipolysis so it's something to keep in mind as well. That may be the reason why Peat says he only uses aspirin sporadically, sometimes taking 500mg daily and other times "just a little".

 

[cantstoppeating]

I would simply say "In some of your interviews you said that fat oxidation is best left to muscles at rest, since this is their preferred fuel. Wouldn't taking substances like niacinamide and aspirin interfere with the muscles' abillity to oxidize fat?"

I emailed Peat to ask him exactly that question; here's his response:

Aspirin increases oxygen consumption; although niacinamide can reduce excessive lipolysis, I don't know whether it would lower resting lipolysis.

OK, then niaciamide is something to be aware of when trying to lose weight. Also, while I agree with Peat that aspirin increases ogyxen consumption it actually directly blocks fat oxidation in addition to inhibiting lipolysis so it's something to keep in mind as well. That may be the reason why Peat says he only uses aspirin sporadically, sometimes taking 500mg daily and other times "just a little".

Since niacinamide and aspirin aid in glucose oxidation but can exacerbate existing fatty liver symptoms, it would be wise to focus on using caffeine (and perhaps T3) to relieve the liver (and other tissues) of its fat before using niacinamide and aspirin to maintain and improve glucose oxidation.

This doesn't solve the catch-22 as noted in one of your previous posts, but this route appears to be the lesser of two evils.

 

[haidut]

I would simply say "In some of your interviews you said that fat oxidation is best left to muscles at rest, since this is their preferred fuel. Wouldn't taking substances like niacinamide and aspirin interfere with the muscles' abillity to oxidize fat?"

I emailed Peat to ask him exactly that question; here's his response:

Aspirin increases oxygen consumption; although niacinamide can reduce excessive lipolysis, I don't know whether it would lower resting lipolysis.

OK, then niaciamide is something to be aware of when trying to lose weight. Also, while I agree with Peat that aspirin increases ogyxen consumption it actually directly blocks fat oxidation in addition to inhibiting lipolysis so it's something to keep in mind as well. That may be the reason why Peat says he only uses aspirin sporadically, sometimes taking 500mg daily and other times "just a little".

Since niacinamide and aspirin aid in glucose oxidation but can exacerbate existing fatty liver symptoms, it would be wise to focus on using caffeine (and perhaps T3) to relieve the liver (and other tissues) of its fat before using niacinamide and aspirin to maintain and improve glucose oxidation.

This doesn't solve the catch-22 as noted in one of your previous posts, but this route appears to be the lesser of two evils.

I don't think aspirin and niacinamide aid in glucose oxidation, I think aspirin simply increases metabolism by uncoupling mitochondria and niacinamide does something similar. So, with lower doses of aspirin you could be increasing metabolism and maybe keep burning fat. With higher doses you would be blocking fat oxidation. There is a human study showing curing type II diabates by using very high dose of aspirin in humans (90mg/kg meaning 6g-7g a day for a human). The patients did not lose weight but did get restored insulin sensitivity. So, this suggests no fat burning despite higher metabolism. However, there was no word on liver status or protein metabolism.
Anyways, I agree with the caffeine approach. The evidence if very strong from both animal and human studies that caffeine is very good for getting the liver lean again, which should help with both sugar and protein metabolism.

 

[Peata]

When I was using niacinamide and aspirin (with the caffeine), i couldn't lose any weight. I stopped the niacinamide first, and the aspirin I finally gave up by Christmas, though I wasn't normally taking enough to uncouple anyway. It's hard to say if those supplements helped or hindered, since I haven't lost weight since I stopped them (other than a couple pounds when i was sick and could barely eat, though I've mostly kept it off since)

Now i'm going to focus mainly on the caffeine, but I also use some Vitamin A, D, K and magnesium and taurine. If I can get some weight loss going...

 

[cantstoppeating]

I don't think aspirin and niacinamide aid in glucose oxidation, I think aspirin simply increases metabolism by uncoupling mitochondria and niacinamide does something similar. So, with lower doses of aspirin you could be increasing metabolism and maybe keep burning fat. With higher doses you would be blocking fat oxidation. There is a human study showing curing type II diabates by using very high dose of aspirin in humans (90mg/kg meaning 6g-7g a day for a human). The patients did not lose weight but did get restored insulin sensitivity. So, this suggests no fat burning despite higher metabolism. However, there was no word on liver status or protein metabolism.
Anyways, I agree with the caffeine approach. The evidence if very strong from both animal and human studies that caffeine is very good for getting the liver lean again, which should help with both sugar and protein metabolism.

From my understanding they do aid in glucose oxidation, largely by inhibiting serum free fatty acids, leaving no competition with glucose via the randle cycle:

The competition between fatty acids and glucose, which has been called the “Randle cycle” for about 50 years, can be applied to the treatment of diabetes and other degenerative/stress problems by adjusting the diet, or by using supplements such as niacinamide and aspirin, which improve glucose oxidation by lowering the free fatty acids in the serum.

And yes, aspirin also increases mitochondrial respiration:

Aspirin, which stimulates bone formation, has other thyroid-like actions, including activation of mitochondrial respiration and energy production, with an increase of cytochrome C oxidase (Cai, et al., 1996), and it lowers serotonin (Shen, et al., 2011)

and:

Uncoupling of mitochondrial oxidative metabolism from ATP production helps to consume the sugar which otherwise would be diverted into lactic acid, and converts it into carbon dioxide instead…Aspirin and thyroid (T3) increase uncoupling. A drug that used to be used for weight reduction, DNP, also uncouples mitochondrial metabolism, and, surprisingly, it has some of the beneficial effects of thyroid and aspirin. It stimulates the consumption of lactic acid and the formation of carbon dioxide.

Aspirin has a myriad of other benefits (like prostaglandin inhibition resulting in lowered estrogen) which, at low doses, can be included when one is looking to flush out and burn excess fat.

 

[haidut]

I don't think aspirin and niacinamide aid in glucose oxidation, I think aspirin simply increases metabolism by uncoupling mitochondria and niacinamide does something similar. So, with lower doses of aspirin you could be increasing metabolism and maybe keep burning fat. With higher doses you would be blocking fat oxidation. There is a human study showing curing type II diabates by using very high dose of aspirin in humans (90mg/kg meaning 6g-7g a day for a human). The patients did not lose weight but did get restored insulin sensitivity. So, this suggests no fat burning despite higher metabolism. However, there was no word on liver status or protein metabolism.
Anyways, I agree with the caffeine approach. The evidence if very strong from both animal and human studies that caffeine is very good for getting the liver lean again, which should help with both sugar and protein metabolism.

From my understanding they do aid in glucose oxidation, largely by inhibiting serum free fatty acids, leaving no competition with glucose via the randle cycle:

The competition between fatty acids and glucose, which has been called the “Randle cycle” for about 50 years, can be applied to the treatment of diabetes and other degenerative/stress problems by adjusting the diet, or by using supplements such as niacinamide and aspirin, which improve glucose oxidation by lowering the free fatty acids in the serum.

And yes, aspirin also increases mitochondrial respiration:

Aspirin, which stimulates bone formation, has other thyroid-like actions, including activation of mitochondrial respiration and energy production, with an increase of cytochrome C oxidase (Cai, et al., 1996), and it lowers serotonin (Shen, et al., 2011)

and:

Uncoupling of mitochondrial oxidative metabolism from ATP production helps to consume the sugar which otherwise would be diverted into lactic acid, and converts it into carbon dioxide instead…Aspirin and thyroid (T3) increase uncoupling. A drug that used to be used for weight reduction, DNP, also uncouples mitochondrial metabolism, and, surprisingly, it has some of the beneficial effects of thyroid and aspirin. It stimulates the consumption of lactic acid and the formation of carbon dioxide.

Aspirin has a myriad of other benefits (like prostaglandin inhibition resulting in lowered estrogen) which, at low doses, can be included when one is looking to flush out and burn excess fat.

Just because free fatty acids in the blood are lowered and glucose is increased does NOT mean you will be burning glucose well. That's really the hallmark of the diabetic metabolism - not absorbing glucose even though insulin is elevated and fatty acids in the bloodstream are suppressed. If it was as easy as simply increasing blood glucose levels there would be no such thing as type II diabetes and no myriad of drugs to treat it. I think Ray has a great point on diabetes being caused by excessive fatty acid oxidation and this is confirmed by animals in hibernation becoming diabetic (due to burning stored fat). However, once the cells adapt to burning fat it is not clear that simply increasing glucose in the blood will help fix the problem. If you developed a fatty liver, you will continue to be diabetic or insulin resistant regardless of how much glucose is in your blood. What is needed is restored insulin sensitivity AND oxidative phosphorylation. Fixing liver issues should take care of the first, but then you have to make sure you are turning the glucose into CO2 and not lactic acid. For that you probably need to supplement caffeine, thiamine, niacinamide and aspirin. So, caffeine seems to be a great substance here. Not only it gets your liver lean again but it also makes sure you burn the sugar properly and generate CO2 rather than lactic acid. Combining thiamine and caffeine should make it even more efective b/c thiamine would further lower lactic acid and increase CO2.

 

[Peata]

quick questions on the topic of liver issues - do you think a low fat diet is better for someone with a fatty liver?

 

[haidut]

quick questions on the topic of liver issues - do you think a low fat diet is better for someone with a fatty liver?

Don't know for sure but there are studies showing reversing cirrhosis using 60g-70g of saturated fat a day (both coconut oil and butter should work). So, if cirrhosis is a last stage fatty liver disease being helped by saturated fat then I would guess the liver is being helped by some types of fat. But I don't know if for milder cases like NAFLD extra fat would be good or bad. I know studies showed that high fat diet made people fatter even when it was saturated and even Peat has said he does NOT recommend full fat milk and cheese on a regular basis.
I guess it really depends on the individual liver issue. If you are simply gaining weight and the liver is sluggish but not damaged then lowering fat intake may be helpful. But in cases of fibrotic disease like cirrhosis getting liver cells uncoupled by using saturated fat may be one of the few ways to get it reversed.

 

[cantstoppeating]

Just because free fatty acids in the blood are lowered and glucose is increased does NOT mean you will be burning glucose well. That's really the hallmark of the diabetic metabolism - not absorbing glucose even though insulin is elevated and fatty acids in the bloodstream are suppressed. If it was as easy as simply increasing blood glucose levels there would be no such thing as type II diabetes and no myriad of drugs to treat it. I think Ray has a great point on diabetes being caused by excessive fatty acid oxidation and this is confirmed by animals in hibernation becoming diabetic (due to burning stored fat). However, once the cells adapt to burning fat it is not clear that simply increasing glucose in the blood will help fix the problem. If you developed a fatty liver, you will continue to be diabetic or insulin resistant regardless of how much glucose is in your blood. What is needed is restored insulin sensitivity AND oxidative phosphorylation. Fixing liver issues should take care of the first, but then you have to make sure you are turning the glucose into CO2 and not lactic acid. For that you probably need to supplement caffeine, thiamine, niacinamide and aspirin. So, caffeine seems to be a great substance here. Not only it gets your liver lean again but it also makes sure you burn the sugar properly and generate CO2 rather than lactic acid. Combining thiamine and caffeine should make it even more efective b/c thiamine would further lower lactic acid and increase CO2.

That makes perfect sense and it filled in a few gaps in my knowledge. Thanks Haidut.