Surrogates For Thyroid Hormone

[milk_lover]

post 110527 If the word "thyroid" is replaced with the word "magnesium" in Ray Peat's writings, most of it would still be true.

Can you explain this more? I know good thyroid function helps with magnesium retention in the body, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing.

 

[tara]

post 110609 I would say epigenetically determined because my mother and grandmother both have huge hypothyroid symptoms and I was hypothyroid right from birth. But you may be right, I'm not a genetic determinist, still have a lot to study in that field.

Yes, and conditions in recent years too. Severe long-term undereating always results in either low thyroid function or catabolism or both.

 

[Agent207]

If you are producing enough T4 then I don't think it is justified to take thyroid supplement since the issue seems to be conversion into T3, which is almost entirely dependent on liver health and somewhat on muscle mass. So, if T3 makes you feel fine and your T4 is low then it's probably OK. But if your thyroid is making enough T4 I see no reason why you should inhibit it by taking T3. A thyroid that has been inhibited by taking T3 sometimes can take months to recover into producing normal amounts of T4 and while it is recovering TSH will likely become very high. On the other hand, I would not take pure T4 either since if liver is not converting it into T3 you are making the situation worse. I guess what I am saying is that there is a valid reason for supplementing with thyroid but if the issue lies somewhere else down the pathways like conversion of T4 into T3 then a person should focus on fixing that issue rather than loading up on T4/T3 combo just to make themselves feel better.

Why would the supplemental T3 to reach physiological levels be more inhibitory than the T3 converted naturally by the body with healthy liver?

 

[TeslaFan]

post 110614

post 110527 If the word "thyroid" is replaced with the word "magnesium" in Ray Peat's writings, most of it would still be true.

Can you explain this more? I know good thyroid function helps with magnesium retention in the body, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing.

Like you said, "thyroid function helps with magnesium retention in the body" and this is true. It goes both ways. ATP molecule, which generates energy in each cell, is Magnesium-ATP chelate. Thyroid hormone cannot initiate generation of cellular energy without the presence of Magnesium.

One way to abstract this is that Magnesium, among minerals, is what thyroid is among hormones.

So, to clarify: I am saying that the context in which Ray Peat writes about thyroid, is often such that if you replace those words, it would still be true. I am not suggesting that Mg and thyroid are the same thing, or that what RP wrote about thyroid is untrue.

 

[milk_lover]

post 110614

post 110527 If the word "thyroid" is replaced with the word "magnesium" in Ray Peat's writings, most of it would still be true.

Can you explain this more? I know good thyroid function helps with magnesium retention in the body, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing.

Like you said, "thyroid function helps with magnesium retention in the body" and this is true. It goes both ways. ATP molecule, which generates energy in each cell, is Magnesium-ATP chelate. Thyroid hormone cannot initiate generation of cellular energy without the presence of Magnesium.

One way to abstract this is that Magnesium, among minerals, is what thyroid is among hormones.

So, to clarify: I am saying that the context in which Ray Peat writes about thyroid, is often such that if you replace those words, it would still be true. I am not suggesting that Mg and thyroid are the same thing, or that what RP wrote about thyroid is untrue.

Thanks for your response I guess that makes sense.

 

[Ewelina]

post 68208

@ haidut - Thanks for all your input, I have learned a lot from your ideas!

Have you changed from the original protocol posted in favor of just K2 and caffeine tabs (for better overall liver / body fat removal)?

I found your statement fascinating that even if you are taking NDT but the liver is burdened, then this may not be the solution. It's planted a seed that this could be my case as I have been taking NDT for over a year, been eating well and still can't hold a decent temperature / pulse all day.

I think it was Such Saturation that posted about keeping warm with extra clothing with frequent doses of thyroid to bring up temps and then try hold them there. That is the only way I can stay warm through the day and it is rather tiring sitting at my desk in summer clothed like an Eskimo.

Perhaps It could be that some of us who try hard at this but are not quite there yet, are missing the benefits of healthy liver functions?

Also wanted to ask if you think low sunlight is ok if one uses a good daily D3 supplement?

I still take K2 but not any more in such high doses. I use EstroBan, and usually take 2 doses of that so my total intake of K2 is about 5mg daily. Vitamin D3 is about 2,000 IU daily and vitamin A is 10,000 - 15,000 IU daily. Vitamin E is 200IU - 400 IU daily.
In the winter I sit under my 6 lamps carrying 500W incandescent bulbs each. They are pointed at the wall but when I an in that room I feel like the sun is beaming at me from all directions.
In the summer, I do try to get my sunlight direct but make sure I take caffeine and some niacinamide before going outside to roast.
I don't use much caffeine right now aside from what I get from 2-3 cups of coffee. I stopped feeling the effects of larger dosages (800mg+) so I took that to mean the liver has flushed its fat. If you trust lab results, my liver enzymes are at the bottom 10% of the range, which the doctor claims is freaky even if it was found in a teenager. I am not sure how good that is, but the general consensus is the lower the enzymes the better, so I'd take it.
Liver and insulin sensitivity go hand in hand, so a good way to test liver function would be to do the glucose challenge test that is often done at doctor's offices. If you score well then your liver is probably fine.

Haidut. Your posts are enlightening!

I have one question. When you improved your liver health so dramatically did you notice any changes related to your skin? I particularly mean disappearance of liver spots or moles (of course if you had any in the first place).

 

[EIRE24]

post 110668

post 110609 I would say epigenetically determined because my mother and grandmother both have huge hypothyroid symptoms and I was hypothyroid right from birth. But you may be right, I'm not a genetic determinist, still have a lot to study in that field.

Yes, and conditions in recent years too. Severe long-term undereating always results in either low thyroid function or catabolism or both.

Catabolism of the thyroid? Can this be reversed or is it permanent?

 

[haidut]

post 110719

post 68208

@ haidut - Thanks for all your input, I have learned a lot from your ideas!

Have you changed from the original protocol posted in favor of just K2 and caffeine tabs (for better overall liver / body fat removal)?

I found your statement fascinating that even if you are taking NDT but the liver is burdened, then this may not be the solution. It's planted a seed that this could be my case as I have been taking NDT for over a year, been eating well and still can't hold a decent temperature / pulse all day.

I think it was Such Saturation that posted about keeping warm with extra clothing with frequent doses of thyroid to bring up temps and then try hold them there. That is the only way I can stay warm through the day and it is rather tiring sitting at my desk in summer clothed like an Eskimo.

Perhaps It could be that some of us who try hard at this but are not quite there yet, are missing the benefits of healthy liver functions?

Also wanted to ask if you think low sunlight is ok if one uses a good daily D3 supplement?

I still take K2 but not any more in such high doses. I use EstroBan, and usually take 2 doses of that so my total intake of K2 is about 5mg daily. Vitamin D3 is about 2,000 IU daily and vitamin A is 10,000 - 15,000 IU daily. Vitamin E is 200IU - 400 IU daily.
In the winter I sit under my 6 lamps carrying 500W incandescent bulbs each. They are pointed at the wall but when I an in that room I feel like the sun is beaming at me from all directions.
In the summer, I do try to get my sunlight direct but make sure I take caffeine and some niacinamide before going outside to roast.
I don't use much caffeine right now aside from what I get from 2-3 cups of coffee. I stopped feeling the effects of larger dosages (800mg+) so I took that to mean the liver has flushed its fat. If you trust lab results, my liver enzymes are at the bottom 10% of the range, which the doctor claims is freaky even if it was found in a teenager. I am not sure how good that is, but the general consensus is the lower the enzymes the better, so I'd take it.
Liver and insulin sensitivity go hand in hand, so a good way to test liver function would be to do the glucose challenge test that is often done at doctor's offices. If you score well then your liver is probably fine.

Haidut. Your posts are enlightening!

I have one question. When you improved your liver health so dramatically did you notice any changes related to your skin? I particularly mean disappearance of liver spots or moles (of course if you had any in the first place).

I never had any liver spots or lipofucsin, but what I did notice it the ability to go longer without eating and not getting a stress response as well as much much better tolerance of alcohol similar to what I had in my 20s.

 

[Parsifal]

I never had any liver spots or lipofucsin, but what I did notice it the ability to go longer without eating and not getting a stress response as well as much much better tolerance of alcohol similar to what I had in my 20s.

Haidut, what about my question where I asked if the products you are talking about have the same effect for a hypothyroid person? Thanks mate .

 

[Ewelina]

Thanks Haidut.

 

[tara]

post 110723

post 110668

post 110609 I would say epigenetically determined because my mother and grandmother both have huge hypothyroid symptoms and I was hypothyroid right from birth. But you may be right, I'm not a genetic determinist, still have a lot to study in that field.

Yes, and conditions in recent years too. Severe long-term undereating always results in either low thyroid function or catabolism or both.

Catabolism of the thyroid? Can this be reversed or is it permanent?

Catabolism of the body in general - gluconeogenesis turning proteins to sugars. Not sure exactly what governs the choices, but I think Peat has said skin, skeletal muscles, thymus, are often amongst the early casualties. If people train particular muscles, they are less likely to be sacrificed. Under ongoing severe low fuel/high cortisol, eventually other organs are likely to be affected. I'm not so sure about this part, but I think the thyroid function usually tends to downregulate long before it is seriously damaged, and most of that function can often be restored when good conditions are restored. I don't know what the mechanisms are for actual damage to the thyroid, but my guess is that is less common.

 

[Hitoshi]

post 68322 I think Ray has a great point on diabetes being caused by excessive fatty acid oxidation and this is confirmed by animals in hibernation becoming diabetic (due to burning stored fat).

this is phsyiologic insulin resistance and not pathological. it is suited to hibernation in polar animals or those in northernmost latitudes, as insulin does not exert its action under something like 10C, not to mention this time of year in these places is impossible to grow carbohydrate due to light cycles. the problem is in a modern world, we dont enter hibernation, and we live lives full of stress and environmental mismatches. the trick, it seems, is to manage to keep enough metabolism to see us through our stressors. is this always healthy? dont know, but works in the short term.

 

[tomisonbottom]

post 68589

I think my slightly elevated liver enzymes were the result of exhaustive exercise and muscle damage. Only my AST was elevated and I was told that it is actually used as a marker for muscle damage from overtraining, including damage to the heart muscle in heart attacks!
Anyways, I think my problems with metabolizing sugar were due to years of low-carb Paleo diet and "aerobic" exercise. Then then I switched to the Peat diet I piled on some weight like many other people here. Then my doctor asked me lose weight, which I never have a problem doing through exercise, but it seemed to make my sugar/insulin resistance worse due to burdening the liver even more. So, I stopped the running and started taking caffeine and K2 which normalized AST, lowered the other enzymes by 40%-50% and now I seem to be able to eat sugar without getting a sugar crash or storing as fat. My blood glucose levels also went down and my blood pressure normalized as well. Blood pressure was not high before but it would shoot high after not eating for a while, most likely due to adrenalin and cortisol. Now it is fairly stable.
Not sure what else I can add, but liver health seems to be crucial to handling sugar and I think it also affects thyroid. You can have a perfectly good thyroid producing T4 and if the live is not converting it into T3 then you have an issue no matter how much supplemental NDT you take. Also, with burdened liver the sugar you are loading up with hopes of converting more T4 into T3 will likely fatten up the liver instead. So, get liver working well and estrogen / sugar should not be an issue any more.

I understand you favour caffeine partly because of its astounding positive effects and partly because you've had problems with T3. Have you come across anything that points to T3 having a similar effect however?

I have problems with caffeine but not with T3.

The only thing I've found is a study done on mice that reversed NAFLD using T3:

To investigate whether T3 could also reverse fully established fatty liver, rats were fed a CMD diet for 10 wk and then cofed T3 for 1 wk. Coadministration of T3 resulted in a complete regression of liver steatosis associated with a decrease of lipid peroxidation, cyclooxygenase-2 expression, and activation of phospho-STAT3 and phospho-SAPK/JNK.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18434432

If you are producing enough T4 then I don't think it is justified to take thyroid supplement since the issue seems to be conversion into T3, which is almost entirely dependent on liver health and somewhat on muscle mass. So, if T3 makes you feel fine and your T4 is low then it's probably OK. But if your thyroid is making enough T4 I see no reason why you should inhibit it by taking T3. A thyroid that has been inhibited by taking T3 sometimes can take months to recover into producing normal amounts of T4 and while it is recovering TSH will likely become very high. On the other hand, I would not take pure T4 either since if liver is not converting it into T3 you are making the situation worse. I guess what I am saying is that there is a valid reason for supplementing with thyroid but if the issue lies somewhere else down the pathways like conversion of T4 into T3 then a person should focus on fixing that issue rather than loading up on T4/T3 combo just to make themselves feel better.

Haidut, I've been taking anywhere from 200mg to 800mg of caffeine recently, and I just got lab results back and my TSH is very high. So according to this post,it sounds like you would recommend abstaining from caffeine supplements? Can TSH be increased substantially in less then 6-8 weeks? I think that's how long I've been taking caffeine. I also stopped taking T3 the last couple weeks, so it sounds like maybe I did the opposite of what my body needs. Yikes.

 

[haidut]

post 110686

If you are producing enough T4 then I don't think it is justified to take thyroid supplement since the issue seems to be conversion into T3, which is almost entirely dependent on liver health and somewhat on muscle mass. So, if T3 makes you feel fine and your T4 is low then it's probably OK. But if your thyroid is making enough T4 I see no reason why you should inhibit it by taking T3. A thyroid that has been inhibited by taking T3 sometimes can take months to recover into producing normal amounts of T4 and while it is recovering TSH will likely become very high. On the other hand, I would not take pure T4 either since if liver is not converting it into T3 you are making the situation worse. I guess what I am saying is that there is a valid reason for supplementing with thyroid but if the issue lies somewhere else down the pathways like conversion of T4 into T3 then a person should focus on fixing that issue rather than loading up on T4/T3 combo just to make themselves feel better.

Why would the supplemental T3 to reach physiological levels be more inhibitory than the T3 converted naturally by the body with healthy liver?

Because it is T3 that is the real signal for the organism what your thyroid status is. And since we can't dose it perfectly, we are likely to overdose and this send the message that thyroid activity is high so thyroid stops producing the hormones. Thinks of it in terms of DHEAHT connection. The real androgen is DHT and any sudden change in it will affect powerfully LH/FSH and other gonadotropic signals. DHEA is the prohormone and while it binds to "receptors" itself it needs to be converted to more potent stuff to really affect the organism. DHEA is the T4 analog while DHT is the T3. The analogy is good IMO b/c just like T4 if you overdose T3 it will convert into rT3 and wreak havoc, similar to the estrogenic effects of overdosing DHEA.

 

[Agent207]

Thanks, I understand now. Just like if you overdose DHT or have very high DHT levels, DHEA would convert to estrogen, right?

 

[haidut]

post 113681 Thanks, I understand now. Just like if you overdose DHT or have very high DHT levels, DHEA would convert to estrogen, right?

No, it won't. Having high DHT will suppress LH/FSH b/c the body thinks you have more than enough androgens. DHT also blocks estrogen production and signaling. High T3 will similarly suppress TSH b/c the body thinks you have more than enough T3. T3 will also suppress conversion of T4 into rT3 and will direct it instead to converting into even more T3. Similarly, DHT will suppress the conversion of DHEA into estrogens and will direct it instead to converting into even more T/DHT ( up to a point).

 

[tca300]

post 68208

@ haidut - Thanks for all your input, I have learned a lot from your ideas!

Have you changed from the original protocol posted in favor of just K2 and caffeine tabs (for better overall liver / body fat removal)?

I found your statement fascinating that even if you are taking NDT but the liver is burdened, then this may not be the solution. It's planted a seed that this could be my case as I have been taking NDT for over a year, been eating well and still can't hold a decent temperature / pulse all day.

I think it was Such Saturation that posted about keeping warm with extra clothing with frequent doses of thyroid to bring up temps and then try hold them there. That is the only way I can stay warm through the day and it is rather tiring sitting at my desk in summer clothed like an Eskimo.

Perhaps It could be that some of us who try hard at this but are not quite there yet, are missing the benefits of healthy liver functions?

Also wanted to ask if you think low sunlight is ok if one uses a good daily D3 supplement?

I still take K2 but not any more in such high doses. I use EstroBan, and usually take 2 doses of that so my total intake of K2 is about 5mg daily. Vitamin D3 is about 2,000 IU daily and vitamin A is 10,000 - 15,000 IU daily. Vitamin E is 200IU - 400 IU daily.
In the winter I sit under my 6 lamps carrying 500W incandescent bulbs each. They are pointed at the wall but when I an in that room I feel like the sun is beaming at me from all directions.
In the summer, I do try to get my sunlight direct but make sure I take caffeine and some niacinamide before going outside to roast.
I don't use much caffeine right now aside from what I get from 2-3 cups of coffee. I stopped feeling the effects of larger dosages (800mg+) so I took that to mean the liver has flushed its fat. If you trust lab results, my liver enzymes are at the bottom 10% of the range, which the doctor claims is freaky even if it was found in a teenager. I am not sure how good that is, but the general consensus is the lower the enzymes the better, so I'd take it.
Liver and insulin sensitivity go hand in hand, so a good way to test liver function would be to do the glucose challenge test that is often done at doctor's offices. If you score well then your liver is probably fine.

So its not necessary to take a decent amount of caffeine everyday continually for all the other benefits? Just temporarily until you feel better? What about the increase in beneficial hormones and life extension etc?

 

[HealthisWealth]

This makes sense to me, for people producing enough T4. But if TSH is above 2, that probably means insufficient T4 production, right? So in this situation, thyroid supplement might make more sense than extra caffeine, which could lower T4 even further?

Last december maybe this is my mistake. For almost 3years im not taking any T4. And took coffee that made my TSH high. So im taking T4 again.

Can i add aspirin without K2? Im underweight need to gain pounds. Want to try asprin and niacinamide without the caffeine.

Current labs since starting taking T4 tabs (dec 28, 2015)

Feb 12, 2016 labs
T3 - 88 ( 80 - 220)
Free T3 - 2.09 (1.40 - 4.40)
T4 - 7.8 (5.0-13.0)
Free T4 - 1.22 (0.80-2.00)
TSH - 2.10 (0.32-5.00)
(RIA method)

T3(SI) - 1.35 ( 1.23 - 3.38)
T4 (SI) 100 (64 - 167)
(RIA method)

 

[tca300]

I asked Ray if caffeine or any other substance can replace a thyroid supplement, or make up for a lack of thyroid , and he said there is NO replacement for a thyroid supplement.

 

[Philomath]

I needed to lose weight and I thought that niacinamide and aspirin were hindering it. Now that I have lost the extra weight I do take aspirin as per Peat's recommendations (every couple of days or so).

I have a "few" extra pounds to lose as well. I've been taking aspirin pretty regularly and have not lost weight. @haidut what did you do to accomplish the weight loss without aspirin and niacinamide?