Surrogates For Thyroid Hormone

[gummybear]

I got very curious when I read this thread some week ago and since im gotta try everything I got loaded up with niacinamide caffeine pills and aspirin.

And hot balls of fire it worked like mad. I can't use my thyroid meds because I get to hot and my pulse gets to high so im not taking any just this magnificent combo. Maybe it helps against learned helplessness also I don't know. I feel more alert than before. And also more hungry.

 

[solaire_of_astora]

I've been at this caffeine stack for about a week and a half. So far it has improved several aspects of my health.

Libido: My desire and interest in the opposite sex is markedly increased. Morning wood is hit and miss. Satisfaction from orgasm is about the same.
Digestion: Quality of poop is better; less straining and wiping. Still have tough poops here and there.
Emotional: I feel less prone to depression and helplessness although I had a crying spell a few days back.
Mental: Tends to make me more focused and desirous of creative activities such as writing and drawing.
Physical: Tends to relax tense muscles or give me physical energy to move around.
Social: I feel more playful and witty when I'm around my friends.

The only drawback so far has been nausea. It tends to happen mostly in the morning, but sometimes it can strike in the late afternoon and evening. I suspect that maybe I need more sugar and protein, but it's difficult to eat when the nausea kicks in. I've limited myself to only one dose as a result, but I still seem to get nausea, albeit mild. Taking Alka-Seltzer usually calms it down. I'm also getting increased saliva production; so much so that I'm spitting into a bucket throughout the day.

Anyway, overall it has been a step in the right direction for me.

 

[Brian]

Are there any veterans of this aspirin/niacinamide/caffeine combo out there who have been consistently using it for months? What has your experience been? Would you recommend it as a way, at least temporarily, to increase metabolic rate without NDT supplemenation?

 

[Fetch]

If Hiadut is still following this thread could you comment on it in context to the caffeine/k2/etc protocol you have been working on. From your perspective is this earlier combination something that led you to have "slightly elevated liver enzymes" with the use of both aspirin/niacinamide. If so would you still think this earlier combination is useful possibly after the caffeine/k2 or would it just lead back to a fatty liver. I know these are all just ideas you are working out for yourself and are not exactly cut and dry by any means. But you seem very well read and I find your perspective quite interesting. Thanks

 

[haidut]

If Hiadut is still following this thread could you comment on it in context to the caffeine/k2/etc protocol you have been working on. From your perspective is this earlier combination something that led you to have "slightly elevated liver enzymes" with the use of both aspirin/niacinamide. If so would you still think this earlier combination is useful possibly after the caffeine/k2 or would it just lead back to a fatty liver. I know these are all just ideas you are working out for yourself and are not exactly cut and dry by any means. But you seem very well read and I find your perspective quite interesting. Thanks

I think my slightly elevated liver enzymes were the result of exhaustive exercise and muscle damage. Only my AST was elevated and I was told that it is actually used as a marker for muscle damage from overtraining, including damage to the heart muscle in heart attacks!
Anyways, I think my problems with metabolizing sugar were due to years of low-carb Paleo diet and "aerobic" exercise. Then then I switched to the Peat diet I piled on some weight like many other people here. Then my doctor asked me lose weight, which I never have a problem doing through exercise, but it seemed to make my sugar/insulin resistance worse due to burdening the liver even more. So, I stopped the running and started taking caffeine and K2 which normalized AST, lowered the other enzymes by 40%-50% and now I seem to be able to eat sugar without getting a sugar crash or storing as fat. My blood glucose levels also went down and my blood pressure normalized as well. Blood pressure was not high before but it would shoot high after not eating for a while, most likely due to adrenalin and cortisol. Now it is fairly stable.
Not sure what else I can add, but liver health seems to be crucial to handling sugar and I think it also affects thyroid. You can have a perfectly good thyroid producing T4 and if the live is not converting it into T3 then you have an issue no matter how much supplemental NDT you take. Also, with burdened liver the sugar you are loading up with hopes of converting more T4 into T3 will likely fatten up the liver instead. So, get liver working well and estrogen / sugar should not be an issue any more.

 

[Fetch]

Thanks for the quick response I come from a similar diet/exercise background and have been starting the caffeine/k2 this week. Though I already probably get close the 400+ caffeine from coffee without much negative issues. I am reluctant to start thyroid so this "surrogate" interests me. I would say my main issues are probably years of running on cortisol and adrenaline and also probably high serotonin nothing new there. Thanks again

 

[Brian]

So supplemental niacinamide and aspirin would be counterproductive while taking caffeine for working on liver health?

 

[Fetch]

I'm not sure anyone really knows. But if i understand correctly both aspirin and niacinamide force the body to not burn fat therefore less oxidized pufa. However if you have a fatty liver maybe you want to force some fat burning temporarily in order to clear from your liver. Something else people are adding to the combo it seams is a very low fat diet in order to force your body to use what it has stored. I am just a follower in this experiment and not really the best source of advice on it yet.

One thing I am curious about is if you are forcing the burning of pufa and the release of estrogen and other liver stored nastiness in general. Can you expect to feel pretty bad for a week or so before things get better?

 

[haidut]

So supplemental niacinamide and aspirin would be counterproductive while taking caffeine for working on liver health?

Caffeine forces the liver to "flush" it own fat into the bloodstream. So, if you have fatty liver it will help clear that even if you take niacinamide and aspirin. But the niacinamide/aspirin combo may inhibit losing the other fat stored into the various tissues. That's one part of Peat's recommendations that confuses me. He says that the muscles burn almost exclusively fat when at rest, so if you have decent muscle mass you should be able to lose weight naturally and not worry about exercise. He said that in a context that burning fat is sometimes OK - i.e. when the muscles are doing it at rest. However, how would the muscles burn that fat if you also take niacinamide/aspirin? I would imagine taking that combo would hamper the ability of muscles to burn fat and make them rely more on sugar. It seems like a catch 22 somewhat - build muscles to burn fat but if you are already fat then how do you build muscles without much exercise?

 

[superhuman]

RP told me that niacinamide esp on the low side does not hamper fat loss, it helps the liver make it easier actually :)

haidut: what have you found the best things for solving the liver problem or "fixing it" ? i know protein is great. Anything else?

 

[sweetpeat]

RP told me that niacinamide esp on the low side does not hamper fat loss, it helps the liver make it easier actually :)

What would a low dose be? I've been avoiding niacinamide except for the 50 mg in my b complex.

 

[tara]

RP told me that niacinamide esp on the low side does not hamper fat loss, it helps the liver make it easier actually :)

What would a low dose be? I've been avoiding niacinamide except for the 50 mg in my b complex.

Thanks superhuman, that's helpful in this complex (to me anyway :)) discussion.

I think Peat has from time to time recommended doses like 50-100 mg 2- (or maybe more?) times a day (short half life). I'm guessing that would count as lowish?

 

[haidut]

RP told me that niacinamide esp on the low side does not hamper fat loss, it helps the liver make it easier actually :)

haidut: what have you found the best things for solving the liver problem or "fixing it" ? i know protein is great. Anything else?

That's good to know, but I still think that if you are taking a fat oxidation inhibiting substance then you will also be hindering your muscles ability to burn fat as well. If that's not the case then maybe there is a mechanism we don't know about that Ray has in mind. I you get more info on this from him please share.
I have found that magnesium is also great for the liver. There are studies on PubMed showing it can treat NAFLD and also apparently "works like a statin" (quote from a study) showing comparable efficacy to Lipitor in bringing down cholesterol numbers.

 

[dd99]

Interesting, haidut. How much magnesium did it take to have that effect and what kind did they test? (Sorry if you've posted on this before, I'm on a crappy phone so can't search easily until later.)

 

[4peatssake]

RP told me that niacinamide esp on the low side does not hamper fat loss, it helps the liver make it easier actually :)

haidut: what have you found the best things for solving the liver problem or "fixing it" ? i know protein is great. Anything else?

That's good to know, but I still think that if you are taking a fat oxidation inhibiting substance then you will also be hindering your muscles ability to burn fat as well. If that's not the case then maybe there is a mechanism we don't know about that Ray has in mind. I you get more info on this from him please share.
I have found that magnesium is also great for the liver. There are studies on PubMed showing it can treat NAFLD and also apparently "works like a statin" (quote from a study) showing comparable efficacy to Lipitor in bringing down cholesterol numbers.

How would you phrase the question haidut?
I'll ask him next time I sent transcripts.

 

[haidut]

RP told me that niacinamide esp on the low side does not hamper fat loss, it helps the liver make it easier actually :)

haidut: what have you found the best things for solving the liver problem or "fixing it" ? i know protein is great. Anything else?

That's good to know, but I still think that if you are taking a fat oxidation inhibiting substance then you will also be hindering your muscles ability to burn fat as well. If that's not the case then maybe there is a mechanism we don't know about that Ray has in mind. I you get more info on this from him please share.
I have found that magnesium is also great for the liver. There are studies on PubMed showing it can treat NAFLD and also apparently "works like a statin" (quote from a study) showing comparable efficacy to Lipitor in bringing down cholesterol numbers.

How would you phrase the question haidut?
I'll ask him next time I sent transcripts.

I would simply say "In some of your interviews you said that fat oxidation is best left to muscles at rest, since this is their preferred fuel. Wouldn't taking substances like niacinamide and aspirin interfere with the muscles' abillity to oxidize fat?"

 

[haidut]

Interesting, haidut. How much magnesium did it take to have that effect and what kind did they test? (Sorry if you've posted on this before, I'm on a crappy phone so can't search easily until later.)

Here are the studies. I think the 400mg RDA daily dose is plenty since about 5 years ago (way before Peating) I was asked by the doctor to lower cholesterol and I found out about magnesium. When I took 400mg plain magnesium oxide for 2 weeks my total cholesterol went down from 228 to 162. The doctor said he is certain I am taking off-label drug of some sorts but then agreed that magnesium would have that effect after seeing the studies. So now, before prescribing a drug to his patients he sends me an email asking "hey, do you know of a natural substance that has been shown in a study to work like drug X"
I think his other patients are asking more and more for alternatives to poisons like statins and beta blockers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15466951

"...Mg has effects that parallel those of statins. For example, the enzyme that deactivates HMG-CoA Reductase requires Mg, making Mg a Reductase controller rather than inhibitor. Mg is also necessary for the activity of lecithin cholesterol acyl transferase (LCAT), which lowers LDL-C and triglyceride levels and raises HDL-C levels. Desaturase is another Mg-dependent enzyme involved in lipid metabolism which statins do not directly affect. Desaturase catalyzes the first step in conversion of essential fatty acids (omega-3 linoleic acid and omega-6 linolenic acid) into prostaglandins, important in cardiovascular and overall health. Mg at optimal cellular concentration is well accepted as a natural calcium channel blocker. More recent work shows that Mg also acts as a statin."

http://www.rejuvenation-science.com/n_m ... atins.html

"...A review published in the October 2004 issue of the Journal of the American College of Nutrition has found that the beneficial effects of magnesium could outweigh those of statin drugs. Statins are a class of drugs commonly prescribed for individuals with elevated cholesterol levels, a risk factor for cardiovascular disease. Because the statin drugs have side effects, some people are seeking alternative ways to improve their cardiovascular disease risk."

 

[4peatssake]

I would simply say "In some of your interviews you said that fat oxidation is best left to muscles at rest, since this is their preferred fuel. Wouldn't taking substances like niacinamide and aspirin interfere with the muscles' abillity to oxidize fat?"

Okay, very good. I'll post back here and to the RP email depository if he answers.

 

[Suikerbuik]

Wouldn't taking substances like niacinamide and aspirin interfere with the muscles' abillity to oxidize fat?"

I'd say that inhibiting lypolysis doesn't mean suppressing fatty acid oxidation.

 

[haidut]

Wouldn't taking substances like niacinamide and aspirin interfere with the muscles' abillity to oxidize fat?"

I'd say that inhibiting lypolysis doesn't mean suppressing fatty acid oxidation.

I think aspirin (and maybe niacinamide) also inhibits fatty acid oxidation. Here is one reference:

http://www.pharmacologyweekly.com/artic ... phalopathy

"...As it relates to hepatic fat accumulaiton, salicylates and its metabolites (in particular HHA and gentisate) have been shown to competitively inhibit the enzyme long chain 3-hydroxyacyl-CoA dehydrogenase (LCHAD) which is involved in the b-oxidation of fatty acids. The inhibition of fatty acid metabolism is important given the fact that hepatocytes utilize fatty acids via oxidative phosphorylation through the tricarboxylic acid cycle (TCA) in the mitochondria to make energy."

I am just not sure if this happens mostly in the liver, or other tissues as well.