Caffeine & Thyroids Relationship To Satiety

[cyclops]

I don't know what the OP wants.
Some people are afraid of T3 and want more T4
Some people convert T4 better than others so they want/can take more.
So my comment was more in that vane.... IF he wants to see if he can take less T3 and is inclined to WANT to take more T4
he can modify accordingly.

I couldn't venture a guess as to how much T3 someone would take
Barnes said the avg person needed 2 grains of NDT to feel good
some 3 and a smaller segment needed as much as 4 grains.
A grain being roughly 40mcg T4/10mcg T3 - so essentially 50mcg = 1 grain of total T
2 grains total T = 100mcg
100mcg of T3 would be 4 25mcg tabs (that would be a LOT of T3)
so needless to say the translation from Barnes wouldn't work directly
and I'd assume that's because of the common failure to convert T4 to T3

I think its probably reasonable that across a large population you'd see the T3 dose from 12.5(1/2tab) to as much as 50mcg(2 tabs)
Its critical to be clear that this is 100% a guess on my part just observing a hanful of people I know that I discuss these things with
and my own personal dosing experience.

The best part about dosing T3 is if you go slow, pay attention and fuel it.... its very very easy to figure out.

That makes sense. Good info. Thanks. Is all T4 supposed to convert into t3 if everything is running correctly?

 

[jitsmonkey]

That makes sense. Good info. Thanks. Is all T4 supposed to convert into t3 if everything is running correctly?

I think that's kind of like "if the right people win the election will the government run smoothly?" ;-)
I think a function of health is the ability to convert T4 to T3 but I have never read or seen anything that specifically spoke
to the ability to REGAIN that ability. Most people I know who think about these things end up using mostly T3 during the day
and if they choose they take .25-.5 tab of cynoplus or an NDT that works for them near bed time

 

[cyclops]

I think that's kind of like "if the right people win the election will the government run smoothly?" ;-)
I think a function of health is the ability to convert T4 to T3 but I have never read or seen anything that specifically spoke
to the ability to REGAIN that ability. Most people I know who think about these things end up using mostly T3 during the day
and if they choose they take .25-.5 tab of cynoplus or an NDT that works for them near bed time

Yeah, I was just wondering if T4 has its own function or role to play in the body or if it is only useful if it is converted into T3. I think I heard there is some other thyroid forms too: T2, T1??? Just trying to understand, what role these play if any. Or is only T3 useful.

 

[jitsmonkey]

Yeah, I was just wondering if T4 has its own function or role to play in the body or if it is only useful if it is converted into T3. I think I heard there is some other thyroid forms too: T2, T1??? Just trying to understand, what role these play if any. Or is only T3 useful.

I would assume all of the variants are there without purpose
However considering the difficulty in even getting T3 or T4 in a supplemental form that actually works and does what its supposed to do
I think the only hope of getting ALL that thyroid is designed to offer would be eating the organ itself. And that's a bit of a hassle to measure and get in some uniform sort of fashion.

 

[cyclops]

I would assume all of the variants are there without purpose
However considering the difficulty in even getting T3 or T4 in a supplemental form that actually works and does what its supposed to do
I think the only hope of getting ALL that thyroid is designed to offer would be eating the organ itself. And that's a bit of a hassle to measure and get in some uniform sort of fashion.

Well natural thyroid would have all the forms right?

 

[jitsmonkey]

Well natural thyroid would have all the forms right?

when you say "natural" do you mean NDT?

If so then the answer would ideally be "maybe"
but I have tried at least a dozen different NDT's over the years and not one of them did a thing to improve my pulse, temp or mood even in ridiculously large doses.
I've spoken to maybe half a dozen others who found the same.
So I'd be extremely skeptical as to the answer to your question being "yes"
but I certainly wouldn't dissuade you from trying it.

 

[cyclops]

when you say "natural" do you mean NDT?

If so then the answer would ideally be "maybe"
but I have tried at least a dozen different NDT's over the years and not one of them did a thing to improve my pulse, temp or mood even in ridiculously large doses.
I've spoken to maybe half a dozen others who found the same.
So I'd be extremely skeptical as to the answer to your question being "yes"
but I certainly wouldn't dissuade you from trying it.

Yea thats what I was talking about. Cool man thanks.

 

[jitsmonkey]

Yea thats what I was talking about. Cool man thanks.

Sure thing.... I should also say that I do know people who've taken NDT and report feeling better on it.
They are in the minority but they are out there.

 

[Jsaute21]

maybe add more sugar to morning coffee, that's what I've been trying to do. The gas pedal is being pushed harder than the gas tank can handle, I think that's how the functionalps guy put it; Coffee Done Right – Tips to Help Avoid Coffee Intolerance – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Yeah I think this is spot on. I am attempting this currently. 3 tablespoons weren't enough. Went with 10 tsps today and feel better.

 

[Jsaute21]

Waking From 8 hour fast
Empty tank
150 cals of sugar is enough to stop the stress response..... WITHOUT a stimulant stacked on it.
(this is specific for YOU based upon your information provided. some may do fine with less, some may need more. I needed more)

Meaning that's a good amount of sugar to stop the post darkness fasting stress response
BUT if you're going to stack a stimulant on top of it.... stim being thyroid, caff, etc....
you're not stopping the stress response you're making it worse.

Its easy to test
pre post temps pulse 150cals sugar plus coffee
pre post temps pulse 300cals sugar plus coffee

My suggestion would be 4-12 ounces of OJ pre coffee (you'll have to play and test to see how much OJ does the trick)
then do whatever you like to do with your coffee.


as for dosing cynomel this is much easier than cynoplus.
for cynomel just cut the tabs with a razor blade into quarters and eat them through out the day
you'll need a good week or two of taking pulse and temps often (which is a giant pain in the ****)
but the effort is worth it. You'll easily find your dose when your pulse and temps come around
If you want to factor in cynoplus I'd do the above and stop cynomel around 6/7pm and hit a quarter tab of cynoplus about an hour before bed.

then when you figure out your cynomel dose you can mess with your cynoplus dose.

Extremely helpful post. i think I quite simply just need more sugar. I am getting 300 g a day but I am 195 and muscular. Probably need 500 G. I have rotated between taking cynoplus 1-3x a day, which means either with all three meals or just with dinner. Cynomel I am essentially dosing the way you are recommending. I like your OJ recommendation but I think I am going to try putting 10-15 tsps of sugar n my coffee (150-200 Cals) and see where that gets me. I drink too much coffeee when I have it with a meal or after my first meal for whatever reason. I usually follow my morning coffee with 3-4 serving of OJ,eggs, cheese and a serving of healthy sourdough bread. Pulse rises substantially with this meal. The goal Is to not have it drop an hour or two after it.

I will follow back with an update but thanks for the helpful post.

 

[Arnold Grape]

maybe add more sugar to morning coffee, that's what I've been trying to do. The gas pedal is being pushed harder than the gas tank can handle, I think that's how the functionalps guy put it; Coffee Done Right – Tips to Help Avoid Coffee Intolerance – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Agreed -- Especially taking with Taurine, from what I understand, is a bad idea without adequate carbs. There are various places to read about coffee making people catabolic and/ or initiating a stress response on an empty stomach.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I think people who don't respond to T4 or T3 are just not ready for it. I have had the experience where it did nothing. But more recently it seems to really work for me, in terms of higher energy and higher HR and higher temps.

 

[Jsaute21]

I think people who don't respond to T4 or T3 are just not ready for it. I have had the experience where it did nothing. But more recently it seems to really work for me, in terms of higher energy and higher HR and higher temps.

This certainly seems to be the case.

However, the $ million question is should one use thyroid to improve sub optimal metabolism, or rely on solely nutrition, caffeine and less intense supplements like taurine, estroban etc. to prep the body for thyroid. IMO, it seems as if Peat often recommends thyroid for those with sub optimal metabolisms in hope that it expedites the healing process. I remember @tca300 saying that when he first took cynomel it took a big dose to warm him up at all, and then over time he needed less of it. It seems as if this is somewhat emblematic of a typical healing process.

This entire process is confusing because people have healed themselves using many different methods, and often they oppose one another. Some say to start slow with thyroid, because their pulse is already high from stress hormones. For me, who is coming from a restrictive eating & over trained athlete perspective, my pulse & temp are both a bit low. This leads me to balance between being patient while at the same time trying to raise temps & pulse as much as i can.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I think that what helped me a lot was doing some very low fat periods of a few weeks each, red light, riboflavin, magnesium, mushrooms...I guess that's a long list, LOL.

I took thyroid on and off but it only started to have an effect in the last few months. I did a Richfield temperature reset and aim for warm temperatures all the time, and that seems to have helped a lot.

I find T4/T3 from Tyromix seems to be right, with occasional T3 only. I use it topically.

 

[tca300]

This certainly seems to be the case.

However, the $ million question is should one use thyroid to improve sub optimal metabolism, or rely on solely nutrition, caffeine and less intense supplements like taurine, estroban etc. to prep the body for thyroid. IMO, it seems as if Peat often recommends thyroid for those with sub optimal metabolisms in hope that it expedites the healing process. I remember @tca300 saying that when he first took cynomel it took a big dose to warm him up at all, and then over time he needed less of it. It seems as if this is somewhat emblematic of a typical healing process.

This entire process is confusing because people have healed themselves using many different methods, and often they oppose one another. Some say to start slow with thyroid, because their pulse is already high from stress hormones. For me, who is coming from a restrictive eating & over trained athlete perspective, my pulse & temp are both a bit low. This leads me to balance between being patient while at the same time trying to raise temps & pulse as much as i can.

I think I was so saturated with PUFA that Thyroid didn't get into the cell. Over time as the years went by I think I decreased tissue PUFA content enough to make me more sensitive to thyroid, and experience increased temps, heart rate, well being, etc from it.

 

[Jsaute21]

I think I was so saturated with PUFA that Thyroid didn't get into the cell. Over time as the years went by I think I decreased tissue PUFA content enough to make me more sensitive to thyroid, and experience increased temps, heart rate, well being, etc from it.

That makes sense. I am at about a year of very low PUFA. I definitely am improving though pulse & temps don't always reveal so. I have regained my sprinting explosiveness & speed, which i cant fully express how important that is to me. I used to be very fast, and due to poor dietary habits, my body was not performing at the level i was used to. Improving metabolism has allowed me to be athletic again, and i will forever be in debt!

 

[jitsmonkey]

I have had spotty experiences with literally a dozen or more thyroid supps/meds
Cynomel is the ONLY one that has performed predictably and reliably.
I have spoken to a handful of friends who've echoed the same.

 

[jitsmonkey]

This certainly seems to be the case.

However, the $ million question is should one use thyroid to improve sub optimal metabolism, or rely on solely nutrition, caffeine and less intense supplements like taurine, estroban etc. to prep the body for thyroid. IMO, it seems as if Peat often recommends thyroid for those with sub optimal metabolisms in hope that it expedites the healing process. I remember @tca300 saying that when he first took cynomel it took a big dose to warm him up at all, and then over time he needed less of it. It seems as if this is somewhat emblematic of a typical healing process.

This entire process is confusing because people have healed themselves using many different methods, and often they oppose one another. Some say to start slow with thyroid, because their pulse is already high from stress hormones. For me, who is coming from a restrictive eating & over trained athlete perspective, my pulse & temp are both a bit low. This leads me to balance between being patient while at the same time trying to raise temps & pulse as much as i can.

J this is a path that everyone must decide for themselves
I arrived here after 3 years of 3 a day training sessions on 1600cals per day
Great for weight loss.... Horrible for everything else not weight loss.

I also have a lifetime history of digestive issues which indirectly resulted in 30+ years of sporadic unintentional caloric/fuel restriction

Thyroid imo is harmless provided you
a) have enough fuel and are not restricting its consumption
b) are aware that a rise in pulse and temp may make your "normal" activities/training "too stressful" for a period of time
c) you have a good handle on nutritional rate limiters that are obvious... ie. increased metabolism means you're going to use up EVERYTHING faster. Fuel, fat sol vits, other minerals and vits, etc....
d) you have at least resources to speak to or engage with people who have more experience than you to discuss the rate limiters that are NOT obvious or figuring out
different things that happen... ie. I finally got my cynomel dose dialed in and within a few days my teeth started hurting... I knew enough to know that this is likely an issue in the Calcium/Phosphorous/D/K/mag neighborhood. I didn't know which but I knew where to look. My Cal is always above my phos so I knew that wasn't an issue. I knew my mag consumption was low and I knew K could be an issue. I didn't think D was an issue... 2 days of 20 mg of K and teeth pain gone.

The point is that the effect of a high quality thyroid sup is easy to measure and document
IF you end up with using up an essential nutrient that will show up and having the knowledge yourself or the resources to access how to solve that
then benefiting from Thyroid is easy.
IF you don't have those resources then simply lowering your T dosage until symptoms abate lets you go slower but still get the T benefit without stripping your internal resources. If you can't dose T at all without negative sides then you just have to go slower until you understand where/why the sides are coming on and once you do you can simply restart your T experiment

I'm not in anyway saying everyone should or can do this. I don't have a list of references or citations.
I'm just sharing my own long and sucky experience leading up to benefiting from Thyroid supp and the experience of a handful of friends
I've discussed this with.

 

[Jsaute21]

J this is a path that everyone must decide for themselves
I arrived here after 3 years of 3 a day training sessions on 1600cals per day
Great for weight loss.... Horrible for everything else not weight loss.

I also have a lifetime history of digestive issues which indirectly resulted in 30+ years of sporadic unintentional caloric/fuel restriction

Thyroid imo is harmless provided you
a) have enough fuel and are not restricting its consumption
b) are aware that a rise in pulse and temp may make your "normal" activities/training "too stressful" for a period of time
c) you have a good handle on nutritional rate limiters that are obvious... ie. increased metabolism means you're going to use up EVERYTHING faster. Fuel, fat sol vits, other minerals and vits, etc....
d) you have at least resources to speak to or engage with people who have more experience than you to discuss the rate limiters that are NOT obvious or figuring out
different things that happen... ie. I finally got my cynomel dose dialed in and within a few days my teeth started hurting... I knew enough to know that this is likely an issue in the Calcium/Phosphorous/D/K/mag neighborhood. I didn't know which but I knew where to look. My Cal is always above my phos so I knew that wasn't an issue. I knew my mag consumption was low and I knew K could be an issue. I didn't think D was an issue... 2 days of 20 mg of K and teeth pain gone.

The point is that the effect of a high quality thyroid sup is easy to measure and document
IF you end up with using up an essential nutrient that will show up and having the knowledge yourself or the resources to access how to solve that
then benefiting from Thyroid is easy.
IF you don't have those resources then simply lowering your T dosage until symptoms abate lets you go slower but still get the T benefit without stripping your internal resources. If you can't dose T at all without negative sides then you just have to go slower until you understand where/why the sides are coming on and once you do you can simply restart your T experiment

I'm not in anyway saying everyone should or can do this. I don't have a list of references or citations.
I'm just sharing my own long and sucky experience leading up to benefiting from Thyroid supp and the experience of a handful of friends
I've discussed this with.

Good stuff. Adding a lot of sugar to my coffee has already made a difference. I woke up with a pulse of 60 opposed to that of 48 4 days ago. Big difference. Pulse got up to 85 today after my breakfast with 10 MCG of cynomel, aspirin and baking soda supplemented in. Im down to 70 now an hour later but still progress.

 

[jitsmonkey]

good to hear. ;-)
lots of fuel, lots of nutrients, consistent accurate measure/tracking of pulse/temp/mood, don't be in a hurry... you'll be golden in short order.

Good stuff. Adding a lot of sugar to my coffee has already made a difference. I woke up with a pulse of 60 opposed to that of 48 4 days ago. Big difference. Pulse got up to 85 today after my breakfast with 10 MCG of cynomel, aspirin and baking soda supplemented in. Im down to 70 now an hour later but still progress.