Caffeine Reverses Stress, Insulin Resistance, Hypertension

[Regina]

I have read through this thread again, since I am still having issues with caffeine stress response. Going to attempt the ~1,000mg daily range and push through the stress response with B1/B3/cypro/theanine/taurine. Using K2 ~10mg.

Been using 200-400mg caffeine daily for the past year and glycogen storage is still not optimal. So I suspect fibrosis issues over NAFLD, as also been doing PUFA depletion for 6 months (zero fat and zero starch).

Will try to update, week by week.

In your experiment, how about add inosine (I dump a gram onto a spoonful of ice cream), some OJ concentrate - along with the thiamine, et al. ?

 

[Milena]

Somewhere, I read, in study reported on this site (can't check, home PC broken) that caffeine does not heal liver issues but coffee does. What caffeine does do, though, is give an indication of the ability of the liver (and probably the muscles) to store glycogen - have low blood sugar after caffeine? - liver may needs some more healing.

 

[Orion]

In your experiment, how about add inosine (I dump a gram onto a spoonful of ice cream), some OJ concentrate - along with the thiamine, et al. ?

Thanks I will look into info and maybe get some inosine to experiment with.

Does the OJ concentrate bother your stomach(acidity)? I find AJ concentrate very acidic even with baking soda, will try OJ con next.

 

[Orion]

Somewhere, I read, in study reported on this site (can't check, home PC broken) that caffeine does not heal liver issues but coffee does. What caffeine does do, though, is give an indication of the ability of the liver (and probably the muscles) to store glycogen - have low blood sugar after caffeine? - liver may needs some more healing.

Probably best to stick with instant coffee to get all the added benefits, but getting up to 1,200mg is alot. I will probably aim for 600mg from instant and 600mg from pill form.

I think the studies that Haidut posted were using pure caffeine and got results though.

 

[Regina]

Thanks I will look into info and maybe get some inosine to experiment with.

Does the OJ concentrate bother your stomach(acidity)? I find AJ concentrate very acidic even with baking soda, will try OJ con next.

The OJ con does not bother my stomach (oddly enough). But several others have had trouble with it.

 

[beta pandemic]

watching thread

 

[Mateo Wiechers]

Caffeine raises progesterone, allopregnanolone and pregnenolone as shown in this study.
Caffeine Increases Pregnenolone & Progesterone In The Brain
All of these can cause sleepiness when elevated, especially progesterone. This is usually a sign that caffeine is working for you rather than triggering a stress response like before.

Hello, since 2 days ago i upped my caffeine intake to about 600-800 mg daily, in doses of 200 mg once every 3 hours but i got very sleepy, is that part of The healing process and Will subside over time? I like when caffeine is mildly stimulating rather than sedating.

 

[haidut]

Hello, since 2 days ago i upped my caffeine intake to about 600-800 mg daily, in doses of 200 mg once every 3 hours but i got very sleepy, is that part of The healing process and Will subside over time? I like when caffeine is mildly stimulating rather than sedating.

In higher doses it may be raising levels of some neurosteroids, which may cause sedation.
Caffeine Increases Pregnenolone & Progesterone In The Brain

I would stick to the lower doses (300mg-600mg daily) as those seem to have the stimulating effects.

 

[Mauritio]

I think the overall message of the studies on caffeine is this - if one can't handle a decent dose of caffeine (200mg - 400mg), taken with food if necessary, without getting a stress response then glycogen stores are poor. Ability to store glycogen is largely determined by liver function, and liver function is a good approximator of overall health. Poor liver function means high estrogen, poor PUFA detoxification, poor conversion of T4 into T3, etc. Most people over 30 have some form of NAFLD - i.e. fatty liver. I posted a study long time ago showing that as little as 2mg/kg human dose taken for 2 weeks restored proper liver fat metabolism and got the liver lean again. Here is that study.
Caffeine stimulates hepatic lipid metabolism by the autophagy-lysosomal pathway in mice. - PubMed - NCBI

So, maybe the "adaptation" the studies above found was simply this - improved liver function and ability to store glycogen. Btw, thyroid hormone also triggers a stress response in people with poor liver function. So, the effect of caffeine is not to somehow innately cause a stress reaction but simply to push a poorly functioning organism beyond its ability to handle energetic demands. As liver function improves (and how long it takes is unique to each person), so does the ability to handle caffeine.

I finally found the study you mentioned all over the forum !
Does the intraperitoneal injection translate 1:1 to oral supplementation ? Because this is how they did it in the mentioned study.
Haiduts 200mg dosage is a pretty generous or conservative guess ,probably to be on the safe side. For a normal 70kg person ,which I think might be the average of men+women the dosage is more towards 130 mg /day .So if you're 70kg, 150 mg daily is more than enough to clean the liver!

 

[haidut]

I finally found the study you mentioned all over the forum !
Does the intraperitoneal injection translate 1:1 to oral supplementation ? Because this is how they did it in the mentioned study.
Haiduts 200mg dosage is a pretty generous or conservative guess ,probably to be on the safe side. For a normal 70kg person ,which I think might be the average of men+women the dosage is more towards 130 mg /day .So if you're 70kg, 150 mg daily is more than enough to clean the liver!

My dosage estimate was a bit generous because, just as you guessed, slightly higher oral dose is needed to approximate an IP dose.

 

[Mauritio]

My dosage estimate was a bit generous because, just as you guessed, slightly higher oral dose is needed to approximate an IP dose.

oh okay, got it :)

 

[EvanHinkle]

I’d like to necromance this thread if I may. I’ve suspected liver problems for some time, but always figured, “meh, I drink tons of coffee, I should be fine.” Well, I was not “fine” and there was plenty of work to do on my liver.

Reading through @haidut’s work here and deciding to commit to a potential 4-6 day stress inducing period I embarked on 600mg of caffeine in day one, 800 on day two, 1000mg on day three and 1200mg on day four, (may drop back to 1000 tomorrow, kinda waiting to see how I feel in the next 24 hrs). I have experimented with most of the pro-metabolic substances/hormones, and run into the issues that seem to align with “liver problem” ie T4 not converting, poor response to DHEA, or progesterone, etc. caffeine, and my experience over the past four days has been borderline psychedelic. I ran into a stress response this AM, but remedied it quickly with milk honey and OJ. My plan is to ride this out for two weeks, and then test my response to caffeine at 600mg on an empty stomach. If I do not generate a stress response I will assume I have cleaned my liver.

Having taken mushrooms when I was younger I have had a few psychedelic experiences, and this has been remarkably similar. I now understand what Peat is saying about babies metabolism being so fast it’s like they’re on LSD, and why many of the anti-serotonin substances are derived from LSD. I used to block fast, (3-5 days a few times a year) and today, the feeling of hunger between 3pm when I ate, and 5:30 when I ate dinner was the most life altering overwhelming feeling of hunger I have ever experienced. I kid you not, after five days of starvation I did not have the hunger I had after two hours today.

This post is kind of rambling, but really what I’ve come to recognize is that the gap between where I am, and where I want to be is far larger than I perceived, and further, the gap between the average person’s poor eating habits, (be it PUFAs or under eating) is a chasm! The energy required to truly shift from maintenance to healing is incredibly gigantic. I feel as though the fuel necessary to appropriately use pro-metabolic substances for healing is a substantial amount, without which the best I can hope for is slowing decline.

I am very happy with the experience I’ve had trying this therapeutic dose of caffeine. The experience itself is just as valuable as the increased capacity for my liver.

 

[Vinny]

The energy required to truly shift from maintenance to healing is incredibly gigantic.

I`ve been thinking the same lately. I suspect that many conditions emerge from poor macros and/or inability to extract and/or utilize nutrients from the food taken.
I`m aware that it sounds too simplistic, though.

 

[EvanHinkle]

I`ve been thinking the same lately. I suspect that many conditions emerge from poor macros and/or inability to extract and/or utilize nutrients from the food taken.
I`m aware that it sounds too simplistic, though.

I think ultimately though you’re right. Poor digestion, incomplete diet, (macros or micros) depleting lifestyle choices, pro-metabolic substances not properly fueled, all these things and more contribute to such a lower “standard” of “life,” and do so over, (for many) such a long period of time so as to be imperceptible to the individual.

A child in perfect health has no concept of that health, and the 30-40 year olds who find themselves in decline from their 20s chalk it up to “aging” simply because we’re socialized to, until we don’t really remember what it felt like to be well anymore, and health becomes this fuzzy memory of something too long ago to be perceptible in the now.

 

[Mauritio]

I’d like to necromance this thread if I may. I’ve suspected liver problems for some time, but always figured, “meh, I drink tons of coffee, I should be fine.” Well, I was not “fine” and there was plenty of work to do on my liver.

Reading through @haidut’s work here and deciding to commit to a potential 4-6 day stress inducing period I embarked on 600mg of caffeine in day one, 800 on day two, 1000mg on day three and 1200mg on day four, (may drop back to 1000 tomorrow, kinda waiting to see how I feel in the next 24 hrs). I have experimented with most of the pro-metabolic substances/hormones, and run into the issues that seem to align with “liver problem” ie T4 not converting, poor response to DHEA, or progesterone, etc. caffeine, and my experience over the past four days has been borderline psychedelic. I ran into a stress response this AM, but remedied it quickly with milk honey and OJ. My plan is to ride this out for two weeks, and then test my response to caffeine at 600mg on an empty stomach. If I do not generate a stress response I will assume I have cleaned my liver.

Having taken mushrooms when I was younger I have had a few psychedelic experiences, and this has been remarkably similar. I now understand what Peat is saying about babies metabolism being so fast it’s like they’re on LSD, and why many of the anti-serotonin substances are derived from LSD. I used to block fast, (3-5 days a few times a year) and today, the feeling of hunger between 3pm when I ate, and 5:30 when I ate dinner was the most life altering overwhelming feeling of hunger I have ever experienced. I kid you not, after five days of starvation I did not have the hunger I had after two hours today.

This post is kind of rambling, but really what I’ve come to recognize is that the gap between where I am, and where I want to be is far larger than I perceived, and further, the gap between the average person’s poor eating habits, (be it PUFAs or under eating) is a chasm! The energy required to truly shift from maintenance to healing is incredibly gigantic. I feel as though the fuel necessary to appropriately use pro-metabolic substances for healing is a substantial amount, without which the best I can hope for is slowing decline.

I am very happy with the experience I’ve had trying this therapeutic dose of caffeine. The experience itself is just as valuable as the increased capacity for my liver.

Let us know how it goes.

I think its important to make sure you have decent liver function before going full peat.

So many things (like thyroid ) never worked for me at any dose until I improved my liver function.

I also couldn't tolerate caffeine and even forcing it on me for 2 weeks wouldnt really help me long term. I would go right back to were I were when stopping caffeine + adrenergic side effects.

I had it backwards: I had to get my liver lean in order to make caffeine work, not the other way around, unfortunately.
I think that's a problem many run into when starting the peat diet (whatever that is).


And believe me when I say I tried almost everything.
The only thing that worked for me was forcing my body to loose weight and shedd liver fat. That's not really healthy, but now I can tolerate thyroid , caffeine and many other things and it feels like I can finally make use of the pro-metabolic diet.

When you're liver isnt functioning well, throwing all kinds of pro-metabolic substances at it ,will only increase cortisol and weight. It took me 5 years to figure that out. And I had the leave the peaty ways behind for a while, but no I'm back.

 

[FitnessMike]

I think its important to make sure you have decent liver function before going full peat.

So many things (like thyroid ) never worked for me at any dose until I improved my liver function.

I also couldn't tolerate caffeine and even forcing it on me for 2 weeks wouldnt really help me long term. I would go right back to were I were when stopping caffeine + adrenergic side effects.

I had it backwards: I had to get my liver lean in order to make caffeine work, not the other way around, unfortunately.
I think that's a problem many run into when starting the peat diet (whatever that is).


And believe me when I say I tried almost everything.
The only thing that worked for me was forcing my body to loose weight and shedd liver fat. That's not really healthy, but now I can tolerate thyroid , caffeine and many other things and it feels like I can finally make use of the pro-metabolic diet.

When you're liver isnt functioning well, throwing all kinds of pro-metabolic substances at it ,will only increase cortisol and weight. It took me 5 years to figure that out. And I had the leave the peaty ways behind for a while, but no I'm back.

Thanks for sharing.

Were you severely hypometabolic at the beginning? if so, did you manage to completely fix your metabolism and tolerate as much thyroid hormones as needed?

 

[Vinny]

I think ultimately though you’re right. Poor digestion, incomplete diet, (macros or micros) depleting lifestyle choices, pro-metabolic substances not properly fueled, all these things and more contribute to such a lower “standard” of “life,” and do so over, (for many) such a long period of time so as to be imperceptible to the individual.

A child in perfect health has no concept of that health, and the 30-40 year olds who find themselves in decline from their 20s chalk it up to “aging” simply because we’re socialized to, until we don’t really remember what it felt like to be well anymore, and health becomes this fuzzy memory of something too long ago to be perceptible in the now.

 

[Vinny]

When you're liver isnt functioning well, throwing all kinds of pro-metabolic substances at it ,will only increase cortisol and weight. It took me 5 years to figure that out. And I had the leave the peaty ways behind for a while, but no I'm back.

I`ll keep that in mind.

 

[Mauritio]

Thanks for sharing.

Were you severely hypometabolic at the beginning? if so, did you manage to completely fix your metabolism and tolerate as much thyroid hormones as needed?

I wouldnt say severely, but I think I was running on adrenaline for many years.

Thats kind of a vague question, how would you define completely fixed?

No I'm slowly working my way up. I'm just doing T3 atm . I'm in the early stages of thyroid supps ,where I suppose there is a normalization of stress hormones. So my temperature is probably lower than before ,but I feel less adrenergic so I hope as I increase the dosage over time my temps will rise. I take a tiny dose of T3 still so others might be able to tolerate more faster.

 

[EvanHinkle]

Let us know how it goes.

I think its important to make sure you have decent liver function before going full peat.

So many things (like thyroid ) never worked for me at any dose until I improved my liver function.

I also couldn't tolerate caffeine and even forcing it on me for 2 weeks wouldnt really help me long term. I would go right back to were I were when stopping caffeine + adrenergic side effects.

I had it backwards: I had to get my liver lean in order to make caffeine work, not the other way around, unfortunately.
I think that's a problem many run into when starting the peat diet (whatever that is).


And believe me when I say I tried almost everything.
The only thing that worked for me was forcing my body to loose weight and shedd liver fat. That's not really healthy, but now I can tolerate thyroid , caffeine and many other things and it feels like I can finally make use of the pro-metabolic diet.

When you're liver isnt functioning well, throwing all kinds of pro-metabolic substances at it ,will only increase cortisol and weight. It took me 5 years to figure that out. And I had the leave the peaty ways behind for a while, but no I'm back.

Man, this rings so true. I often wonder if I had knowledge of Peat’s work when I used to do multi-day fasts, if coming back to food with a metabolic approach might have had better results. Instead I just starved myself and returned to PUFA and low carb…

I know I had better liver function at that time though, (because I could drink a lot… which is not the best way to test your liver function… ignorance was bliss?).