Opioid Addicition Recovery Plan

[Terma]

Thanks for clarifying. It must be your personal biochemistry that caused such withdrawals. The normal dose is 12,5mg x 3 a day and at times I have taken much higher doses, maybe in the ammounts like 70mg or maybe more (it was difficult to guess the dosage with pure powder). I have used both powder from ebay and commercial one from the pharmacy. NEVER EVER I had even a remote feeling of addiction or withdrawal. I could take it for months and stop cold turkey without any symptom. And it is to the best of my knowledge that there are many more people like that.

Cheers!

In terms of dosage, yeah, I am super sensitive to opioid dependence for some reason even though they did wonders at the time. And the whole time I was on the 2 most reputable brands, and frustratingly it even happened with tianeptine sulfate for me (whereas several people noticed it wasn't as addicting as sodium). But long story short: Quitting Tianeptine most of those people took at least 200mg or so, but that's basically the level of withdrawal I always ended up getting all the time. To me it's a notch in my belt because I've been through worse yet, but not everyone was that "lucky" (the admin of that subreddit died [I talked to that guy] from supposedly kratom overdose after having supposedly quit tia, some other guy died trying to quit using phenibut, and this kid died unrelated to tianeptine but even stranger, from poppy seed tea). If you search hard enough I even found a few cases of people becoming dependent at 12.5mg x 3 after long term usage, and it was quite deceiving for people because they all thought it was only tricyclic withdrawal.

My personal theory is a combination of pre-existing issues possible with the dynorphin system (via CRH, or possibly even something unrelated wrong with POMC) causing a massive rebound in terms of crippling anxiety, but also tia produces an RLS syndrome on withdrawal that appears worse than other opioids. Heroin addicts don't quite complain of the same RLS level. So it does something either to the cholinergic, serotonin or other system, I never found out and gave up since I plain quit trying to use it (like 6 months before the supply dried up), but someday someone will.

Point is, although I am especially sensitive to dependence, towards around 100-200mg/day you'd maybe start getting the same thing (don't underestimate it!).

[Don't get me wrong: somehow I still believe this was a great drug - it is, it proves the concept of microdosing opioids in depression/other - same as microdosing LSD/MDMA. Personally if I could land a decent supply I'd do a microdosing MDMA trial first thing]

 

[Makrosky]

In terms of dosage, yeah, I am super sensitive to opioid dependence for some reason even though they did wonders at the time. And the whole time I was on the 2 most reputable brands, and frustratingly it even happened with tianeptine sulfate for me (whereas several people noticed it wasn't as addicting as sodium). But long story short: Quitting Tianeptine most of those people took at least 200mg or so, but that's basically the level of withdrawal I always ended up getting all the time. To me it's a notch in my belt because I've been through worse yet, but not everyone was that "lucky" (the admin of that subreddit died [I talked to that guy] from supposedly kratom overdose after having supposedly quit tia, some other guy died trying to quit using phenibut, and this kid died unrelated to tianeptine but even stranger, from poppy seed tea). If you search hard enough I even found a few cases of people becoming dependent at 12.5mg x 3 after long term usage, and it was quite deceiving for people because they all thought it was only tricyclic withdrawal.

My personal theory is a combination of pre-existing issues possible with the dynorphin system (via CRH, or possibly even something unrelated wrong with POMC) causing a massive rebound in terms of crippling anxiety, but also tia produces an RLS syndrome on withdrawal that appears worse than other opioids. Heroin addicts don't quite complain of the same RLS level. So it does something either to the cholinergic, serotonin or other system, I never found out and gave up since I plain quit trying to use it (like 6 months before the supply dried up), but someday someone will.

Point is, although I am especially sensitive to dependence, towards around 100-200mg/day you'd maybe start getting the same thing (don't underestimate it!).

[Don't get me wrong: somehow I still believe this was a great drug - it is, it proves the concept of microdosing opioids in depression/other - same as microdosing LSD/MDMA. Personally if I could land a decent supply I'd do a microdosing MDMA trial first thing]

Individual biochemistry plays a big role. I get very noticeable rebound effects from very small ammounts of cyproheptadine after only a few day (skin itching and stuff like that). Luckily they only last one days. Whereas others can take very big ammounts for weeks without feeling any rebound. I even get rebounds from glycine. Nothing from tianeptine. It is a wonder drug for me. It's been a long time since I never exceed 37.5mg a day, not because I am worried with withdrawal but I just want to be sure I am not messing up other pathways.

 

[Terma]

Heh I can't handle cyproheptadine or high dose glycine either (not sure why the latter but possibly chloride channels or too much glycine-cleavage ammonia, whereas as cypro I'm not even interested anymore lol).

I'm glad for you, it was in fact practically a wonder drug for me when combined with progesterone, so it's a bummer. I'd just watch out long-term...

 

[Soren]

I know I haven't updated this in a long time but I recently have made great progress helping someone who was withdrawing from opioids.

I took steps with this person to tackle the principle hormones that have been shown to be factors in both withdrawal and addiction; serotonin, prolactin, cortisol, estrogen, histamine and endotoxin.

Supplements I have used so far are;

Vitamin A
Vitamin D
Vitamin k2
Niacinamide
Taurine
Charcoal
Gelatin
Glycine
Theanine

He had been suffering badly with chills, sweats etc, he had taken suboxone and this had made him feel 10x worse. At this point he had not taken any of the treatments I had recommended because he thought there was no way that they were going to help (the subconscious dogma against anything that is not doctor prescribed is strong) but he was suffering so much that he agreed. I gave him a tablespoon of activated charcoal and topically a large dose of vitamin A and vitamin D. He was almost in disbelief when within minutes he said that he almost instantly started feeling better.

The next day he felt a lot better but his stomach was not so good I'm assuming this is down to excess serotonin and probably very depleted glycine stores. I told him to take a serving of collagen protein and glycine. Once again to his amazement this helped his stomach a great deal.

This was all about a week ago and since then he has taken the supplements I have recommended daily and has not taken any more suboxone. Those closest to him have said he seems like a different person and the transformation has been rapid.

One other thing to note that I am sure had a positive effect is he got taken out of a very bad environment, isolated with no social life or purpose that was certainly increasing his stress hormones and feeding the addiction. Learnt helplessness to be sure.

There is more to be done to be sure but I think putting a block on the stress hormones and boosting his metabolism has made a big effect. If I'm honest I did not think that these first round of supplements would help as much as they seem to have and I am very pleasently surprised.

It is early days still and there is more to be done but I feel like this is a very good start and there are a lot more quivers in the Ray peat arsenal that can be called on if necessary.

 

[LUH 3417]

Very high doses of cyproheptadine (32mg) curb my cravings for tobacco and complete eliminate my desire to smoke weed

 

[Soren]

Further update. Continued improvement with very little need for suboxone, he took 3mg of cypro the other day and it completely alleviated the usual sweats and withdrawal symptoms that he has been experiencing. Still is having stomach cramps but think this can be relieved with a serving of collagen and sugar as it was last time.

 

[Soren]

Ok so another update. Very good results. Trying to tweak and understand things as best I can in order to arrive at long term solutions and minimize withdrawal symptoms. Any feedback much appreciated.

He's been on very low doses of suboxone for a while now. Three days ago he had his last very small dose and has been going on nothing except on the supplements I have been giving him. He's going to be staying with me for the next few weeks so I can help him directly. The results compared to his previous experience have been nothing short of phenomenal. Night and day.

Some background on his previous experience. He told me that the last time he came off of suboxone he had 11 days of misery. Everyday he would go to sleep and wake up with no improvement and then one day he woke up and he was fine. This is part of the reason he has been on them for so long even though at a very low dose.

I started him on a regime a few days ago and he has told me that if last time was a 10 out of 10 in terms of how sick he felt this time it is a 3 or 4 so a very significant improvement. This morning he woke up and he said he felt 100% fine this is only after 2 days of following my regime. Now I have given him multiple supplements in order to cover all possible angles so it is somewhat difficult to ascertain which supplements exactly are having the positive effect but I will now go over some of the specific supplements and what his reaction appears to have been.

L-theanine, Taurine, progesterone, collagen, orange juice shake
So last night before he went to bed he took 300mg of l-theanine (which he has taken before without issue) and about an hour later he took a orange juice shake with 3 grams of taurine, 20mg of progesterone, and 20 grams of collagen. He told me he experienced a significant elevation in his shaking and twitching for a time and then it completely subsided and he was able to sleep very well and woke up this morning feeling very good. I have been trying to figure out what would be the cause of the increase of shaking. My theory has been that it could be a die off of bacteria causing a marked increase in endotoxin but quickly subsided due to the anti endotoxin effects of the ingredients in the shake. He seems to think that it was the l-theanine that caused the increase in shaking and twitching as he took it before the shake but he is not sure how long it was between them.

Activated Charcoal
This was something that had immediate positive benefit and significant relief of symptoms. I gave him two tablespoons of activated charcoal and within minutes he felt better. I would assume that this was due to the immediate strong action against endotoxin which is one of the main causes of the withdrawal symptoms. Both times I gave him this he went from feeling awful to significantly better.

Metergoline Lisuride Combo
Yesterday I gave him 100mcg of Lisuride and 2mg of Metergoline. Later about midday I gave him a further 2mg of metergoline and then a further 2mg. Pretty sure this had a positive effect as it reduced his twitching somewhat and he found he was able to fall asleep relatively easily.

Morning Regime
Woke up yesterday feeling pretty bad gave him two tablespoons of activated charcoal. Then topically on wrist one dose of Pansterone (pregnenolone & Dhea), 3mg of Cypro, Estroban, Magnesium oil. This had the rapid effect of feeling awful and not being able to get out of bed to coming downstairs and having breakfast and feeling relatively ok.

The supplements I have used in varying doses over the past 2 days are;
Cyproheptadine
Metergoline
Lisuride
Progesterone
DHEA
Pregnenolone
Activated Charcoal
Collagen
Cardenosine
Taurine
Energin (B-Vitamins)
Niacinamide
Magnesium Oil (Magnoil)
Estroban (Vitamin A, D, E, K)
Zinc

 

[Soren]

Today Summary

Woke up and felt very good said that compared to his previous experience he felt significantly better then he had in previous experiences.

Woke up and topically took 2mg of Metergoline and 100mcg of Lisuride and 4 drops of Magnoil

Breakfast:
Orange Juice Shake: 20 grams of collagen, 20 drops of Energin, 20 drops of Cardenosine.
4 Eggs.

Hour later 2 tablespoon of activated charcoal

Felt very good pretty much the whole day until about 7pm when he felt shivers, chills and nausea return. I think it coincides with about the amount of time before the Metergoline and Lisuride would be out of his system. Have given him another 2mg of metergoline and 100mcg of lisuride as well as 20mg of progesterone (for its ability to bind to endotoxin) Progesterone May Bind And Deactivate Endotoxin (LPS) Directly

Also have given him another 2 tablespoons of activated charcoal (quick improvement in nausea from this).

 

[Soren]

Steady progress. Clearly getting better everyday. One observation is that when the sun goes down he definitely gets worse. Increase in withdrawal symptoms. I'm not sure if this is tied to sunlight or the fact that the stress hormones are typically elevated at the end of the day.

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Soren]

This morning he woke up feeling fine and I decided to not give him any of the usual supps I had been. I wanted to see how long he would last before he started feeling the withdrawal. So far it has usually coincided with the sun going down (4pm). However today it was very different. He only started to feel bad at about 9pm shortly after he had a large meal (steak and potatoes and wine). Earlier in the day he had not eaten much. This adds evidence to the idea that the withdrawl symptoms are entirely down to serotonin and when he eats a heavy meal his gut endotoxin produces more serotonin. Also why charcoal seems to bring him quick relief.

The challange is that it might take time to alter his microbiome sufficiently where this no longer becomes a problem. He has been taking AC (activated charcoal) nearly everyday for a week and I think this has greatly helped. Although I am wondering if this is enough and perhaps he needs something like antibiotics to really make a long lasting difference.

Have ordered him some camphosol and will experiment with that and see how we go.

 

[Soren]

Belated update. After 14 days off without subs and following my recommendations he was completely withdrawal symptoms free and as of now is in very good health.

I have kept in on a decent dose of collagen protein to help repair and protect his gut.

Maintaining a healthy state will obviously be important to prevent re-lapse but I am very optimistic. As of right now he is a totally different person.

Again I just want to re-iterate that he told me compared to the previous time he quit subs that this has been a walk in the park. A dimly lit and cold park but much much easier to when he had nothing to help him.

Will update if there are problems again in the future.

Hope this info helps someone.

 

[area51puy]

Ok so another update. Very good results. Trying to tweak and understand things as best I can in order to arrive at long term solutions and minimize withdrawal symptoms. Any feedback much appreciated.

He's been on very low doses of suboxone for a while now. Three days ago he had his last very small dose and has been going on nothing except on the supplements I have been giving him. He's going to be staying with me for the next few weeks so I can help him directly. The results compared to his previous experience have been nothing short of phenomenal. Night and day.

Some background on his previous experience. He told me that the last time he came off of suboxone he had 11 days of misery. Everyday he would go to sleep and wake up with no improvement and then one day he woke up and he was fine. This is part of the reason he has been on them for so long even though at a very low dose.

I started him on a regime a few days ago and he has told me that if last time was a 10 out of 10 in terms of how sick he felt this time it is a 3 or 4 so a very significant improvement. This morning he woke up and he said he felt 100% fine this is only after 2 days of following my regime. Now I have given him multiple supplements in order to cover all possible angles so it is somewhat difficult to ascertain which supplements exactly are having the positive effect but I will now go over some of the specific supplements and what his reaction appears to have been.

L-theanine, Taurine, progesterone, collagen, orange juice shake
So last night before he went to bed he took 300mg of l-theanine (which he has taken before without issue) and about an hour later he took a orange juice shake with 3 grams of taurine, 20mg of progesterone, and 20 grams of collagen. He told me he experienced a significant elevation in his shaking and twitching for a time and then it completely subsided and he was able to sleep very well and woke up this morning feeling very good. I have been trying to figure out what would be the cause of the increase of shaking. My theory has been that it could be a die off of bacteria causing a marked increase in endotoxin but quickly subsided due to the anti endotoxin effects of the ingredients in the shake. He seems to think that it was the l-theanine that caused the increase in shaking and twitching as he took it before the shake but he is not sure how long it was between them.

Activated Charcoal
This was something that had immediate positive benefit and significant relief of symptoms. I gave him two tablespoons of activated charcoal and within minutes he felt better. I would assume that this was due to the immediate strong action against endotoxin which is one of the main causes of the withdrawal symptoms. Both times I gave him this he went from feeling awful to significantly better.

Metergoline Lisuride Combo
Yesterday I gave him 100mcg of Lisuride and 2mg of Metergoline. Later about midday I gave him a further 2mg of metergoline and then a further 2mg. Pretty sure this had a positive effect as it reduced his twitching somewhat and he found he was able to fall asleep relatively easily.

Morning Regime
Woke up yesterday feeling pretty bad gave him two tablespoons of activated charcoal. Then topically on wrist one dose of Pansterone (pregnenolone & Dhea), 3mg of Cypro, Estroban, Magnesium oil. This had the rapid effect of feeling awful and not being able to get out of bed to coming downstairs and having breakfast and feeling relatively ok.

The supplements I have used in varying doses over the past 2 days are;
Cyproheptadine
Metergoline
Lisuride
Progesterone
DHEA
Pregnenolone
Activated Charcoal
Collagen
Cardenosine
Taurine
Energin (B-Vitamins)
Niacinamide
Magnesium Oil (Magnoil)
Estroban (Vitamin A, D, E, K)
Zinc

My brother has a drug problem too, I have all those ingredients except lisurde cyproheptadine , but do have metergoline and diamant from idealabs. Do think those could replace cypro and lisuride. And any updates, did he stay clean?

my hope would be to convince him to give it a try and hopefully if he got clean I would get him on a ray peat lifestyle.

 

[Soren]

My brother has a drug problem too, I have all those ingredients except lisurde cyproheptadine , but do have metergoline and diamant from idealabs. Do think those could replace cypro and lisuride. And any updates, did he stay clean?

my hope would be to convince him to give it a try and hopefully if he got clean I would get him on a ray peat lifestyle.

Sorry to hear about your brother. The thing that helped my brother the most was the cyproheptadine it is also one of the safest and most tested drugs. I found it was better to start off with a standard dose and increase based on symptoms. Be aware that too much can cause constipation although this was not an issue for my brother he actually had quite bad diarrhoea which I imagine was due to the high Serotonin caused by withdrawal.

Activated charcoal was also very helpful for him. One tablespoon with a large glass of water quite quickly helped abate symptoms.

Metergoline also could be very helpful as it has strong anti Serotonin effects but I would not take it later in the day as it can affect sleep due to the boost in dopamine. This is good for fighting addiction but not good for sleep. The same is true for Lisurde better to take in the mornings with food.

Diamant I do not know but I would imagine it would be helpful.

Yes he has stayed clean. This was the second time he had done the withdrawal and he said it was 1000x easier this time than last time.

The most important thing that has kept him clean has been change of environment/situation, work, social etc.

 

[youngsinatra]

Have you ever considered the substance cerebrolysin?
I‘ve heard many good testimonials about using it to regenerate the brain from the drug-induced habitual neuronal networks.
It is an extraction of a neurotropic growth-factor from pig brains and is used in russia. You can find it on cosmicnootropics.

It strongly stimulates neurogenesis and increases neuroplasticity.

 

[area51puy]

Sorry to hear about your brother. The thing that helped my brother the most was the cyproheptadine it is also one of the safest and most tested drugs. I found it was better to start off with a standard dose and increase based on symptoms. Be aware that too much can cause constipation although this was not an issue for my brother he actually had quite bad diarrhoea which I imagine was due to the high Serotonin caused by withdrawal.

Activated charcoal was also very helpful for him. One tablespoon with a large glass of water quite quickly helped abate symptoms.

Metergoline also could be very helpful as it has strong anti Serotonin effects but I would not take it later in the day as it can affect sleep due to the boost in dopamine. This is good for fighting addiction but not good for sleep. The same is true for Lisurde better to take in the mornings with food.

Diamant I do not know but I would imagine it would be helpful.

Yes he has stayed clean. This was the second time he had done the withdrawal and he said it was 1000x easier this time than last time.

The most important thing that has kept him clean has been change of environment/situation, work, social etc.

Thanks! he hasn’t said he wanted to quit yet and I know he has detoxed in the past and it was pretty bad, but has always relapsed. So if I can convince him to give it a try again and reduce the withdraw symptoms he might stick with it.

 

[area51puy]

Have you ever considered the substance cerebrolysin?
I‘ve heard many good testimonials about using it to regenerate the brain from the drug-induced habitual neuronal networks.
It is an extraction of a neurotropic growth-factor from pig brains and is used in russia. You can find it on cosmicnootropics.

It strongly stimulates neurogenesis and increases neuroplasticity.

I haven’t heard about it, but would that be something you use after they get clean or something that could help while they are on it and help them get off the drugs?

 

[Soren]

Thanks! he hasn’t said he wanted to quit yet and I know he has detoxed in the past and it was pretty bad, but has always relapsed. So if I can convince him to give it a try again and reduce the withdraw symptoms he might stick with it.

A big part of the detox symptoms is high serotonin levels this is why cyproheptadine helps so much it used to be used in the ER of many hospitals for people going through withdrawal from drugs and alcohol.

 

[Marius]

Hi, have been helping someone fighting opiode addiction. The regime and combination of different supplements including cyproheptadine, cannabis(thc dominant strain) for administering against associated pain, also the frequent use of Kratom which plays a significance based on it signaling some of the same receptor types as opiodes. The person stopped the treatment of subuxone with 15ugz and used these solutions as a part of ongoing detoxification.
Also subsequently microdosing with lsd 8-20ugz.
The person has been on both subuxone and subutex for almost five years but with some periods up to 2-3 weeks without.

 

[Frankdee20]

The amino acid D version of Phenylalanine is supposed to help preserve the breakdown of endorphin.

 

[Frankdee20]

It takes a very long time to fight post acute withdrawal syndrome, you won’t eat, sleep, ***t, or feel right for a long time.