Help Needed: Overcoming Sky-High Stress Hormones W/out Pro-Metabolic Supps

[Wagner83]

(preferably from something other than OJ, since it can cause mucus, which can affect your workout).

Do you have any references for that? I know dairy can be mucogenic but it's the first time I hear that about OJ.

 

[Arctic Fire]

The important indicators to look for are heavy breathing and light-headedness. Once you reach this point, you've gone too far, pushed to hard, too fast in your workout. You also lose out on the beneficial aspects of exercise. Breathless exercise, as Peat says, is problematic. it stimulates excessive amounts of stress hormones, and serotonin/prolactin. You can train your body efficiently without getting out of breath. If you look up the maffetone method, which Peat has promoted in the past, it makes this case very well. Dr. Maffetone is an expert in training endurance athletes gradually without stressing them out. The key is to not get to the point where you need to breath through your mouth during endurance training.

Thanks, all good advice. I'll look up Maffetone. I've told him not to get out of breath.

One glaring issue of concern is that if he can't go on a brisk walk without feeling excessive amounts of stress, then that is serious. I would consult with a medical doctor to look into the issue further.

He typically feels fine while walking (at least at a moderate pace) and often does not start feeling stressed until later -- sometimes 20-30 minutes, sometimes hours.

The doctors have not seen signs of heart disease or RBC/WBC problems.

But the other thing is, if he does turn out to be otherwise "healthy" from an MD's perspective, then I would say that he potentially needs to suck it up and realize that in the beginning, any exercise program is going to suck. One's work capacity is so low, that he experiences high adrenaline/cortisol to anything, potentially even walking. This doesn't mean that there's something wrong with him or that he should avoid exercise. Quite the opposite, he needs to gradually build up to the point where he can handle more work over time

Agree completely. We'll continue to work on (gently) increasing his activity level.

Ultimately, though, progress on this front will be much faster and more sustainable if we can find ways to reduce his high adrenaline and (probably) lactate. This is the reason your suggestions about reducing screen time, adjusting macros, and keeping warm, etc. are so important. For a while, vitamins B1 and B7 worked quite well at reducing shortness of breath and dampening the stress response. Not surprisingly, he could be much more active when they were working.

 

[stevrd]

Do you have any references for that? I know dairy can be mucogenic but it's the first time I hear that about OJ.

Maybe "mucus" is not the best choice of words. For me, when I've tried OJ while working out, it would form an unpleasant thickness in my mouth for a period of time, making it difficult to breath correctly. I did notice, however, that when I used my homemade fresh squeezed OJ, this would not happen. It only happened with store-bought, even organic fresh squeezed OJ. I think when you can control the amount of fiber by straining it, you can mitigate the "mucus-like" effect.

 

[Arctic Fire]

Many thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread. It's a real boost to see so many helpful ideas and experiments to try.

It seems significant that for several weeks, B1 and biotin greatly reduced my relative's stress response to activity/exercise/meals, eliminated shortness of breath, and even appeared to lower his adrenaline. Other pro-metabolic supps (thyroid, pregnenolone, progesterone, moderate/large doses of aspirin, etc.) all make his adrenaline much worse.

B1 and B7 likely lowered lactate and increased CO2. But why did they lose effectiveness? For example, could he be deficient in a co-factor of B1/B7? Does the (temporary) success of B1 and B7 give any clues about what else we should try?

Any thoughts will be appreciated.

@stevrd, @Vinero, @haidut, @aguilaroja

 

[tara]

Very good idea. He claims not to breathe through his mouth but isn't sure about mouth-breathing at night, so taping is definitely a worthwhile experiment.

For me, the low hanging fruit with breathing was getting my mouth shut at night as well as daytime, and restoring diaphragmatic breathing.
I've used both tape and chinstrap to keep my mouth shut ant night, and either were helpful till I got it retrained.
Along with a bit of attention to relaxing thoracic muscles, a couple of sessions with a belt around my chest was enough to reactivate diaphragmatic breathing.
I also had to be eating enough carbs and enough alkaline minerals to support better breathing (it's still not great by a long way, but better than when I started tackling it).
Being rigorous about keeping the mouth shut while walking might make the difference between the exercise causing more stress or more improvement afterwards.
Key reasons why it's important, is that chronic hyperventilation lowers CO2 too much. Appropriate CO2 is needed to get oxygen from the blood to release to the tissues. I think it also helps nerves and blood vessels relax and function well, keep circulation going to the digestive system, and various other important functions.

Niacinamide, like aspirin, is still too stimulating for him to take except in very low doses.

Very low doses could be enough to be useful. Not sure what you mean by that, but I'sd expect 50-100mg to make a significant difference. If this is too much, then maybe starting at 20-30mg doses with every meal might be worth trying. Some of the B-vits seem to be usefully dosed small and frequent.

 

[Arctic Fire]

For me, the low hanging fruit with breathing was getting my mouth shut at night as well as daytime, and restoring diaphragmatic breathing.
I've used both tape and chinstrap to keep my mouth shut ant night, and either were helpful till I got it retrained.
Along with a bit of attention to relaxing thoracic muscles, a couple of sessions with a belt around my chest was enough to reactivate diaphragmatic breathing.

Thank you. Could you elaborate on (or provide a link describing) what you did to relax the thoracic muscles and how you used the belt?

Very low doses could be enough to be useful. Not sure what you mean by that, but I'sd expect 50-100mg to make a significant difference. If this is too much, then maybe starting at 20-30mg doses with every meal might be worth trying. Some of the B-vits seem to be usefully dosed small and frequent.

Good points. We mostly gave up on B3 and aspirin when it became clear that he couldn't handle much of them without raising adrenaline. But it's possible that if we're patient, he'll benefit from the low doses you mention, and perhaps even build tolerance for higher doses. Worth trying.

 

[tara]

Thank you. Could you elaborate on (or provide a link describing) what you did to relax the thoracic muscles and how you used the belt?

Not sure if I followed this to the letter, but here is Artour Rakhimov's advice:
https://www.normalbreathing.com/learn-8-diaphragmatic-breathing.php

 

[Arctic Fire]

Not sure if I followed this to the letter, but here is Artour Rakhimov's advice:
https://www.normalbreathing.com/learn-8-diaphragmatic-breathing.php

Great, thanks.

 

[aguilaroja]

Many thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread. It's a real boost to see so many helpful ideas and experiments to try.

It seems significant that for several weeks, B1 and biotin greatly reduced my relative's stress response to activity/exercise/meals, eliminated shortness of breath, and even appeared to lower his adrenaline. Other pro-metabolic supps (thyroid, pregnenolone, progesterone, moderate/large doses of aspirin, etc.) all make his adrenaline much worse.
...Does the (temporary) success of B1 and B7 give any clues about what else we should try?

Queries about individual situations via the forum are tricky to field as the described context is always brief.

There is a tendency in the forum to describe one sign or symptom as the sure result of a single cause. Most single symptoms can have many possible causes, often at different “extremes”. For instance, a rapid heart rate may result from high adrenaline/norepinephrine, but an improved metabolism, as in swiftly restored thyroid function, may also increase heart rate.

The suggestion here would be to look for simple, safe measures and use the feedback of clear, not so-so, results. In high adrenaline states, there is often vasoconstriction of the peripheries. So, for the night, for instance, warm socks or an old-fashioned hot water bottle may keep the feet warmer, even if the torso is reasonably warm.

If gelatin is being used and is digested comfortably, experiment if not already done with taking more of the total daily gelatin later in the day, to see if the glycine/proline soothing effects assist with supportive sleep.

High serotonin effects tend to prolong anxious, agitated, and blunted function. Relieving social isolation will tend to lower serotonin. Low threshold hanging out in a public space, like a coffee shop or library, is one way to get human company, if community access is difficult. As many forum posts discuss, the bulk of serotonin supply is in the gut. Gut supportive measures beyond carrot fiber, like mushroom fiber, activated charcoal, cascara/emodin, may lower noticeably serotonin burden.

 

[Arctic Fire]

Thanks very much for your thoughtful reply, @aguilaroja.

The suggestion here would be to look for simple, safe measures and use the feedback of clear, not so-so, results.

Those heuristics sound good to me -- Taleb meets Peat. And speaking of heuristics, Ray Peat's could be a rich topic for discussion.

In high adrenaline states, there is often vasoconstriction of the peripheries. So, for the night, for instance, warm socks or an old-fashioned hot water bottle may keep the feet warmer, even if the torso is reasonably warm.

If gelatin is being used and is digested comfortably, experiment if not already done with taking more of the total daily gelatin later in the day, to see if the glycine/proline soothing effects assist with supportive sleep.

High serotonin effects tend to prolong anxious, agitated, and blunted function. Relieving social isolation will tend to lower serotonin. Low threshold hanging out in a public space, like a coffee shop or library, is one way to get human company, if community access is difficult. As many forum posts discuss, the bulk of serotonin supply is in the gut. Gut supportive measures beyond carrot fiber, like mushroom fiber, activated charcoal, cascara/emodin, may lower noticeably serotonin burden.

All very helpful suggestions. Again, many thanks.

 

[nad]

. For instance, a rapid heart rate may result from high adrenaline/norepinephrine, but an improved metabolism, as in swiftly restored thyroid function, may also increase heart rate.[QUOTE
.

 

[nad]

Yes, I always know the difference - the rapid heart rate result from high adrenaline will bothering me, I just CAN ''feel'' it, it's uncomfortable, scary etc.
Increased heart rate from restored thyroid function and improved metabolism you probably not even notice unless you measured it.
Just feeling good.