Help Needed: Overcoming Sky-High Stress Hormones W/out Pro-Metabolic Supps

[Vinero]

Also, not drinking liquids while eating can prevent the disruption of stomach acids needed to breakdown solid foods.

What about drinking milk or coffee with a meal?
milk is actually a food itself and coffee has been shown to stimulate digestive enzymes:
Caffeine Increases Both Gastric Acid And Pepsin Levels

 

[stevrd]

What about drinking milk or coffee with a meal?
milk is actually a food itself and coffee has been shown to stimulate digestive enzymes:
Caffeine Increases Both Gastric Acid And Pepsin Levels

I think it's a good idea to do if you can tolerate it. I drink milk after meals, usually 1-2 cups. But when I had digestive issues, I had to eat my meals without liquids as I would get an upset stomach/gas/bloating. I've seen some evidence to suggest that diluting hydrochloric acid can interfere with digestion. It's not that it changes the pH much, but it can change the speed at which food is broken down due to dilution. If you are using liquids to "cheat" chewing, then your stomach needs to do more work to digest. Digesting solid foods is important in and of itself, due to thermogenesis, as well as perceived satiety, lowering stress hormones. But causing more digestion than necessary by not chewing thoroughly can impede the stomach's ability to digest completely, especially in those susceptible.

 

[Vinero]

I think it's a good idea to do if you can tolerate it. I drink milk after meals, usually 1-2 cups. But when I had digestive issues, I had to eat my meals without liquids as I would get an upset stomach/gas/bloating. I've seen some evidence to suggest that diluting hydrochloric acid can interfere with digestion. It's not that it changes the pH much, but it can change the speed at which food is broken down due to dilution. If you are using liquids to "cheat" chewing, then your stomach needs to do more work to digest. Digesting solid foods is important in and of itself, due to thermogenesis, as well as perceived satiety, lowering stress hormones. But causing more digestion than necessary by not chewing thoroughly can impede the stomach's ability to digest completely, especially in those susceptible.[/QUOTE
.

I agree, when I was getting most of my calories from fruit juice and milk, I was cold a lot of the time and felt quite off.
I think everyone should eat at least 2 big solid meals a day consisting of well-cooked starch, animal protein and saturated fat.
Only drink when thirsty. That should be enough to increase heat production, digestion, thyroid production etc.​

 

[Arctic Fire]

@stevrd:

Thanks for your reply. Agree about preparation and hypothyroidism potentially reducing tolerance for starches. In my relative's case, (2) is at least part of the explanation. His metabolism has definitely plummeted over the last few months.

So the real question shouldn't be how little calories should I be eating to lose weight, it should be "what type of foods and what ratios of macros should I eat so that I have enough energy to exercise without inducing a stress response?"

This quote ^^ expresses the point about macros very well. Bad stress responses, triggered by ever-lower amounts of activity, have turned my relative from active to practically immobile. If increasing fat intake can dampen those stress responses enough for him to resume some activity, it's well worth trying.

 

[stevrd]

@stevrd:

Thanks for your reply. Agree about preparation and hypothyroidism potentially reducing tolerance for starches. In my relative's case, (2) is at least part of the explanation. His metabolism has definitely plummeted over the last few months.



This quote ^^ expresses the point about macros very well. Bad stress responses, triggered by ever-lower amounts of activity, have turned my relative from active to practically immobile. If increasing fat intake can dampen those stress responses enough for him to resume some activity, it's well worth trying.

It sure is worth trying. And it sure can decrease the stress response. Not to sound like Matt Stone, but sugar, starch, salt, and saturated fat seem to all have very fast anti-cortisol properties and have research to back it. Like many people who follow Peat, for a while I was on the low-exercise bandwagon. Then when I would try exercising, I would be completely out of breath and the CNS fatigue, and subsequent stress response I would experience would last for a whole week. Then after a while, and lots of reading good research in exercise science, I realized I was simply out of shape and that some regular exercise is necessary for health purposes and is a hormetic stress.

In other words, I don't think that it is a good idea (in the name of health) to avoid exercise. The thing about it is, exercising in a way that does not produce much lactate (not getting out of breath) will produce a multitude of health benefits that some researchers and doctors have concluded to be more powerful than any drug on earth (increasing the number of mitochondria, better stress tolerance, chemo-like action on cancer cells, improved glucose tolerance/insulin sensitivity, improved mental health, prevents sarcopenia in the elderly, the list goes on). So therefore, being able to be physically active on a weekly basis is very important to us for both mental and physical health.

The goal of exercise should be to slowly build strength and work capacity over time (without injury or over-training), which will improve stress tolerance. Consuming a balanced diet with substances that support the CNS/peripheral nervous system will help provide us with the energy needed to exercise and prevent stress from exercise.

One of the most powerful things one can do while exercising is drink sugar and protein, optimizing intra-workout nutrition. Glucose prevents exercise-induced cortisol, and amino acids from protein prevents exercise-induced serotonin release.

The biggest takeaway is that many people in life promote extremes. In the case of exercise, either too little or too much can get you into trouble. Neither is optimal. As most thing in life, the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[Arctic Fire]

@Wagner83 and @Vinero: Thank you, gents.

Good points but I think fresh juice and in particular fresh orange juice can help people deal with their meals, provide some fructose and protective compounds without the potential issues whole fruits can lead to in some individuals.

I agree, when I was getting most of my calories from fruit juice and milk, I was cold a lot of the time and felt quite off.
I think everyone should eat at least 2 big solid meals a day consisting of well-cooked starch, animal protein and saturated fat.
Only drink when thirsty. That should be enough to increase heat production, digestion, thyroid production etc.​

I agree that too much fluid can be a big problem for a lot of hypothyroid people.

ATM, though, even store-bought orange juice with baking soda seems to work better for him (i.e. lower adrenaline) than anything with significant starch or fiber. And for him, meals/peristalsis can be big triggers for adrenaline if he's eaten too much stuff that's hard to digest.

So for now, it's hard to cut fluid intake too much. If he increases his fat intake a bit, replacing some juice with a little ice cream could meet both goals.

 

[tara]

In addition to meeting nutritional needs reliably, consider:
- Regular sunlight, or if that's not possible, some supplemental red light?
- Suitable enjoyable movement daily - eg walking outdoors in pleasant places. Not to exhaustion.
- Check breathing - if mouth-breathing, then address this to get the mouth closed (except when eating and talking etc :) ) and breath through the nose all the time, including at night - use a chin-strap (there are cheap ones available online) or tape to support this if needed. This can make a difference. One symptom of chronic hyperventilation is feeling shortness of breath. It can have consequences throughout the body. (Eg. there are threads here and websites around on Buteyko method.)

The biggest takeaway is that many people in life promote excesses. In the case of exercise, either too little or too much can get you into trouble. Neither is optimal. As most thing in life, the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

+1

 

[stevrd]

@Wagner83 and @Vinero: Thank you, gents.





I agree that too much fluid can be a big problem for a lot of hypothyroid people.

ATM, though, even store-bought orange juice with baking soda seems to work better for him (i.e. lower adrenaline) than anything with significant starch or fiber. And for him, meals/peristalsis can be big triggers for adrenaline if he's eaten too much stuff that's hard to digest.

So for now, it's hard to cut fluid intake too much. If he increases his fat intake a bit, replacing some juice with a little ice cream could meet both goals.

The key with being able to handle more starch/fiber is to start small. Smaller meals helps to improve their digestion over time. Having a good, balanced breakfast with protein/fat/carbs helps decrease high morning cortisol and sets your day up better hormonally.

It's also important to emphasize nutrient-dense foods, too. OJ is good, but also a little liver (like 1-4oz) a few times per week can help, well cooked greens, onions, garlic, mushrooms, easily digestible fruit, blueberries, bananas, dark chocolate. One of my favorite desserts is a banana cut up with a couple ounces of dark chocolate heated up and melted over it. Very nutrient dense. Sometimes we have a low-grade deficiency that is causing issues. Magnesium powder is a great non-pharmalogical way to decrease cortisol, improve REM sleep and lower stress. Magnesium supplementation is safe and a pretty well-researched and effective way to increase DHEA/oppose cortisol.

 

[InChristAlone]

At my worst, after crashing from coffee, I had to do high calorie foods. Even though I wasn't actually eating high calorie the high calorie foods sustained me. Bananas, grape juice concentrate, parmigiana regiano and Gouda, pasta and butter, meats and ice cream. I would eat 4-5 oz of Haagen Dazs a day. I mostly recovered. I can still get myself in to a pickle if I veer too heavily back in to standard Peat diet. It's just not made for most stressed people oddly. Matt Stone approach works. You are just likely to gain weight doing it. I didn't care though. Feeling like I was on a rollercoaster with the Peat diet sucked even if my body looked spectacular.

 

[Arctic Fire]

In other words, I don't think that it is a good idea (in the name of health) to avoid exercise. The thing about it is, exercising in a way that does not produce much lactate (not getting out of breath) will produce a multitude of health benefits that some researchers and doctors have concluded to be more powerful than any drug on earth (increasing the number of mitochondria, better stress tolerance, chemo-like action on cancer cells, improved glucose tolerance/insulin sensitivity, improved mental health, prevents sarcopenia in the elderly, the list goes on). So therefore, being able to be physically active on a weekly basis is very important to us for both mental and physical health.

Yes, good points. The problem for my relative is that he can get ridiculous stress responses (days of pains, stiffness, or anxiety) from very little activity. And if his stress hormones get too high, the insomnia kicks in. So before he can increase his activity in a meaningful way, we need to figure out ways for him to dial back the stress response.

Consuming a balanced diet with substances that support the CNS/peripheral nervous system will help provide us with the energy needed to exercise and prevent stress from exercise.

One of the most powerful things one can do while exercising is drink sugar and protein, optimizing intra-workout nutrition. Glucose prevents exercise-induced cortisol, and amino acids from protein prevents exercise-induced serotonin release.

Thanks for these ideas. He can't handle more than brief periods of activity ATM, so sugar + protein before and after should do the job. Any other tips for post-activity recovery would also be appreciated.

Strangely, he usually feels OK during and immediately after activity -- it's later, sometimes hours later, that the insanity begins.

 

[Arctic Fire]

In addition to meeting nutritional needs reliably, consider:
- Regular sunlight, or if that's not possible, some supplemental red light?
- Suitable enjoyable movement daily - eg walking outdoors in pleasant places. Not to exhaustion.

Thanks, Tara.

My relative gets a fair amount of mid-day sun (great for morale) and uses red light on head and torso every few days.

I agree about enjoyable movement/walking. The catch is that even short walks that don't come close to exhausting him can give him pains and elevated adrenaline for days afterwards. So exercise isn't really sustainable until we can figure out how to limit his disproportionate stress response.

- Check breathing - if mouth-breathing, then address this to get the mouth closed (except when eating and talking etc :) ) and breath through the nose all the time, including at night - use a chin-strap (there are cheap ones available online) or tape to support this if needed. This can make a difference. One symptom of chronic hyperventilation is feeling shortness of breath. It can have consequences throughout the body. (Eg. there are threads here and websites around on Buteyko method.)

Very good idea. He claims not to breathe through his mouth but isn't sure about mouth-breathing at night, so taping is definitely a worthwhile experiment.

 

[Arctic Fire]

It's also important to emphasize nutrient-dense foods, too...Sometimes we have a low-grade deficiency that is causing issues.

I've wondered for a while if he has a deficiency. Could explain the adrenaline surges -- despite plenty of calories -- in response to increased metabolic rate or exertion. But he eats liver, oysters, and eggs, gets plenty of the alkali minerals, supplements the fat-solubles, etc. B1 and biotin helped him a lot for a while, and then lost effectiveness. Maybe he's low on some co-factor of B1 and biotin.

Magnesium powder is a great non-pharmalogical way to decrease cortisol, improve REM sleep and lower stress. Magnesium supplementation is safe and a pretty well-researched and effective way to increase DHEA/oppose cortisol.

Yes, good point. Supplementing magnesium has helped with adrenaline.

 

[Arctic Fire]

At my worst, after crashing from coffee, I had to do high calorie foods. Even though I wasn't actually eating high calorie the high calorie foods sustained me. Bananas, grape juice concentrate, parmigiana regiano and Gouda, pasta and butter, meats and ice cream. I would eat 4-5 oz of Haagen Dazs a day. I mostly recovered. I can still get myself in to a pickle if I veer too heavily back in to standard Peat diet. It's just not made for most stressed people oddly. Matt Stone approach works. You are just likely to gain weight doing it. I didn't care though. Feeling like I was on a rollercoaster with the Peat diet sucked even if my body looked spectacular.

Thanks, Janelle; your story and my relative's both begin with caffeine problems, so it's good to hear your experiences. Nice list of high calorie foods you used. He's eating a lot of reduced fat cheese. Might be time to add ice cream and parm reg.

 

[stevrd]

Yes, good points. The problem for my relative is that he can get ridiculous stress responses (days of pains, stiffness, or anxiety) from very little activity. And if his stress hormones get too high, the insomnia kicks in. So before he can increase his activity in a meaningful way, we need to figure out ways for him to dial back the stress response.



Thanks for these ideas. He can't handle more than brief periods of activity ATM, so sugar + protein before and after should do the job. Any other tips for post-activity recovery would also be appreciated.

Strangely, he usually feels OK during and immediately after activity -- it's later, sometimes hours later, that the insanity begins.

Pre, intra, and post workout nutrition is very important, especially in those with poor work capacity and those who get an excessive stress response from exercise. Amino acids and carbs will prevent most of the issues. Baking soda can help prevent the build up of excess lactate. But the main focus should be on carbs and protein. Sipping on a drink with gelatin and sugar (preferably from something other than OJ, since it can cause mucus, which can affect your workout). Milk is OK, but I like to use a powdered dextrose, like tang, mixed with gelatin. I know baking soda is beneficial, but I can't stand the taste during my workout. I may take a shot of it before a workout for that reason.

The important indicators to look for are heavy breathing and light-headedness. Once you reach this point, you've gone too far, pushed to hard, too fast in your workout. You also lose out on the beneficial aspects of exercise. Breathless exercise, as Peat says, is problematic. it stimulates excessive amounts of stress hormones, and serotonin/prolactin. You can train your body efficiently without getting out of breath. If you look up the maffetone method, which Peat has promoted in the past, it makes this case very well. Dr. Maffetone is an expert in training endurance athletes gradually without stressing them out. The key is to not get to the point where you need to breath through your mouth during endurance training. It's OK to breath through the mouth during strength training, but never get to the point of hyperventilation. This is why it's important to take at least a 3 minute breaks between sets. This was my biggest issue with exercise. I was not taking long enough breaks, and as a result, I was not progressing in my workouts, and the stress response I would get would be insane.

One glaring issue of concern is that if he can't go on a brisk walk without feeling excessive amounts of stress, then that is serious. I would consult with a medical doctor to look into the issue further. He could have a chronic infection, STD, or something that has driven his red/white blood cells very low. He could be anemic for a number of reasons. There are so many variables, it's impossible to know, which is why he should have it investigated. But the other thing is, if he does turn out to be otherwise "healthy" from an MD's perspective, then I would say that he potentially needs to suck it up and realize that in the beginning, any exercise program is going to suck. One's work capacity is so low, that he experiences high adrenaline/cortisol to anything, potentially even walking. This doesn't mean that there's something wrong with him or that he should avoid exercise. Quite the opposite, he needs to gradually build up to the point where he can handle more work over time.

Being in a situation where one can't walk up a flight of stairs without getting out of breath is dangerous and it needs to be taken very seriously. The heart, lungs, and muscles need to be conditioned and you can't do this through eating a clean diet, no matter what anybody tells you.

 

[Wagner83]

Won't the proteins during the workout be an issue? I think @haidut knows some stuff on this topic, I saw discussions on pre and post workouts as well as some on the use of sucrose during the workout (not sure about nutrients to deal with it) but never really came across amino-acids/proteins during the workout. I'm intrigued.

 

[haidut]

Won't the proteins during the workout be an issue? I think @haidut knows some stuff on this topic, I saw discussions on pre and post workouts as well as some on the use of sucrose during the workout (not sure about nutrients to deal with it) but never really came across amino-acids/proteins during the workout. I'm intrigued.

I would not eat undigested protein during workout, only before/after. Amino acids may be better but still the main fuel should be glucose. You don't want to be oxidizing amino acids as it is a stress signal and raises ammonia. Some BCAA/tyrosine may help delay exercise induced fatigue.

 

[Hans]

I would not eat undigested protein during workout, only before/after. Amino acids may be better but still the main fuel should be glucose. You don't want to be oxidizing amino acids as it is a stress signal and raises ammonia. Some BCAA/tyrosine may help delay exercise induced fatigue.

I take BCAA/tyrosine + oxidal pre-workout and it definitely helps to lower serotonin and delay fatigue. Makes working out easier. I used to take Diamant pre-workout too, but now I use it with my gonadin before bed.

BCAA/protein pre-workout increases amino acid deliverance to the muscle post-workout more than when not ingesting protein pre-workout or ingesting protein post-workout. BCAA/protein pre-workout (with carbs if you wish), will prevent muscle catabolism during the workout. There is no need to add protein during the workout as well, as Haidut said.

 

[stevrd]

There is some evidence to suggest that consuming protein during exercise results in improved protein synthesis and less muscle protein breakdown: Is There a Need for Protein Ingestion During Exercise?
Protein coingestion stimulates muscle protein synthesis during resistance-type exercise. - PubMed - NCBI

Now the difference between taking protein before or during probably is nil, because if you eat protein before your workout, your body is still digesting it and trickling amino acids into the blood stream, keeping serum aminos elevated.
Nutrient timing revisited: is there a post-exercise anabolic window?

As Haidut said BCAAs are very successful, possibly more so than whole protein. I think you could take that during your workout with success. The goal of intra-workout aminos is to prevent the exercise-induced rise in serotonin, which BCAAs do very well, via competition with other aminos.

 

[stevrd]

I take BCAA/tyrosine + oxidal pre-workout and it definitely helps to lower serotonin and delay fatigue. Makes working out easier. I used to take Diamant pre-workout too, but now I use it with my gonadin before bed.

What effects do you get from gonadin? Thinking of getting some myself.

 

[Hans]

What effects do you get from gonadin? Thinking of getting some myself.

So far only the GABA boosting effect. It's probably increasing my T and lowering E, but I haven't noticed a change in anything else yet.