Caffeine Lowers Serotonin Levels Raised By Exercise (stress)

haidut

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As many of you know, TPH is the enzyme responsible for synthesizing serotonin from tryptophan. Inhibiting TPH leads to rapid decreases of the levels of serotonin. There is TPH1 (expressed in the brain) and TPH2 (expressed in peripheral tissues). Inhibiting TPH1 has been shown to ameliorate fatigue in humans due to reductions of serotonin levels in the brain. This is the so-called "central hypothesis of fatigue". Both TPH1 and TPH2 are induced/increased by stress, and TPH2 specifically contributes to obesity even though TPH1 is also involved. Thus, lowering the levels of both TPH1 and TPH2 is highly desirable from metabolic point of view.
This study shows that a relative low dose of caffeine inhibits exercise-induced TPH1 increase in the brain by 30% - 40%. This is big enough to explain the anti-fatigue effect of caffeine, especially during exercise (stress). Given that threadmill exercise is simply another form of stress, caffeine seems to be a good supplement to prevent the pro-serotonin effects of stress. This is consistent with the several studies I posted recently showing caffeine to reverse the mental impairment and mood deficits caused by chronic unpredictable stress (learned helplessness). So, the next time someone tells you that stress or serotonin is good for you show them these studies.
Human equivalent dose of caffeine was ~60mg before exercise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11445277

"...Treadmill exercise was shown to increase the average number of TPH-positive cells to 157.10 +/- 13.00 in the exercise-without-caffeine, and this number was decreased to 107.80 +/- 15.00 in the exercise-with-caffeine group, presumably by caffeine injection. Fig. 2 shows the pattern of expression of TPH in the median raphne. The average number of TPH-positive cells in the control-without-caffeine group was 26.67 +/- 2.00 and the figure was 24.67 +/- 1.80 in the control-with-caffeine group, while the figure was brought up to 68.86 +/- 2.60 in the exercise-with-out-caffeine group and 41.33 +/- 4.10 in the exercise-with-caffeine group. It was reported that the basal level of TPH mRNA in the median raphe nuclei is about half of that in the dorsal raphe nuclei [13]. The results of this study were consistent with the experiment. Under resting conditions, the number of TPH-positive cells was not significantly altered by caffeine injection in both the dorsal and the median raphe nuclei. Forced treadmill exercise increased TPH expression and caffeine administration suppressed the exercise-induced elevation in TPH expression."
 

Gl;itch.e

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Thanks Haidut. Very relevant to my interests.

What do you think about the dogma of "adrenal burnout" from "excess" caffeine intake that pervades exercise/weightloss culture? A lot of people insist that they get burnt out from using too much caffeine on their diet or exercise regime. I figure that its probably more the excessive stress of the exercise and/or the caloric deficit of the diet that's mostly to blame.

You yourself seem to have experimented with relatively large amounts of caffeine. Have you noticed any signs that would indicate your nervous system isn't working optimally or are experiencing "adrenal burnout"?
 
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haidut

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Gl;itch.e said:
https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/98110/ Thanks Haidut. Very relevant to my interests.

What do you think about the dogma of "adrenal burnout" from "excess" caffeine intake that pervades exercise/weightloss culture? A lot of people insist that they get burnt out from using too much caffeine on their diet or exercise regime. I figure that its probably more the excessive stress of the exercise and/or the caloric deficit of the diet that's mostly to blame.

You yourself seem to have experimented with relatively large amounts of caffeine. Have you noticed any signs that would indicate your nervous system isn't working optimally or are experiencing "adrenal burnout"?

I don't experience "adrenal burnout" from caffeine. This is probably due to the fact that I take it with a decent amount of sugar and magnesium in the form of orange juice. Most people that I know and report caffeine issues take it on an empty stomach, have poor glycogen stores or are otherwise running on stress hormones. As we discussed in another thread, the response to caffeine may be a good indication of liver function and if people are getting a stress response from even a small dose of caffeine this indicated poor glycogen stores, poor liver function and hypothyroidism in general.
 
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Gl;itch.e

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haidut said:
Gl;itch.e said:
https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/98110/ Thanks Haidut. Very relevant to my interests.

What do you think about the dogma of "adrenal burnout" from "excess" caffeine intake that pervades exercise/weightloss culture? A lot of people insist that they get burnt out from using too much caffeine on their diet or exercise regime. I figure that its probably more the excessive stress of the exercise and/or the caloric deficit of the diet that's mostly to blame.

You yourself seem to have experimented with relatively large amounts of caffeine. Have you noticed any signs that would indicate your nervous system isn't working optimally or are experiencing "adrenal burnout"?

I don't experience "adrenal burnout" from caffeine. This is probably due to the fact that I take it with a decent amount of sugar and magnesium in the form of orange juice. Most people that I know and report caffeine issues take it on an empty stomach, have poor glycogen stores or are otherwise running on stress hormones. As we discussed in another thread, the response to caffeine may be a good indication of liver function and if people are getting a stress response from even a small dose of caffeine this indicated poor glycogen stores, poor liver function and hypothyroidism in general.
Makes sense. I have done 400-600mg+ daily for a couple of months and experienced no signs of being run down or burnt out by it. Do you have a sweet spot where you feel best?
 
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Gl;itch.e said:
https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/98145/
haidut said:
Gl;itch.e said:
https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/98110/ Thanks Haidut. Very relevant to my interests.

What do you think about the dogma of "adrenal burnout" from "excess" caffeine intake that pervades exercise/weightloss culture? A lot of people insist that they get burnt out from using too much caffeine on their diet or exercise regime. I figure that its probably more the excessive stress of the exercise and/or the caloric deficit of the diet that's mostly to blame.

You yourself seem to have experimented with relatively large amounts of caffeine. Have you noticed any signs that would indicate your nervous system isn't working optimally or are experiencing "adrenal burnout"?

I don't experience "adrenal burnout" from caffeine. This is probably due to the fact that I take it with a decent amount of sugar and magnesium in the form of orange juice. Most people that I know and report caffeine issues take it on an empty stomach, have poor glycogen stores or are otherwise running on stress hormones. As we discussed in another thread, the response to caffeine may be a good indication of liver function and if people are getting a stress response from even a small dose of caffeine this indicated poor glycogen stores, poor liver function and hypothyroidism in general.
Makes sense. I have done 400-600mg+ daily for a couple of months and experienced no signs of being run down or burnt out by it. Do you have a sweet spot where you feel best?

I'd say up to 1g daily is probably my optimal spot. I am taking more right now as an experiment in its dopaminergic qualities. In doses of 1g+ daily I am pretty sure I get uncoupling effect, while in doses <1g daily I get mostly ergogenic effect and both of these findings match the studies.
 
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milk_lover

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haidut said:
This is probably due to the fact that I take it with a decent amount of sugar and magnesium in the form of orange juice.
This is interesting. Today I applied this when I drank my milk sugared coffee. Immediately, after I finished the coffee mug, I followed it with a cup of orange juice. For some reason, I felt better :cool: It could be a placebo effect or it could mean coffee is depleting my magnesium stores and/or lowering my blood sugar even when I put 4 tbsp of white sugar and the extra fructose from orange juice was needed.

haidut said:
Given that threadmill exercise is simply another form of stress, caffeine seems to be a good supplement to prevent the pro-serotonin effects of stress.

This gives me extra motivation to drink coffee after meat! 1) breaks down iron 2) prevents tryptophan found in the meat from converting to serotonin. How convenient! :mrgreen:
 

Peata

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haidut said:
I don't experience "adrenal burnout" from caffeine. This is probably due to the fact that I take it with a decent amount of sugar and magnesium in the form of orange juice. Most people that I know and report caffeine issues take it on an empty stomach, have poor glycogen stores or are otherwise running on stress hormones. As we discussed in another thread, the response to caffeine may be a good indication of liver function and if people are getting a stress response from even a small dose of caffeine this indicated poor glycogen stores, poor liver function and hypothyroidism in general.

What brand of OJ do you use?
 
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haidut

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Peata said:
https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/98215/
haidut said:
I don't experience "adrenal burnout" from caffeine. This is probably due to the fact that I take it with a decent amount of sugar and magnesium in the form of orange juice. Most people that I know and report caffeine issues take it on an empty stomach, have poor glycogen stores or are otherwise running on stress hormones. As we discussed in another thread, the response to caffeine may be a good indication of liver function and if people are getting a stress response from even a small dose of caffeine this indicated poor glycogen stores, poor liver function and hypothyroidism in general.

What brand of OJ do you use?

Whatever I have lying around in the office, which means not organic or squeezed. Cheap, generic stuff found in every grocery stores. Most likely from concentrate.
 
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Peata

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haidut said:
Whatever I have lying around in the office, which means not organic or squeezed. Cheap, generic stuff found in every grocery stores. Most likely from concentrate.

:thumbup:
 

Peata

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milk_lover said:
post 98208
haidut said:
This is probably due to the fact that I take it with a decent amount of sugar and magnesium in the form of orange juice.
This is interesting. Today I applied this when I drank my milk sugared coffee. Immediately, after I finished the coffee mug, I followed it with a cup of orange juice. For some reason, I felt better :cool: It could be a placebo effect or it could mean coffee is depleting my magnesium stores and/or lowering my blood sugar even when I put 4 tbsp of white sugar and the extra fructose from orange juice was needed.

haidut said:
Given that threadmill exercise is simply another form of stress, caffeine seems to be a good supplement to prevent the pro-serotonin effects of stress.

This gives me extra motivation to drink coffee after meat! 1) breaks down iron 2) prevents tryptophan found in the meat from converting to serotonin. How convenient! :mrgreen:

So if you didn't have glycine or gelatine handy, coffee could serve the same purpose as they do. That IS convenient.
 
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milk_lover

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Peata said:
post 99010 So if you didn't have glycine or gelatine handy, coffee could serve the same purpose as they do. That IS convenient.
and yet I see many people on this forum talk negatively about coffee consumption. Maybe they should consume it only under the right circumstances, i.e., not on an empty stomach, with a lot of sugar and milk, after a rich satisfying meal etc., Only then will they avoid the bad reaction of coffee and get the benefits.
 
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BastiFuntasty

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Do you think it is stressfree to consume a cup of coffee on an empty stomach with about 25g of sugar +gelatine and cocofat? I have a hard time realising what's good and what's bad to my body.
 
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haidut

haidut

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BastiFuntasty said:
post 102535 Do you think it is stressfree to consume a cup of coffee on an empty stomach with about 25g of sugar +gelatine and cocofat? I have a hard time realising what's good and what's bad to my body.

The effects of caffeine will largely depend on the health of your liver. Some people with poor liver function get nervous/shaky from even a small cup of coffee even when taken with sugar. I'd say what you mention is good to try, and you can always raise the dose if it does not affect you.
 
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hclh

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There are people who can handle caffeine better than other, not only due to general liver ststus, but also due to genetics/cytochrome 450 polymorphisms
 

schultz

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There are people who can handle caffeine better than other, not only due to general liver ststus, but also due to genetics/cytochrome 450 polymorphisms

Epigenetics to the rescue! :pillowfight
 

lindsay

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I don't experience "adrenal burnout" from caffeine. This is probably due to the fact that I take it with a decent amount of sugar and magnesium in the form of orange juice. Most people that I know and report caffeine issues take it on an empty stomach, have poor glycogen stores or are otherwise running on stress hormones. As we discussed in another thread, the response to caffeine may be a good indication of liver function and if people are getting a stress response from even a small dose of caffeine this indicated poor glycogen stores, poor liver function and hypothyroidism in general.

What would you say is a zero response to caffeine? Meaning, I can drink caffeine all day long (empty stomach or not) and feel pretty much nothing from it, other than slight happiness and energy...... I certainly don't get the adrenal stimulation most people speak of - but I usually drink caffeine in the form of espresso and/or cold brew and with a lot of cream and salted sugar syrup. I've also noticed that I really like energy drinks - High Ball are my new favorite, as they are made with organic juice and sugar and contain niacinamide, vitamins B6 & B12, and ginseng, caffeine and guarana. Plus they are carbonated, which is an extra bonus.

Actually, I've noticed with coffee that the "energy" I get is a delayed effect. Usually, I want to take a nap immediately after drinking an espresso. And then an hour or two later, I feel quite energized. When I drink the energy drinks, the B vitamins and other things seem to kick in immediately and the effects last a few hours.
 
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haidut

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What would you say is a zero response to caffeine? Meaning, I can drink caffeine all day long (empty stomach or not) and feel pretty much nothing from it, other than slight happiness and energy...... I certainly don't get the adrenal stimulation most people speak of - but I usually drink caffeine in the form of espresso and/or cold brew and with a lot of cream and salted sugar syrup. I've also noticed that I really like energy drinks - High Ball are my new favorite, as they are made with organic juice and sugar and contain niacinamide, vitamins B6 & B12, and ginseng, caffeine and guarana. Plus they are carbonated, which is an extra bonus.

Actually, I've noticed with coffee that the "energy" I get is a delayed effect. Usually, I want to take a nap immediately after drinking an espresso. And then an hour or two later, I feel quite energized. When I drink the energy drinks, the B vitamins and other things seem to kick in immediately and the effects last a few hours.

I guess a zero response would be no increase in temps and pulse, both of which caffeine is supposed to be pretty effective at raising.
 

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