B Complex Deficiency, Sympathetic Nervous Dysregulation, & Starvation

[peateats1]

I don't know how to help you necessarily on balancing b vitamins, but I just wanted to say I'm going through this exact thing right now.

In October I went from fully functioning active though tired, human being to not being able to walk to my kitchen. My muscles were burning and cramping constantly, adrenaline was constantly shooting through my veins, my limbs felt like they were made of concrete, I had shortness of breath, chest pain, neck pain where my veins are in my neck, blood pressure was 158/108, heart rate of 130 at rest, panic attacks, light sensitivity, wanted to kill myself, creatine kinase of 5000, couldn't eat without throwing up, etc etc.
I too was trying to ramp up my metabolism (for several years) by using excessive amounts of coffee aspirin niacinimide progesterone and pregnenolone and was only eating milk oj sugar fruits gelatin small amounts of beef and rice. I completely neglected nutrition and my sole goal became eradicating pufa from my body...I went extremely low fat only getting like 6 g of total fat per day. I've had a history of eating disorders so I think this type of personality can make it easy to take any kind of diet to an extreme.
To lower adrenaline I started using small doses of thyroid(I've been hypo for a long time)and I'd spend all day taking small bites of cottage cheese and coconut oil then sipping oj milk. If I hadn't had thyroid though, nothing would've calmed the adrenaline I don't think.

Once I lowered adrenaline enough to be able to keep food down, I started eating eggs, fish, potato juice, oj, milk, mushrooms, cocoa powder, etc and cut way down on using plain sugar.
I stopped all supplements except thyroid magnesium occasional b1 and niacinimide, and small amounts of aspirin.
Any activity still wipes me out, but I'm much better than I was even just a week ago.

Sorry if I'm hijacking your thread but I just wanted to post a similar word of caution to those who are on this diet...don't neglect nutrition or you could pay with your life...it can be that bad.

 

[tara]

Do you recall reading anything about how to choose the dose of liver?

I'm not Amazoniac, but I think Peat recommended something like 4-6 oz/week.

 

[Creative Nature]

@Creative Nature — Not necessarily endotoxin related but when you eat or take your supplements, do you notice any digestive disturbances or pain at all?

After I've eaten "too much" (which might be very little), my adrenergic symptoms start, but no disturbances or pain, other than a tiny hint of nausea.

Supplements don't usually trigger any response, though when I'm at my worst, almost anything can kick off the symptoms.

I was dealing with similar symptoms as you this past September and October, even dropped weight because food seemed to make my symptoms worse. Putting a pinch of salt under my tongue and drinking coconut water with sucanat helped, but wasn't a cure. The adrenaline attacks got so bad that I started passing out daily and was in and out if the hospital.

!!

It all started with B supplementation for me, though. It caused poor sleep/insomnia, and heart palpitations and spiking blood pressure soon followed.

Interesting. For me, B1 fixes those symptoms. But too much B3 can make them worse, so it's not a stretch for me to believe that someone stressed, nutritionally depleted, etc. could find some B vitamins too stimulating.

Which Bs were you taking?

My doctor prescribed l-theanine for the adrenaline symptoms, said it was like a natural Xanax, but it made my blood pressure skyrocket and I'd pass out.

I reacted well to theanine when I was healthy. Tried it again a few months ago and it messed me up almost as badly as it did you.

Anyway, I hope you find a solution soon. It's miserable!

Thanks. Good to hear you found a way out.

 

[peateats1]

Paging Dr. Lonsdale...

Dysautonomia and Hypoxia- Hormones Matter

This is super informative, thank you for posting!

 

[Creative Nature]

Known anti- cortisol agents

Aspirin, glycine, red light

Thanks. I don't tolerate much aspirin, but I eat a good amount of gelatin and glycine when I can. When I'm not too depleted, red light feels like it's lowering stress hormones.

 

[Creative Nature]

Have you had a go at logging your diet - what you actually manage to eat - for a few days to get a rough idea of what you are getting from it, and specifically look for any other micros you may be low in?

Not recently. Past logging (at a time when I ate a similar diet, but wasn't having difficulty eating) showed no deficiencies, though in view of my history, I may require more of some nutrients than I realize.

If you have an extended period with lots of refined calories, which you think resulted in B deficiencies, maybe it's resulted in other deficiencies too?

Very likely. Thanks.

Then supplementing B's could further deplete other essentials. I like Amazoniac's idea of seeing to fat-soluble vitamins and other nutrition. All the essential minerals are important - check that you are getting them all. Zinc deficiency can reduce appetite. Mg deficiency has many effects, including increased susceptibility to stress.

When I can eat, I get what appear to be good amounts of the alkali minerals (fruit juice, dairy, salt), as well as zinc (oysters and beef), copper (shellfish), and selenium (shellfish). The catch, of course, is that I often can't eat much.

I'd guess that the mineral in which I've most likely been deficient is magnesium. For months, I've supplemented enough so that I get at least the RDA, no matter what, and much more when I can eat. Not clear, though, if I'm getting enough to meet my individual requirement.

Also, if you pay attention to symptoms and intuition, is there anything you are eating that is working against you in a serious way? Could there be a specific allergy or intolerance that hinders you? Again, not to say this applies to you, but if I eat dairy every day, after a few days I feel unwell and lose energy. Could there be something?

I have stopped and reintroduced every food in my current diet several times over the years, and I haven't observed any clear signs of allergies/intolerances. But I'll keep these questions in mind.

Are there foods or ways of preparing them that make them easier to eat? Do super-palatable recipes help?

I'll keep these questions in mind, too. As best I can tell, just ingesting enough food sets off my sympathetic response. Protein is by far the worst culprit, but the other macros can trigger symptoms as well.

Good luck.

Thank you.

 

[Creative Nature]

You sound like you have dysautonomia to be honest.

Thanks, quite possible. @charlie's posts discussing Dr. Lonsdale's work link dysautonomia to B1 deficiency.

 

[peateats1]

Not recently. Past logging (at a time when I ate a similar diet, but wasn't having difficulty eating) showed no deficiencies, though in view of my history, I may require more of some nutrients than I realize.



Very likely. Thanks.



When I can eat, I get what appear to be good amounts of the alkali minerals (fruit juice, dairy, salt), as well as zinc (oysters and beef), copper (shellfish), and selenium (shellfish). The catch, of course, is that I often can't eat much.

I'd guess that the mineral in which I've most likely been deficient is magnesium. For months, I've supplemented enough so that I get at least the RDA, no matter what, and much more when I can eat. Not clear, though, if I'm getting enough to meet my individual requirement.



I have stopped and reintroduced every food in my current diet several times over the years, and I haven't observed any clear signs of allergies/intolerances. But I'll keep these questions in mind.



I'll keep these questions in mind, too. As best I can tell, just ingesting enough food sets off my sympathetic response. Protein is by far the worst culprit, but the other macros can trigger symptoms as well.



Thank you.

Magnesium deficiency can can cause loss of appetite and nausea.

 

[Creative Nature]

Just found this thread where a lady with dysautonomia through the knowledge from Dr. Lonsdale was able to pull herself out of it with topical TTFD and magnesium.

Vitamin B1 And Dysautonomia

Thanks a lot for digging up these links. I haven't finished reading the second, but the first could easily be describing me. And it's helpful to see how someone with GI symptoms beat dysautonomia with TTFD, which has worked much better for me than thiamine HCl. Also curious about topical use...

 

[Creative Nature]

@peateats1: What a nightmare. Thanks for sharing your story. I hope newcomers to Ray Peat's work get the message.

I'm curious about a few aspects of your story...

Did you identify any particular nutrient deficiencies?

Assuming you did have some deficiencies, I'm impressed that thyroid worked for you rather than making things worse.

How much do you think nibbling on food all day helped you?

Glad you found a remedy.

 

[Amazoniac]

Liver helps replenish nutrients at the expense of potentially suppressing metabolism. It seems that the Biskinds resolved this tradeoff in favor of nutrition, giving their patients hefty doses of desiccated liver. Do you recall reading anything about how to choose the dose of liver?

You can find desiccated liver products on the marked that was partially defatted, these must be less contaminated with poisonoids, but on each processing there's risk of damaging nutrients.

Do you tend to crave liver? It can guide you on dosing. Otherwise you can go by copper content because it's likely to be the limiting nutrient. On Gerson's book he included some analyses of liver extracts, its concentration can be compared to manganese, which makes us suspect that it's greatly reduced if it was sourced from ruminants and it's unlikely for these to be considerably better extracted than the water-soluble vitamins. They has now switched to desiccated liver powders and their material should give more clues on amounts.

 

[theLaw]

You're right. Thanks. I was never able to eat enough to recover from starving in the spring, and insufficient food intake is likely at least part of the reason my body reacts so poorly to stress. But I currently don't eat much fat, and might be able to squeeze in a little more CO or beef fat without either inducing adrenergic symptoms or getting run over by the Randle cycle.



Well said. Lowering cortisol is tricky. I have difficulty eating, can't tolerate pregnenolone or DHEA, and am wary of too much niacinamide because (as mentioned above) it somehow seems to increase my B1 deficiency symptoms. Did you have any cortisol blockers in mind?



Thanks for these tips. I'll read up on them.




I've been closer to 2500 May through October. And lately? Don't ask. And I need extra calories for my height and lean mass.



Thanks.

You might consider that a re-feed with only "optimal" foods might not be effective if it doesn't meet your energetic requirements.

"To hell with the cheese, I want out of the trap"

Why It Might Be Better To Temporarily Gain Weight After Diet Improvement

Abdominal Fat Is A Phase Folliwing The End Of Calorie Restriction

Reversion To Normoglycaemia Occurs More Often Than Progression To Diabetes

Fat Is An Organ

 

[SQu]

Protein is by far the worst culprit,

Sorry to hear and I hope you find a solution. Protein being the worst suggests blood sugar may be at least part of the problem. Did you mention dairy tolerance anywhere? Ice cream has been a medicine to me a few times for a few things including low blood sugar migraines (downward spiral with nausea and food aversion) and it's helping me again now. Given gut questions it would have to be gum and other irritant-free.

I rinse my mouth with (and then swallow) a solution of sodium bicarb a few times a day. Feels good, and I can easily do it more often. Thanks for the tip.

Bicarb helps me so much I don't leave the house without it. For heat tolerance, and flushing, but I find those are also blood sugar related (perhaps there's a pointer to progesterone here too?), so there could be a link.

Best of luck

 

[peateats1]

@peateats1:

I didnt identify any particular nutrient deficiencies via blood testing or anything, but due to my symptoms I figured I was low in some key vitamins and minerals and eating nutrient dense foods made me feel better. Also when the er gave me a magnesium drip, it helped with some of my symptoms.
The thyroid I used in very small amounts, like an eighth of a cynoplus tablet two times per day, it calmed the adrenaline down enough to give me an appetite somewhat and allow me to keep food down. Larger amounts of thyroid would've been too much to handle.
Nibbling on food helped because at that point if I tried to eat a "meal" it would just sit in my stomach and potentially I'd end up throwing it up. The small amounts of food were able to digest without giving me nausea or being too taxing on my system...while providing some nutrition at the same time.
I'm still working on healing, and still have setbacks I guess, but my symptoms have improved drastically. Im still doing small amounts of thyroid, and that in combo with good nutrition my temps are near 98.6 each day.

I'm curious about a few aspects of your story...

Did you identify any particular nutrient deficiencies?

Assuming you did have some deficiencies, I'm impressed that thyroid worked for you rather than making things worse.

How much do you think nibbling on food all day helped you?

Glad you found a remedy.

 

[Jennifer]

If I hadn't had thyroid though, nothing would've calmed the adrenaline I don't think.

Same here!

Which Bs were you taking?

I was taking a liquid B complex. I needed to get my B12 level up and it was one of the only B12s I could find that didn't have junk excipients and cost an unreasonable amount (I'm looking at you Global Healing Center) so I thought having the extra Bs along with it would just be a bonus since there were members here sharing positive experiences with them. I should have known better. I react poorly to most isolated supplements, and I already had a ton of energy to start with.

Good to hear you found a way out.

Thanks! :)

 

[Creative Nature]

I'm not Amazoniac, but I think Peat recommended something like 4-6 oz/week.

Thanks, good to know. I assume this is his general recommendation, not directed at people with any specific condition.

 

[Creative Nature]

Magnesium deficiency can can cause loss of appetite and nausea.

My appetite is not as bad as my calorie intake would suggest, and any nausea I get is quite mild. The bigger problem is that often the adrenergic response to eating is so bad, and gets so much worse the more I eat, that I can't bring myself to eat much even if hungry. That said, magnesium is great.

 

[Creative Nature]

You can find desiccated liver products on the marked that was partially defatted, these must be less contaminated with poisonoids, but on each processing there's risk of damaging nutrients.

Good to know.

Do you tend to crave liver?

YES. Like an 8 year-old craves ice cream.

It can guide you on dosing. Otherwise you can go by copper content because it's likely to be the limiting nutrient.

Very good. And thanks for the lead to Gerson, a fellow liver lover.

 

[Creative Nature]

You might consider that a re-feed with only "optimal" foods might not be effective if it doesn't meet your energetic requirements.

"To hell with the cheese, I want out of the trap"

Thanks. You, @RatRancher, and @Kelj have convinced me that inadequate calories are likely a big part of the reason why I did not recover fully after my hospital stay in April, and why, despite my progress, I responded so badly to minor stresses.

For now, I have very limited ability to increase food intake, but as soon as I can, I will.

 

[theLaw]

Thanks. You, @RatRancher, and @Kelj have convinced me that inadequate calories are likely a big part of the reason why I did not recover fully after my hospital stay in April, and why, despite my progress, I responded so badly to minor stresses.

For now, I have very limited ability to increase food intake, but as soon as I can, I will.

I've been testing something similar to a re-feed (without any restrictions), and here are a few things that helped:

1. Salt - You've already seen my posts about this, but I suspect it's having an effect similar to Thyroid at larger doses throughout the day. Haidut posted that 50 years ago the average salt intake was 12-15G per day (2-3 Tbsp)

2. Carrot (large) every day.

3. Something to block pufa release (Niacinamide/aspirin or even Vitamin E)

Keep in mind, I have zero restrictions on what I eat. Instead, I am testing supplements to see how much of the damage I can mitigate. Oddly enough, I find myself craving more chocolate milk and juices, and am increasing them without even trying. But the first week, I had a ton of digestive distress, so I was eating carrots constantly.