B Complex Deficiency, Sympathetic Nervous Dysregulation, & Starvation

[Nemo]

Discussing research on beriberi, Dr. Lonsdale, who wrote a book on thiamine deficiency, observed that
"beriberi symptomatology is extremely complex and not a matter of simply giving a few milligrams of thiamin. In fact, it took huge doses of the vitamin for months to abolish the symptoms."

Creative, everyone is different, but I can tell you that I can trigger severe hyperventilation and most of the other symptoms you have in myself by simply taking 20-25 mg of B1 at one time. That's supposed to be impossible, but I could do it right now. The first time it happened it was so frightening I went to the ER.

Like you, I believe I had some degree of beriberi.

But smaller doses of B1 (in 1-2 drops of Energin with each meal or snack) have been the single most helpful thing I've done other than resuming eating fruit and milk.

I mentioned manganese because it was hugely helpful to me when I took care to get enough, not in supplements but in foods. I apparently needed more manganese for the B1 I was taking to work right.

 

[Creative Nature]

A few clarifications (not in response to any particular comment)...

If you think large doses of B1 are risky, great; so do I. I've only been using them because up to now, they're by far the most effective way I've found to calm my sympathetic nervous response. (Lonsdale explains a potential link between B1 deficiency and dysautonomia.)

Instead of trying to persuade me on this point, on which we agree, you can help me identify or fix other possible nutrient deficiencies. Or understand better what's causing the intense sympathetic response and how to avoid it. Or figure out why the sympathetic response to protein is much worse than to carbs or fat. (Maybe B3 deficiency leading to low production of stomach acid, as @charlie mentioned in one of his posts on B3?) I appreciate all the help I've already received along these lines. The primary goal is to enable me to eat enough to heal.

Since late April, I've mostly used well under 1 g per day of thiamine HCl. It's only in the last couple of months that I've had to increase the doses a lot in response to the worsening of symptoms caused by excessive activity. And it's only in the last couple of weeks that I've reached multi-gram amounts. Thanks to suggestions in this thread, I've been able to lower the doses significantly over the last couple of days.

Thanks for all the helpful comments. I'll try to respond to the most recent ones later in the week.

 

[Creative Nature]

Update...

In response to several comments to the effect that the B vitamins do no good without sufficient calories, I've been trying to squeeze in a few extra calories however I can -- a bit of coconut oil here, a sip of juice there. I've also returned to my earlier practice of consuming a pinch or so of salt every 15-30 minutes when experiencing adrenergic symptoms.

The results have been remarkable. All these tiny increases in calories, which I doubted would matter, are adding up, my energy is increasing, and my adrenergic symptoms have been milder for the last couple of days. It's getting easier for me to eat (protein is still a big problem), and I've needed less B1 yesterday and so far today.

It's too early to say whether these improvements are the beginning of a virtuous cycle (more calories --> milder adrenergic symptoms --> less difficulty eating), but they're a great start. Thank you.

 

[peateats1]

So I ended up having trouble with these symptoms over the weekend, when I started using a little bit of progesterone, niacinimide, aspirin, and b1 again.
I thought my issues were deficiencies and not eating enough, which probably was/is partly true but this experiment of reintroducing supplements has been eye opening.
It's too much for my system and throws everything out of whack. I know I need to eat a lot when using these supplements but they literally make me nauseous and I nearly throw up with small amounts of food, and back to the surging adrenaline and sleepless nights I went.

So, I'm having the best luck with small amounts of thyroid and eating as much food as I can. The thyroid stimulates my appetite and the food supplies all the nutrients I need hopefully.

I think these individual vitamins really can make people sick with chronic illness, I think peat said somewhere that he knew of people who became well after stopping all supplements.

Without thyroid though I turn into a zombie, so I definitely need the thyroid.

I just posted the same thing. I hope ten more of us who have been through this will post their stories, so people understand how important it is to take this slowly.

I don't think people realize how powerful Dr. Peat's recommendations are.

If you're starting out sick, and especially if you're older and sick, I don't think your body can switch overnight to full-out Peat, especially if you add a lot of supplements like methylene blue. You probably have vitamin and mineral and sunlight deficiencies that you will have to correct in order to be able to handle a real Peat diet.

In my experience, you can safely cut PUFAs fast, add gelatin and/or a good glycine-rich broth and fruit and a glass of OJ and milk and an ounce of liver a day to start. That's a lot.

Then cut fat to 30% of calories a day, but be realistic about your calorie requirements, which are probably at least 20% higher than what you think they are if you've been trying to lose weight by cutting calories (and will get even higher as your metabolism improves). Don't go straight to very low fat if you've been on a low-carb diet. You'll replace the fat with carbs and if you don't have the vitamins and minerals in place to handle the carbs, here comes your first crisis.

I would strongly recommend taking the time to look closely at vitamin and mineral requirements. Chris Masterjohn has a great email series (or you can watch his videos) that covers every vitamin and mineral, looks at and evaluates the RDA, and discusses how to get the average requirement. You're going to need more as you improve your metabolism, but you have to start with at least the RDA or Masterjohn RDA.

The first supplements I'd start would be very low-dose K2 and E and a B multi, specifically Energin. That is the most wonderful B complex supplement ever invented, in my opinion. I doubt 1% of Americans are getting enough of any of these. I'd also start aspirin, one adult tablet a day to start. If you can't handle one adult aspirin a day, cut back to a baby aspirin or two a day.

Every step you take from there should be slow, one step at a time. It takes time to get to know your recovering body well enough to even realize when you're starting to overdo it.

I totally agree with your advice here. If I were able to start over with this diet I would definitely only change a few things at a time. As you said eliminating pufa(from veg oil especially) seems like a very reasonable and safe first step, then maybe adding in a little milk and oj to already existing diet. Maybe add a little coffee each day if you enjoy it...avoid emfs and other known toxins. From there I'd just make sure I was getting the proper amount of nutrients and calories each day...not sure at this point if I'd ever touch a supplement including aspirin or progest e just based on where I'm at and what I've gone through. I definitely would not consume white sugar with reckless abandon either.
All these supplements bring with them so much promise and you start to think if you just take x and y supplements you'll heal your body and finally become healthy and energetic. At least that's what I thought. But in reality, I'd love to know if anyone has actually fixed a problem permanently without causing other issues, by using supplements? My liver enzymes have always been normal until my latest blood test, they are now over 100...so either niacinimide or pregnenolone caused this, or going super low fat flooded me with pufa(even after 7 yrs of low pufa zero seed oil diet)
I asked Ray Peat if it was ok to take large doses of pregnenolone and he responded that he had taken up to 3000mg and had no ill effects, so I thought I'd up my dose to 300 mg for the fatigue I was experiencing at the time, and I think it nearly gave me a heart attack amongst other things. I told him what effects I was having from it and he said that's not possible with pure pregnenolone. But I think if you don't have the right physiology and everything else in line, it doesn't matter if the source is pure or not, it can create different effects in different people. Some bad and maybe others good.
I feel like using all these different supplements push and pull your body in so many different directions it can't possibly be good for long term usage of such things.
After I posted my first reply in this thread I was feeling strong enough, I thought I had my nutrient and calorie needs covered etc, so I decided to use a little b3 and small dose of aspirin plus a few drops of progest e for my cycle. I crashed hard again Saturday and Sunday, didn't sleep for two nights and literally felt like hell. So yesterday and today I began digging myself back out of the hole I created again. Not fun! Back to small doses of thyroid and lots of food plus I'm doing Epsom salt baths now instead of supplementing magnesium just because I hate all supplements at this time
Sorry for my ranting, but yeah I'd really caution people to start very slow with this diet. Maybe all you need is a slight adjustment to your current diet and some thyroid(or not) and sunlight.

 

[ExCarniv]

Maybe all you need is a slight adjustment to your current diet and some thyroid(or not) and sunlight

Yeah, people tend to go all in gorging liters of orange juice and milk, lots of supplements, avoid starch when not needed, under eats because becomes orthorexics and all that add too much stress to an already stressed person.

 

[Creative Nature]

More improvement over the last few days. More calories moderate the sympathetic response, making it possible to eat even more. I'm tolerating protein better. The amount of B1 necessary to keep the adrenergic symptoms under control is dropping. And these improvements started with just a little extra saturated fat and juice.

 

[charlie]

More improvement over the last few days. More calories moderate the sympathetic response, making it possible to eat even more. I'm tolerating protein better. The amount of B1 necessary to keep the adrenergic symptoms under control is dropping. And these improvements started with just a little extra saturated fat and juice.

Fantastic!

 

[Creative Nature]

@redsun: I hear you about the risks that high doses of B1 will deplete other nutrients. The good news is that as my calorie intake has increased over the last week or so, I've needed much less B1. Thanks for mentioning the connection with B2. I've tried a little extra B2 (in addition to what I get from diet and Energin) on a few days since reading your comment; effects not clear yet, but I'll continue to experiment. I hope I'm getting enough iron & copper from desiccated liver and (when I can eat them) beef and shellfish. Working on increasing protein...

 

[Creative Nature]

Creative, everyone is different, but I can tell you that I can trigger severe hyperventilation and most of the other symptoms you have in myself by simply taking 20-25 mg of B1 at one time. That's supposed to be impossible, but I could do it right now. The first time it happened it was so frightening I went to the ER.

Wow. Impressive how differently two people can respond to the same compound.

Like you, I believe I had some degree of beriberi.

But smaller doses of B1 (in 1-2 drops of Energin with each meal or snack) have been the single most helpful thing I've done other than resuming eating fruit and milk.

Makes sense. The Biskinds said beriberi patients often did much better with the full range of B vitamins than with B1 alone.

I mentioned manganese because it was hugely helpful to me when I took care to get enough, not in supplements but in foods. I apparently needed more manganese for the B1 I was taking to work right.

Good to know, thanks. I'll read up on manganese and make sure I'm getting enough.

 

[Creative Nature]

So I ended up having trouble with these symptoms over the weekend, when I started using a little bit of progesterone, niacinimide, aspirin, and b1 again.
I thought my issues were deficiencies and not eating enough, which probably was/is partly true but this experiment of reintroducing supplements has been eye opening.

Sorry to hear. Even low doses of pregnenolone for more than a day or two will set off my symptoms. Too much aspirin or B3 messes me up as well. I suspect I just don't have a good enough nutritional foundation to support the increase in metabolism due to these supplements.

So, I'm having the best luck with small amounts of thyroid and eating as much food as I can. The thyroid stimulates my appetite and the food supplies all the nutrients I need hopefully.

Nibbling all day and gradually increasing calories are working well for me so far. I react to thyroid (with T3) the way you react to the other supplements you've mentioned. I do plan to try it again when I'm confident I've fixed my nutritional deficiencies.

After I posted my first reply in this thread I was feeling strong enough, I thought I had my nutrient and calorie needs covered etc, so I decided to use a little b3 and small dose of aspirin plus a few drops of progest e for my cycle. I crashed hard again Saturday and Sunday, didn't sleep for two nights and literally felt like hell.

A big lesson for me has been how difficult and time-consuming it can be to fix a serious nutrient deficiency. Hopefully since you figured out your problems quickly, it won't take you as long to correct any deficiencies.

 

[Creative Nature]

Fantastic!

Thanks again, @charlie.