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Vitamins B1 & B2 Are Required For Estrogen Inactivation By Liver

Amazoniac

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Would it be better than supplements of b vitamins and fat soluble vitamins? Sounds like it would be (a lot) more expensive .
I think so. Some people have prolonged deficiencies that start to affect all nutrients, it's hard to replenish the ones that you're most depleted without a good foundation, at some point isolated nutrients can be depleting when not supported as a whole because it's all interdependent. On top of that there are the unrecognized factors that our abductor talked about here. That's why I mentioned that any processing has to be careful. Searching for "history discovery nutrients timeline" or something like that can be enough to make you question what do we actually know.
 

johnwester130

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Aug 6, 2015
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what is the best b vitamin supplement, i hear you cry ?

in my opinion, it is a british pharma product called Vitamin B compound

20mg Nicotinamide,
2mg Pyridoxine Hyrochloride,
2mg Riboflavine,
4.85mg Thiamine Mononitrate

the perfect low dose. no methylated versions. and no weird ones like PABA, choline/inositol
 

Amazoniac

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Stolen from HDD. Not for everyone, only for those that have a miniature of Travis on your heads using it as scarecrow against dementia;

http://www.oakwayhealthcenter.com/store/MET_Nutritional-Influence-on-Estrogen-Metabolism.pdf

"Glucuronidation is one of the key Phase II liver detoxification pathways for estrogens and other toxins. Glucuronic acid is conjugated with the estrogen to facilitate its elimination from the body.[1] Unfortunately, some intestinal bacteria (mostly pathogenic) possess an enzyme, b-glucuronidase, that uncouples the bond between excreted estrogen and glucuronic acid in the large intestine, allowing the estrogen to reenter circulation (enterohepatic recirculation).[13] Not surprising is the finding that excess b-glucuronidase activity is associated with an increased cancer risk, including breast cancer.[14] The activity of b-glucuronidase is increased when the diet is high in fat and low in fiber"

"the hormones used to fatten livestock and promote milk production are found in meat and milk products, thereby increasing one’s exposure to environmental estrogens"

"dietary fiber, especially lignin, can bind unconjugated estrogens in the digestive tract, which are then excreted in the feces. Second, dietary fiber can beneficially affect the composition of intestinal bacteria and reduce intestinal b-glucuronidase activity, resulting in a lowered deconjugation of estrogen and reduced reabsorption.[37]"

"Inadequate dietary protein may lead to decreases in overall cytochrome P450 activity, including cytochrome P450-1A2, which detoxifies estradiol.[40] Rice fortified with lysine and threonine is a source of protein frequently used to nutritionally support hepatic detoxification function, because of its low allergy potential.[41]"

"Low serum vitamin E is associated with elevated estrogen levels, and supplementation may reduce symptoms of PMS.62 Vitamin E inhibits growth of breast cancer cells, possibly by inhibiting the expression of vascular endothelial growth factor, which discourages georgiogenesis.63 Furthermore, vitamin E deficiency may negatively affect cytochrome P450 function, thus impacting estrogen detoxification."

"Magnesium is an essential cofactor for the COMT enzyme, and therefore optimizes the methylation and excretion of catechol estrogens.[7] Magnesium also promotes estrogen detoxification by directly increasing the activity of glucuronyl transferase, an enzyme involved in hepatic glucuronidation. Ovarian hormones influence magnesium levels, triggering decreases at certain times during the menstrual cycle as well as altering the calcium to magnesium ratio. These cyclical changes can produce many of the well-known symptoms of PMS in women who are deficient in magnesium and/or calcium.[64]"
@mayweatherking

"I3C is a naturally occurring compound derived from cruciferous vegetables such as broccoli, Brussels sprouts, and cabbage that actively promotes the breakdown of estrogen to the beneficial metabolite, 2-OH. Therefore, I3C is protective to estrogen-sensitive tissues and may be beneficial to those with health issues related to estrogen dominance."
@Elephanto

"It has been demonstrated that elevated intracellular concentrations of the active form of vitamin B6 can lead to significantly decreased gene transcription responses when estrogen binds to the ER.[74] By modulating estrogen-induced gene expression in this way, vitamin B6 can attenuate the biological effects of estrogen. B vitamins also play a role in the prevention of cancer because they are crucial for DNA synthesis and repair as well as the process of DNA methylation, which is essential for DNA stability and integrity and is an important regulator of gene expression."​
 

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tca300

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Thiamine is one of the vitamins in question, but liver is a very poor source of it. So using orange juice, or other foods high in it, or a supplement, seems necessary vs just liver.
 
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Amazoniac

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Thiamine is one of the vitamins in question, but liver is a very poor source of it.
The angelords here had studied your work in depth:
"[The diet provided] contains 140 Gm. of protein,[5] 365 Gm. of carbohydrate and 175 Gm. of fat — a total of about 3,500 calories. The diet consists chiefly of meat, milk, eggs, fruit and green vegetables. Eggs are served with breakfast; meat, fish or poultry is served at dinner and supper; milk is served three times with meals and twice between meals, with 25 Gm. of yeast, in the form of milknog. If the patient eats these foods, considered basic to the program, the remainder of the diet is largely a matter of choice." "Yeast is fed in graded increasing dosage until 25 Gm. are fed twice daily. For patients who do not tolerate yeast (because of distention, diarrhea or nausea) an orally administered B complex preparation7 is substituted. Thiamine hydrochloride (5 mg. daily) and unconcentrated liver extract (5 cc. twice weekly) are injected intramuscularly. If the patient shows signs of severe polyneuritis or of mental confusion thiamine hydrochloride (100 mg.) and nicotinamide (300 mg.) are administered daily parenterally."
 

Amazoniac

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EFFECT OF ESTROGEN ON THE UTILIZATION OF THE VITAMIN B COMPLEX

"Study of the literature reveals that the effect of estrogen observed in these cases is not entirely unexpected. We have previously noted the tendency to exacerbation of the symptoms of pellagra during the menstrual cycle. One of the early symptoms observed in all these patients was a tender and painful nasal mucosa. Mortimer, Wright and Collip [5] observed a cyclic change in the nasal mucosa of monkeys (Macaca mulatta) at intervals of about twenty-eight days, the peaks being chiefly at "premenstrual time." This response is produced in the intact animal by administration of crystalline estrone (theelin), estriol (theelol) and emmenin. The change is seen clearly in the middle and inferior conchae as reddening and/or swelling of the mucosa. The effect is produced in immature and mature male and female animals and in female castrates.
The lesions noted in the mucous membrane of the mouth are possibly similar to those observed by Ziskin and Blackberg.[6] Castration of the female rhesus monkey causes alteration of the arrangement of the prickle cell layer of the alveolae gingivae and tissue degeneration, and hypophysectomy causes marked degenerative changes in gingival and oral mucous membranes. Castration of male rhesus monkeys causes changes in the gingival and oral mucous membranes resembling the effects of injection of estrogens namely, hyperkeratinization."

"There is ample evidence that estrogens depress the activity of the anterior lobe of the pituitary or that they may cause actual anatomic changes if administered to excess. Cramer and Horning [7] observed that mice treated over a long period with estrone manifested a condition of cachexia similar to that seen in Simmonds' disease. At autopsy they found degenerative changes in the adrenal glands, hypertrophy of the islands of Langerhans and tumors (chromophobe adenomas) of the pituitary, as well as functional changes resembling those occurring after hypophysectomy.[8] Morphologically, hyperplasia of the anterior lobe occurs, in which, however, the number of chromophil cells is greatly diminished and the enlarged anterior lobe consists mainly of chromophobe cells. There is intense congestion of the anterior lobe, which may lead to hemorrhages, together with extensive production of colloid. Lacassagne [9] confirmed the report by Cramer and Horning. McEwen, Selve and Collip [10] observed adenoma of the pituitary both in male and in female rats given estrone over a long period."

"The appearance of tenderness and pain in the nasal mucosa appears to be a symptom of the full physiologic effect of estrogen similar to the changes in the vaginal mucosa, particularly in persons with a vitamin complex deficiency."
Zeus, if you happen to read this, I didn't tag you but a liver extract was mentioned. Again. It's not something that I have affinity with, it's just that I read so often how successful it's when people can't figure what's going on, that I believe it should provide a valuable foundation for recovery and isolated supplementation.
 
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raypeatclips

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EFFECT OF ESTROGEN ON THE UTILIZATION OF THE VITAMIN B COMPLEX

"Study of the literature reveals that the effect of estrogen observed in these cases is not entirely unexpected. We have previously noted the tendency to exacerbation of the symptoms of pellagra during the menstrual cycle. One of the early symptoms observed in all these patients was a tender and painful nasal mucosa. Mortimer, Wright and Collip [5] observed a cyclic change in the nasal mucosa of monkeys (Macaca mulatta) at intervals of about twenty-eight days, the peaks being chiefly at "premenstrual time." This response is produced in the intact animal by administration of crystalline estrone (theelin), estriol (theelol) and emmenin. The change is seen clearly in the middle and inferior conchae as reddening and/or swelling of the mucosa. The effect is produced in immature and mature male and female animals and in female castrates.
The lesions noted in the mucous membrane of the mouth are possibly similar to those observed by Ziskin and Blackberg.[6] Castration of the female rhesus monkey causes alteration of the arrangement of the prickle cell layer of the alveolae gingivae and tissue degeneration, and hypophysectomy causes marked degenerative changes in gingival and oral mucous membranes. Castration of male rhesus monkeys causes changes in the gingival and oral mucous membranes resembling the effects of injection of estrogens namely, hyperkeratinization."

"There is ample evidence that estrogens depress the activity of the anterior lobe of the pituitary or that they may cause actual anatomic changes if administered to excess. Cramer and Horning [7] observed that mice treated over a long period with estrone manifested a condition of cachexia similar to that seen in Simmonds' disease. At autopsy they found degenerative changes in the adrenal glands, hypertrophy of the islands of Langerhans and tumors (chromophobe adenomas) of the pituitary, as well as functional changes resembling those occurring after hypophysectomy.[8] Morphologically, hyperplasia of the anterior lobe occurs, in which, however, the number of chromophil cells is greatly diminished and the enlarged anterior lobe consists mainly of chromophobe cells. There is intense congestion of the anterior lobe, which may lead to hemorrhages, together with extensive production of colloid. Lacassagne [9] confirmed the report by Cramer and Horning. McEwen, Selve and Collip [10] observed adenoma of the pituitary both in male and in female rats given estrone over a long period."

"The appearance of tenderness and pain in the nasal mucosa appears to be a symptom of the full physiologic effect of estrogen similar to the changes in the vaginal mucosa, particularly in persons with a vitamin complex deficiency."
Zeus, if you happen to read this, I didn't tag you but a liver extract was mentioned. Again. It's not something that I have affinity with, it's just that I read so often how successful it's when people can't figure what's going on, that I believe it should provide a valuable foundation for recovery and isolated supplementation.

Why not just eat liver?
 

Antonello

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@haidut If 2months Energin supplementation aren’t enough in helping the liver clear out estrogen, would be smart supplement extra thiamine and r5p for achieve the benefits in the study?
 

haidut

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@haidut If 2months Energin supplementation aren’t enough in helping the liver clear out estrogen, would be smart supplement extra thiamine and r5p for achieve the benefits in the study?

It could help, yes. Caffeine and vitamin K are other good nutrients for the liver.
 

Luann

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I drink coffee for the niacin but once my niacinamide comes in I'm cutting way back on the coffee. It doesn't sit right with me any more.
 

invictus

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Mar 19, 2013
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There have been several request to remove vitamin from the Energin formulation and also not much focus on its effects by us forum members. However, this older study, which also cites other studies, reminds us that thiamine (B1) and riboflavin (B2) are ESSENTIAL / MANDATORY for the liver to be able to properly inactivate estrogen and excrete it. Without sufficient levels of BOTH of these vitamins, estradiol inactivation does not occur. In other words, deficiency of either one effectively aborts the estradiol inactivation process.
Most medical professionals only talk about thiamine in terms of beri-beri disease and I personally know of no doctor who considers riboflavin deficiency a possibility in modern days. With that in mind, I wonder how much of the symptoms of beri-beri and alcoholic condtions like Wernicke-Korsakoff encephalopathy (both of which are caused by thiamine deficiency) are actually symptoms of estrogen toxicity. Note, this is pure speculation on my part, but at least alcoholic disease is known to involve accumulation of estrogen due to the damage to the liver by alcohol.
Anyways, the study (and the others it cites) found that B1 and B2 are essential, but other vitamins are not. Here are quotes that describe both groups.

http://www.jbc.org/content/154/1/79.full.pdf

"...Our results clearly demonstrate that, of the vitamins tested, riboflavin and thiamine are essential in
the metabolism of esradiol by liver slices. The inactivation of esradiol is dependent upon the concentration of these vitamins in the liver
."

"...In this category of “ineffective” vitamins are pyridoxine, pantothenic acid, biotin, and vitamin A (Table VI)."
 

invictus

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haidut,

I'm 68, on testosterone replacement, because my T was near the bottom of the lab range and I felt like I was dying. After almost a month, feeling much better and nocturnal erections are even returning, but I've gained 12 lbs and feel bloated from over aromatizing. Started back on B1 & B2. Any idea how long it takes before I might start to see increased urination and weight loss? Thanks for any insights or links you can share.
 

haidut

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haidut,

I'm 68, on testosterone replacement, because my T was near the bottom of the lab range and I felt like I was dying. After almost a month, feeling much better and nocturnal erections are even returning, but I've gained 12 lbs and feel bloated from over aromatizing. Started back on B1 & B2. Any idea how long it takes before I might start to see increased urination and weight loss? Thanks for any insights or links you can share.

I think B1 and B2 may not be enough on their own. The issue is that they are only helping the liver excrete estrogen that makes it to the liver. They have no effect on how much estrogen is synthesized or that it is released in tissues. So, you can have a lot of tissue-bound estrogen and not much in the blood, and this can lead to bloating, varicose veins, heart issues, etc. As such, the liver can't do much even if it quickly excretes whatever estrogen passes through it. You have to either reduce the T dose to a point where it does not aromatize or combine with something like pregnenolone/progesterone or even a pharma AI to control the aromatization. Otherwise, all this T may not help much except for the mental/mood benefits.
 

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