Vitamin B3 Blocks FFA Elevation Caused By Caffeine

haidut

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Even though it is a logical finding knowing how niacinamide works, I still wanted to post this since it is one of the few studies looking at the combined effects of Peat substances like niacinamide and caffeine. I guess for simplicity you can assume that taking as much niacinamide as caffeine (in mg) will be enough to block the FFA elevating effects of caffeine.

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/1 ... 8.abstract

"...When caffeinesodium bensoate plus nicotinic acid was given concomitantly, the FFA-lowering effect of nicotinic acid prevailed. However, maximum lowering of FFA levels did not appear during the first hour. These findings were believed to be of interest in two respects. 1) Nicotinic acid was able to completely abolish caffeine-induced rises in FFA; caffeine, in turn, seemed to attenuate, but could not prevent, the FFA-lowering effect of nicotinic acid 2) By increasing the doses of nicotinic acid administered, rebound of FFA above base-line values, reported by others, could be abolished for at least four hours. It is thus conceivable that FFA rebound can be completely blocked by administering appropriate doses of nicotinic acid at adequately spaced intervals."
 

RPDiciple

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Does mean we can also use B3 when eating meals that contain "more" fat or higher fat intake and also that contains sugar that it will block fat oxidation from the high fat meal and that it hinders the randle cycle to use fat oxidation?
 

haidut

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RPDiciple said:
post 98394 Does mean we can also use B3 when eating meals that contain "more" fat or higher fat intake and also that contains sugar that it will block fat oxidation from the high fat meal and that it hinders the randle cycle to use fat oxidation?

Well, isn't this what Ray said about niacinamide in all of his articles? I am only listing this study b/c caffeine is known to trigger lipolysis in high doses, so it would be nice to have something to counteract it.
 
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RPDiciple

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haidut said:
post 98399
RPDiciple said:
post 98394 Does mean we can also use B3 when eating meals that contain "more" fat or higher fat intake and also that contains sugar that it will block fat oxidation from the high fat meal and that it hinders the randle cycle to use fat oxidation?

Well, isn't this what Ray said about niacinamide in all of his articles? I am only listing this study b/c caffeine is known to trigger lipolysis in high doses, so it would be nice to have something to counteract it.


Get you, but what then happends when the fat you eat in that meal? right to storage instead of beeing burn? or im not sure why its best ?
 
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haidut

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RPDiciple said:
post 98424
haidut said:
post 98399
RPDiciple said:
post 98394 Does mean we can also use B3 when eating meals that contain "more" fat or higher fat intake and also that contains sugar that it will block fat oxidation from the high fat meal and that it hinders the randle cycle to use fat oxidation?

Well, isn't this what Ray said about niacinamide in all of his articles? I am only listing this study b/c caffeine is known to trigger lipolysis in high doses, so it would be nice to have something to counteract it.


Get you, but what then happends when the fat you eat in that meal? right to storage instead of beeing burn? or im not sure why its best ?

Yes, right to storage if it is PUFA. Saturated fat gets preferentially burned. Niacinamide does not inhibit fat oxidation AFAIK, only lipolysis (i.e. breakdown of already stored fat).
 
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narouz

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Dang.
I was just getting set to do your caffeine liver blow-out, haidut,
for fatty liver--
while avoiding niacinamide and aspirin.

Now I know I'm gonna Feel (or more likely Imagine) the pufa pouring into my system when I take the caffeine....
:cry:
 

haidut

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narouz said:
post 98428 Dang.
I was just getting set to do your caffeine liver blow-out, haidut,
for fatty liver--
while avoiding niacinamide and aspirin.

Now I know I'm gonna Feel (or more likely Imagine) the pufa pouring into my system when I take the caffeine....
:cry:

Actually, it seems that fat in the blood stream is mostly from the liver that caffeine is cleaning out. Chronically consumed caffeine (i.e. 2 weeks) actually lowers adrenaline, blood pressure, insulin, FFA, etc. I will post a separate thread on that today. After the first few days caffeine seems to be mostly energizing without liberating FFA.
 
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narouz

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haidut said:
post 98439
narouz said:
post 98428 Dang.
I was just getting set to do your caffeine liver blow-out, haidut,
for fatty liver--
while avoiding niacinamide and aspirin.

Now I know I'm gonna Feel (or more likely Imagine) the pufa pouring into my system when I take the caffeine....
:cry:

Actually, it seems that fat in the blood stream is mostly from the liver that caffeine is cleaning out. Chronically consumed caffeine (i.e. 2 weeks) actually lowers adrenaline, blood pressure, insulin, FFA, etc. I will post a separate thread on that today. After the first few days caffeine seems to be mostly energizing without liberating FFA.

I hope I don't have a whole lot of PUFA left to be liberated.
It's been over 3 years of avoiding it pretty strictly.
Now I guess I have to start worrying about f**king oleic acid
in the butter I've been eating! :lol:

But if one has fatty liver...and even if one has been avoiding PUFA for years...
I wonder if the fat in fatty liver is still gonna be PUFA, somehow?
Worse, maybe PUFA with iron in it...the dreaded "yellow fat" lipofuscum!?
 
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haidut

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narouz said:
post 98443
haidut said:
post 98439
narouz said:
post 98428 Dang.
I was just getting set to do your caffeine liver blow-out, haidut,
for fatty liver--
while avoiding niacinamide and aspirin.

Now I know I'm gonna Feel (or more likely Imagine) the pufa pouring into my system when I take the caffeine....
:cry:

Actually, it seems that fat in the blood stream is mostly from the liver that caffeine is cleaning out. Chronically consumed caffeine (i.e. 2 weeks) actually lowers adrenaline, blood pressure, insulin, FFA, etc. I will post a separate thread on that today. After the first few days caffeine seems to be mostly energizing without liberating FFA.

I hope I don't have a whole lot of PUFA left to be liberated.
It's been over 3 years of avoiding it pretty strictly.
Now I guess I have to start worrying about f**king oleic acid
in the butter I've been eating! :lol:

But if one has fatty liver...and even if one has been avoiding PUFA for years...
I wonder if the fat in fatty liver is still gonna be PUFA, somehow?
Worse, maybe PUFA with iron in it...the dreaded "yellow fat" lipofuscum!?

I would not worry too much about this. Just take caffeine and stick with it for 2 weeks. Here is the new thread on that:
viewtopic.php?f=123&t=7729
 
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paymanz

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haidut have you read about rebound of plasma free fatty acid level after initial fall with niacinamide use?
 

haidut

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paymanz said:
post 104302 haidut have you read about rebound of plasma free fatty acid level after initial fall with niacinamide use?

Not really. Do you have some references?
 
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paymanz

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haidut said:
post 104309
paymanz said:
post 104302 haidut have you read about rebound of plasma free fatty acid level after initial fall with niacinamide use?

Not really. Do you have some references?
here is one of them http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3307657/
" However, although niacin initially reduces plasma FFA concentrations, this reduction is actually followed by a rebound within 1 to 9 h postdose, depending on the formulation used, and long-term treatment with niacin is associated with increases in plasma FFA, glucose, and insulin resistance"
 
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What-a-Riot

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Careful to distinguish nicotinic acid from niacinamide. Niacin generally, and in this case, refers to nicotinic acid
 

jb116

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Yes. And the test mentioned "flushing." Sounds like they used strictly niacin and not the -amide
 

answersfound

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narouz said:
post 98428 Dang.
I was just getting set to do your caffeine liver blow-out, haidut,
for fatty liver--
while avoiding niacinamide and aspirin.

Now I know I'm gonna Feel (or more likely Imagine) the pufa pouring into my system when I take the caffeine....
:cry:

Why were you avoiding niacinamide and aspirin...,what about people who use niacinamide to tolerate caffeine?
 
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NathanK

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haidut said:
post 104309
paymanz said:
post 104302 haidut have you read about rebound of plasma free fatty acid level after initial fall with niacinamide use?

Not really. Do you have some references?
Been trying to find this answer for a while and would be curious about aspirin and biotin, but niacinamide does NOT have any FFA rebound effect.
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/03/niacin-b3-glucose-management-part-v-of.html
Unlike ET and "flush" niacin, nicotinamide does not interact with the GPR109A receptor (Soga. 2003; Tunaru. 2003; Wise. 2003) and will thus neither produce free fatty acid rebounds nor will it raise your HDL, adiponectin and leptin levels (Westphal. 2006 & 2007; see Figure 5).

Here's the study. If someone can get the full text I'd appreciate it: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 8-0S77.pdf

The FFA rebound would explain the lowered insulin sensitivity of high dose niacin: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17996241
 
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haidut

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NathanK said:
post 114013
haidut said:
post 104309
paymanz said:
post 104302 haidut have you read about rebound of plasma free fatty acid level after initial fall with niacinamide use?

Not really. Do you have some references?
Been trying to find this answer for a while and would be curious about aspirin and biotin, but niacinamide does NOT have any FFA rebound effect.
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/03/niacin-b3-glucose-management-part-v-of.html
Unlike ET and "flush" niacin, nicotinamide does not interact with the GPR109A receptor (Soga. 2003; Tunaru. 2003; Wise. 2003) and will thus neither produce free fatty acid rebounds nor will it raise your HDL, adiponectin and leptin levels (Westphal. 2006 & 2007; see Figure 5).

Here's the study. If someone can get the full text I'd appreciate it: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 8-0S77.pdf

The FFA rebound would explain the lowered insulin sensitivity of high dose niacin: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17996241

That is a great find for also another reason - it explains why niacin raises HDL. Given the flush of FFA, most of which are likely PUFA, niacin caused in the bloodstream makes the liver produce this extra HDL to carry the poison to the liver for excretion. This is also probably why niacin can paradoxically fatten up your liver (as it is well known to do in high doses) since it makes the liver absorb a LOT of that liberated fat and it is mostly PUFA.
So, once again, HDL is more of a "bad" biomarker when elevated meaning you are struggling with toxin of some sort. However, not producing enough can also be an issue since it means you cannot detoxify. Maybe that is why HDL by itself is not a very good predictor of CVD and metabolic health.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-density_lipoprotein
"... Unlike the larger lipoprotein particles which deliver fat molecules to cells, HDL particles remove fat molecules from cells which want to export fat molecules. The fats carried include cholesterol, phospholipids, and triglycerides; amounts of each quite variable."
"...HDL particles (though vastly different from just cholesterol and other fat molecules per-se) are sometimes referred to as good cholesterol because they can transport fat molecules (including cholesterol, triglycerides, etc.) out of artery walls, reduce macrophage accumulation, and thus help prevent, even regress atherosclerosis over weeks, years, decades, thereby helping prevent cardiovascular disease, stroke(s) and other vascular disease complications body wide. In contrast, LDL particles (also far different from cholesterol per-se) are often called bad cholesterol or unhealthy cholesterol, because they deliver fat molecules to macrophages in the wall of arteries.[5] However, studies have shown that HDL lacking mice still have the ability to transport cholesterol to bile, suggesting that there are alternative mechanisms for cholesterol removal.[2] In addition to this another research group showed that transgenic mice retain the ability to metabolize bile and form gallstones in the absence of HDL.[3] This may also suggest that HDL is not as 'good' as popular belief claims."
 
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NathanK

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haidut said:
post 114092
NathanK said:
post 114013
haidut said:
post 104309
paymanz said:
post 104302 haidut have you read about rebound of plasma free fatty acid level after initial fall with niacinamide use?

Not really. Do you have some references?
Been trying to find this answer for a while and would be curious about aspirin and biotin, but niacinamide does NOT have any FFA rebound effect.
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/03/niacin-b3-glucose-management-part-v-of.html
Unlike ET and "flush" niacin, nicotinamide does not interact with the GPR109A receptor (Soga. 2003; Tunaru. 2003; Wise. 2003) and will thus neither produce free fatty acid rebounds nor will it raise your HDL, adiponectin and leptin levels (Westphal. 2006 & 2007; see Figure 5).

Here's the study. If someone can get the full text I'd appreciate it: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 8-0S77.pdf

The FFA rebound would explain the lowered insulin sensitivity of high dose niacin: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17996241

That is a great find for also another reason - it explains why niacin raises HDL. Given the flush of FFA, most of which are likely PUFA, niacin caused in the bloodstream makes the liver produce this extra HDL to carry the poison to the liver for excretion. This is also probably why niacin can paradoxically fatten up your liver (as it is well known to do in high doses) since it makes the liver absorb a LOT of that liberated fat and it is mostly PUFA.
So, once again, HDL is more of a "bad" biomarker when elevated meaning you are struggling with toxin of some sort. However, not producing enough can also be an issue since it means you cannot detoxify. Maybe that is why HDL by itself is not a very good predictor of CVD and metabolic health.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-density_lipoprotein
"... Unlike the larger lipoprotein particles which deliver fat molecules to cells, HDL particles remove fat molecules from cells which want to export fat molecules. The fats carried include cholesterol, phospholipids, and triglycerides; amounts of each quite variable."
"...HDL particles (though vastly different from just cholesterol and other fat molecules per-se) are sometimes referred to as good cholesterol because they can transport fat molecules (including cholesterol, triglycerides, etc.) out of artery walls, reduce macrophage accumulation, and thus help prevent, even regress atherosclerosis over weeks, years, decades, thereby helping prevent cardiovascular disease, stroke(s) and other vascular disease complications body wide. In contrast, LDL particles (also far different from cholesterol per-se) are often called bad cholesterol or unhealthy cholesterol, because they deliver fat molecules to macrophages in the wall of arteries.[5] However, studies have shown that HDL lacking mice still have the ability to transport cholesterol to bile, suggesting that there are alternative mechanisms for cholesterol removal.[2] In addition to this another research group showed that transgenic mice retain the ability to metabolize bile and form gallstones in the absence of HDL.[3] This may also suggest that HDL is not as 'good' as popular belief claims."
Please share if you get a copy of the study. Looks really informative.

It's funny how fish oil, niacin, and exercise are about the only things I can think of that are supposed to raise HDL....

It's good to know what "receptors" are associated with the FFA rebound. Means it probably be traced in other FFA lowering substances though it sounds isolated to niacin.

What are your thoughts on the possible mechanism that causes niacinamide to increase glucose tolerance while increasing triglycerides? Increases storage in the muscles/liver and the production of glycerols to "occupy" the excess FFA that can't be stored?
 
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