Vitamins B1 & B2 Are Required For Estrogen Inactivation By Liver

[Amazoniac]

DIMINUTION IN ABILITY OF THE LIVER TO INACTIVATE ESTRONE IN VITAMIN B COMPLEX DEFICIENCY | Science

 

[Ella]

Eating Liver is good for liver. Good sources of all b-vitamins and vitamin A plus much more.

How many women and for that matter, men are hanging our for their weekly feed of offal. By the list of complaints on this forum, very few. I thought I was having too much liver eating it once a week. I found I need more - who would have guessed.

 

[Braveheart]

Eating Liver is good for liver. Good sources of all b-vitamins and vitamin A plus much more.

How many women and for that matter, men are hanging our for their weekly feed of offal. By the list of complaints on this forum, very few. I thought I was having too much liver eating it once a week. I found I need more - who would have guessed.

love liver...trying not to overdo it, if that's possible

 

[milk_lover]

Eating Liver is good for liver. Good sources of all b-vitamins and vitamin A plus much more.

How many women and for that matter, men are hanging our for their weekly feed of offal. By the list of complaints on this forum, very few. I thought I was having too much liver eating it once a week. I found I need more - who would have guessed.

I want to eat liver but I live in Korea right now and I can hardly find any. I only eat halal/kosher so even more difficult..

 

[Ella]

trying not to overdo it, if that's possible

The research is showing that perhaps we are under-doing it. I think if you are healthy and don't have those SNPs that make it difficult to convert the beta carotenes to retinol, there are still concerns about consuming a high amount of beta-carotene in the diet. I have my doubts that we could do away with preformed Vitamin A by just eating tons of coloured fruits and vegetables to make the necessary retinol. It seems McDougall and his followers do just fine. Even in an ideal non- stressful and pristine environment, I doubt we could experience exceptional health just living on fruits and vegetables. If you are like Chris Masterjohn who does possess those SNPs then you need a lot more Vitamin A and how much liver you can eat is going to be variable depending on your health status.

It seems Peat is right again about beta-carotene. Researchers at Ohio State Uni found molecules derived from beta-carotene routinely eaten are commonly found in the blood of those who eat these common foods. These molecules from these foods we eat actually block actions of retinol that play crucial role in vision, bone and skin health, metabolism and immune function.

So eating a ton of carrots, pumpkin, sweet potatoes and leafy greens is just not going to cut it when it comes to retinol.

So the issue is not so much the inefficient conversion of beta-carotene to retinol or the shear quantity of beta-carotenes to meet our retinol needs. The situation is more bleak and that is; consuming large amounts or even moderate amounts of these orange, yellow and green vegetables and fruits antagonises and disrupts at least the whole body metabolism and action of Retinol.

As long as you are mindful of your zinc and copper ratio and Vitamin A/D ratio then you should be fine. I like to balance my liver with oysters and keep the ratio when designing my meals at a 10:1 ratio. I monitor my levels of zinc and copper and these usually guide me with the vitamin A. D is the biggest challenge for me which am supplementing a little.

Peat says those with fast metabolisms can eat more than those with slow/hypothyroid and obese. Once a week is for slow metabolism. You will know you are overdoing the vitamin A as you will experience headaches and bone pain. If this happens then you know you have gone too far and should stop immediately.

 

[Braveheart]

Ella, thank you for your comments...always look forwad to them. Liver is a power house of vits...I can probably use lots of A because of my daily sun exposure here...prefer chicken liver over beef but chickens nowhere are raised well...all beef here grass fed...most of my favorite fruit is orange...melon, papaya...don't eat much carrot...have often wondered about how much D am getting from sun here (am 72 and well tanned) that to help me w D to A ratio,1 to 5...no testing avail...so it's sun and liver for these two major nutrients (plus B's) Basically I'm wingin' it w help of tracking app. Thanks!

 

[tomisonbottom]

As long as you are mindful of your zinc and copper ratio and Vitamin A/D ratio then you should be fine. I like to balance my liver with oysters and keep the ratio when designing my meals at a 10:1 ratio. I monitor my levels of zinc and copper and these usually guide me with the vitamin A. D is the biggest challenge for me which am supplementing a little.

Peat says those with fast metabolisms can eat more than those with slow/hypothyroid and obese. Once a week is for slow metabolism. You will know you are overdoing the vitamin A as you will experience headaches and bone pain. If this happens then you know you have gone too far and should stop immediately.

It seems headaches could be caused by such a wide variety of things, such as low blood sugar, or high estrogen, etc. Wouldn't orange calluses be a good sign of too much vitamin A?

Do you measure your zinc and copper with blood tests? And curious, where does the 10 to 1 ration come from?

 

[Amazoniac]

https://academic.oup.com/ajcp/article-pdf/16/12/737/4992221/ajcpath16-0737.pdf

in acute experiments, in the rat, thiamine and riboflavin alone, among the B vitamins, are adequate to permit hepatic destruction of estrogen.65,67,69 The presence of methionine appears essential to this function.46,81

It cannot be too strongly emphasized that adequate amounts of a satisfactory natural source of the nutritional factors must be included in the therapeutic regime. Failures will occur if only synthetic vitamin preparations are used, or if the amount of naturally-occurring material is insignificant, as in several commercial preparations which contain only a few grains of brewers yeast.

 

[Amazoniac]

EFFECT OF VITAMIN B COMPLEX DEFICIENCY, CONTROLLED INANITION AND METHIONINE ON INACTIVATION OF ESTROGEN BY THE LIVER 1 | Endocrinology | Oxford Academic

Summary:
"Pellets of estrone were implanted in the spleen of castrated female rats. While being maintained on a normal diet the animals inactivated the absorbed estrone, as judged by the anestrous condition of the vaginal smear. When such animals were placed on a vitamin B complex free diet the ensuing acute deficiency decreased the ability of the liver to inactivate estrone, and the vaginal smears became cornified. Paired inanition control animals, limited to the same amount of food consumed by the deficient animals but receiving B vitamins, also failed to inactivate estrone. Therefore, the effect of acute vitamin B complex deficiency in producing a failure of the liver to inactivate estrone seems to be due to the concomitant inanition. In other animals, limited to three grams of food per day, but receiving B vitamins, a failure to inactivate estrone was also encountered. Supplements of methionine were without effect in preventing the occurrence of vaginal cornification in either the B complex deficient animals or in animals with restricted food intake. The use of the various types of liver damage in studying estrogen inactivation by the liver is discussed as differences exist both in the procedures used and the results."


"It is known that the presence of liver damage may produce an upset in estrogen metabolism."
"Experimentally, liver damage and estrogen metabolism has been studied by three means:
1) damaging the liver by toxic agents;
2) acute deficiency of the vitamin B complex;
3) low protein (casein) diets."

1)

"With reference to the first method it has been shown that the administration of carbon tetrachloride will impair the inactivation of estrogen (Talbot, 1939; Pincus and Martin, 1940)."​

2)

"Utilizing the second method, three groups of workers reported that an acute deficiency of the vitamin B complex interfered with the inactivation of estrogen by the liver. Two of these groups utilized the technique of implanting pellets of estrone in the spleen (Biskind and Biskind, 1942; Shipley and Gyorgy, 1944). However, no inanition controls were utilized in their experiments. In our present studies, inanition controls, limited to the same amount of food consumed by the vitamin B complex deficient rats during the previous day, failed to inactivate estrone at the same time as the deficient rats. Thus, the effect of a diet deficient in the vitamin B complex on the inactivation of estrone is not due to a lack of these vitamins per se, but is due to the secondary factor of concomitant inanition."
"Neither our vitamin B complex deficient animals or inanition controls went into estrus as early as Biskind's rats. Shipley and Gyorgy (1944) have had a similar experience, but using six rats supplied by M. S. Biskind they obtained results comparable to his earlier experiments. Evidently there is either a strain difference among rats or a difference in the body stores of the B vitamins, particularly thiamine. The addition of yeast or B vitamins to the diet of the deficient animals results in the ability to again inactivate estrone. In such cases, however, food intake and body weight also increases. One can just restrict food intake (Exp. 2), and although the B vitamins are still being supplied, the animals will fail to inactivate estrone."​

3)

"Utilizing the third method, the effect of liver damage produced by low casein diets has been studied by a number of workers. Originally one group reported that in the presence of a deficiency of thiamine or riboflavin liver slices failed to inactivate estradiol (Singher, Kensler, Taylor, Rhoads and Unna, 1944). No inanition controls were studied. Later, using a low casein diet the liver slices still failed to inactivate estradiol even though thiamine and riboflavin were being administered (Unna, Singher, Kensler, Taylor and Rhoads, 1944). Other studies have involved the implantation of pellets into the spleen. When such animals were fed a low casein-high fat diet 56 of 91 rats failed to inactivate estrone (Gyorgy, 1945). Treatment of 8 such animals with 25% yeast in the diet produced a disappearance of the estrus (Shipley and Gyorgy, 1944). However, this is the equivalent of adding about 12.5% protein to the diet. In the second study supplements of 50 mgm. of methionine, or casein or lactalbumin digest produced a return of the estrus to the previous anestrous condition whereas a mixture of synthetic B vitamins was without effect (Gyorgy 1945). It should be remembered that a deficiency of the vitamin B complex and the ensuing inanition is an acute process and does not produce histological changes in the liver, whereas a low casein-high fat diet produces definite changes.[*] Our use of methionine is therefore not comparable to the above experiments of György."​

"In reviewing the above papers it is difficult to explain the reported effectiveness of vitamin B complex in cases of menorrhagia, metrorrhagia, cystic mastitis and premenstrual tension (Biskind, 1943; Biskind, Biskind, and Biskind, 1944). These results on patients do not coincide with experimental data on animals. The use of placebos in evaluating the therapeutic effectiveness of the B Vitamins on patients with such menstrual disorders would also be of interest. With respect to a comparison of the clinical and experimental animals studies on the inactivation of estrone the following points must be kept in mind: [*]I, Histological liver damage produced in rats does not respond to crystalline B vitamins, but may, depending on conditions, respond to yeast or methionine. If Biskind's patients fall into this group the beneficial effect they observed with B vitamins is at variance with the literature. II, The acute deficiency of the vitamin B complex in rats (cf. above) and in dogs (Drill, Shaffer and Leathern, 1943) produces a marked decrease in food intake and weight. As the patients were stated to be generally overweight (Biskind, 1943) they do not fall into this group of extreme and acute deficiency. III, A further factor that should be noted is that in the above rat experiments with pellets the estrogen is not being supplied from a normal source. Animals with pellets in our studies failed to inactivate estrogen after an average loss of 20 to 30 grams in weight. However, if the estrous cycles of thiamine deficient and inanition control rats (without pellets) are studied, estrous cycles cease with an average loss of 12 to 18 grams in weight (Drill and Burrill, 1944). Thus under conditions of acute vitamin B complex deficiency one might infer that as food intake and weight decrease the production of estrogen is interfered with before the liver fails to inactivate it. (This inference is made only for acute vitamin B complex deficiency, and not for low casein diets and needs experimental study.) IV, Under particular conditions a chronic deficiency of B vitamins will produce liver damage, as seen in pellagrins, that does not respond to synthetic B vitamins or methionine, whereas liver extract and dried stomach produces definite improvement (Gillman and Gillman, 1945a; Gillman and Gillman, 1945b; Gillman and Gillman and Brenner, 1945). In a similar liver damage in dogs, there is again a marked decrease in food intake and weight (Drill and Loomis, 1946). These results differ from those reported on patients by Biskind, both on a change in weight basis, and a lack of effect of crystalline B vitamins on the liver damage in the pellagrins."

@haidut, I suggested it already but I'm suggesting it again: ironless aqueous liver extract. I don't know the difficulties of producing such supplement, but it would be closer to what's natural, and it can be advantageous more or less for the reasons that make your vit E extract superior. Not as a substitute for your Energin, but an addition (previous post). I'm not sending you a PM because there has to be at least one "+1" to certify that I'm not crazy with this suggestion.

 

[Nighteyes]

I'm not sending you a PM because there has to be at least one "+1" to certify that I'm not crazy with this suggestion.

I will chime in with the first +1 then. Would love to swap out the liver extract I currently use for an iron-free version from Idealabs!

 

[Amazoniac]

I will chime in with the first +1 then. Would love to swap out the liver extract I currently use for an iron-free version from Idealabs!

Well, I'm not alone <finger snap and high-pitch sound>..

 

[Waynish]

What about the dried stomach? Any sources you know for these various extracts? Sounds like something TCM would have.

 

[Amazoniac]

What about the dried stomach? Any sources you know for these various extracts? Sounds like something TCM would have.

The popular supplements of hydrochloric acid with pepsin? Other than that, I don't know if rennet has any value unless you're a baby bullgarian.

 

[GAF]

My high dose B2 experiment is at 3 weeks and 4 days. Did lot of labor type work yesterday so I took 250 morning 250 afternoon and the 400 about 8pm.

My body is working substantially better than it ever has. No downsides. Just have to eat a bit more. It has been crazy unbelievable the impact on me.

 

[Mossy]

The effect is similar to the one from methylene blue. Ingesting either one of these and exposing yourself to bright red or sunlight generates too much ROS. Under some conditions (cancer) that is highly desirable but I think for most people it is not something you want to keep doing on a regular basis.

Coincidentally, I've just started taking low dose B1(25mg) in the AM, and using red light(LED) anywhere from 1 to 10 hours after supplementing. In addition, I've just received and would like to start taking B2(R5P). Would you know, is there a margin of time between supplementing B1/B2 and doing red light, or a low enough dose, that would prevent this ROS effect? Thanks for any input.

 

[haidut]

Coincidentally, I've just started taking low dose B1(25mg) in the AM, and using red light(LED) anywhere from 1 to 10 hours after supplementing. In addition, I've just received and would like to start taking B2(R5P). Would you know, is there a margin of time between supplementing B1/B2 and doing red light, or a low enough dose, that would prevent this ROS effect? Thanks for any input.

I think as long as B2 dose stays at 10mg or below you should be OK even with light exposure.

 

[haidut]

EFFECT OF VITAMIN B COMPLEX DEFICIENCY, CONTROLLED INANITION AND METHIONINE ON INACTIVATION OF ESTROGEN BY THE LIVER 1 | Endocrinology | Oxford Academic

Summary:
"Pellets of estrone were implanted in the spleen of castrated female rats. While being maintained on a normal diet the animals inactivated the absorbed estrone, as judged by the anestrous condition of the vaginal smear. When such animals were placed on a vitamin B complex free diet the ensuing acute deficiency decreased the ability of the liver to inactivate estrone, and the vaginal smears became cornified. Paired inanition control animals, limited to the same amount of food consumed by the deficient animals but receiving B vitamins, also failed to inactivate estrone. Therefore, the effect of acute vitamin B complex deficiency in producing a failure of the liver to inactivate estrone seems to be due to the concomitant inanition. In other animals, limited to three grams of food per day, but receiving B vitamins, a failure to inactivate estrone was also encountered. Supplements of methionine were without effect in preventing the occurrence of vaginal cornification in either the B complex deficient animals or in animals with restricted food intake. The use of the various types of liver damage in studying estrogen inactivation by the liver is discussed as differences exist both in the procedures used and the results."


"It is known that the presence of liver damage may produce an upset in estrogen metabolism."
"Experimentally, liver damage and estrogen metabolism has been studied by three means:
1) damaging the liver by toxic agents;
2) acute deficiency of the vitamin B complex;
3) low protein (casein) diets."

1)

"With reference to the first method it has been shown that the administration of carbon tetrachloride will impair the inactivation of estrogen (Talbot, 1939; Pincus and Martin, 1940)."​

2)

"Utilizing the second method, three groups of workers reported that an acute deficiency of the vitamin B complex interfered with the inactivation of estrogen by the liver. Two of these groups utilized the technique of implanting pellets of estrone in the spleen (Biskind and Biskind, 1942; Shipley and Gyorgy, 1944). However, no inanition controls were utilized in their experiments. In our present studies, inanition controls, limited to the same amount of food consumed by the vitamin B complex deficient rats during the previous day, failed to inactivate estrone at the same time as the deficient rats. Thus, the effect of a diet deficient in the vitamin B complex on the inactivation of estrone is not due to a lack of these vitamins per se, but is due to the secondary factor of concomitant inanition."
"Neither our vitamin B complex deficient animals or inanition controls went into estrus as early as Biskind's rats. Shipley and Gyorgy (1944) have had a similar experience, but using six rats supplied by M. S. Biskind they obtained results comparable to his earlier experiments. Evidently there is either a strain difference among rats or a difference in the body stores of the B vitamins, particularly thiamine. The addition of yeast or B vitamins to the diet of the deficient animals results in the ability to again inactivate estrone. In such cases, however, food intake and body weight also increases. One can just restrict food intake (Exp. 2), and although the B vitamins are still being supplied, the animals will fail to inactivate estrone."​

3)

"Utilizing the third method, the effect of liver damage produced by low casein diets has been studied by a number of workers. Originally one group reported that in the presence of a deficiency of thiamine or riboflavin liver slices failed to inactivate estradiol (Singher, Kensler, Taylor, Rhoads and Unna, 1944). No inanition controls were studied. Later, using a low casein diet the liver slices still failed to inactivate estradiol even though thiamine and riboflavin were being administered (Unna, Singher, Kensler, Taylor and Rhoads, 1944). Other studies have involved the implantation of pellets into the spleen. When such animals were fed a low casein-high fat diet 56 of 91 rats failed to inactivate estrone (Gyorgy, 1945). Treatment of 8 such animals with 25% yeast in the diet produced a disappearance of the estrus (Shipley and Gyorgy, 1944). However, this is the equivalent of adding about 12.5% protein to the diet. In the second study supplements of 50 mgm. of methionine, or casein or lactalbumin digest produced a return of the estrus to the previous anestrous condition whereas a mixture of synthetic B vitamins was without effect (Gyorgy 1945). It should be remembered that a deficiency of the vitamin B complex and the ensuing inanition is an acute process and does not produce histological changes in the liver, whereas a low casein-high fat diet produces definite changes.[*] Our use of methionine is therefore not comparable to the above experiments of György."​

"In reviewing the above papers it is difficult to explain the reported effectiveness of vitamin B complex in cases of menorrhagia, metrorrhagia, cystic mastitis and premenstrual tension (Biskind, 1943; Biskind, Biskind, and Biskind, 1944). These results on patients do not coincide with experimental data on animals. The use of placebos in evaluating the therapeutic effectiveness of the B Vitamins on patients with such menstrual disorders would also be of interest. With respect to a comparison of the clinical and experimental animals studies on the inactivation of estrone the following points must be kept in mind: [*]I, Histological liver damage produced in rats does not respond to crystalline B vitamins, but may, depending on conditions, respond to yeast or methionine. If Biskind's patients fall into this group the beneficial effect they observed with B vitamins is at variance with the literature. II, The acute deficiency of the vitamin B complex in rats (cf. above) and in dogs (Drill, Shaffer and Leathern, 1943) produces a marked decrease in food intake and weight. As the patients were stated to be generally overweight (Biskind, 1943) they do not fall into this group of extreme and acute deficiency. III, A further factor that should be noted is that in the above rat experiments with pellets the estrogen is not being supplied from a normal source. Animals with pellets in our studies failed to inactivate estrogen after an average loss of 20 to 30 grams in weight. However, if the estrous cycles of thiamine deficient and inanition control rats (without pellets) are studied, estrous cycles cease with an average loss of 12 to 18 grams in weight (Drill and Burrill, 1944). Thus under conditions of acute vitamin B complex deficiency one might infer that as food intake and weight decrease the production of estrogen is interfered with before the liver fails to inactivate it. (This inference is made only for acute vitamin B complex deficiency, and not for low casein diets and needs experimental study.) IV, Under particular conditions a chronic deficiency of B vitamins will produce liver damage, as seen in pellagrins, that does not respond to synthetic B vitamins or methionine, whereas liver extract and dried stomach produces definite improvement (Gillman and Gillman, 1945a; Gillman and Gillman, 1945b; Gillman and Gillman and Brenner, 1945). In a similar liver damage in dogs, there is again a marked decrease in food intake and weight (Drill and Loomis, 1946). These results differ from those reported on patients by Biskind, both on a change in weight basis, and a lack of effect of crystalline B vitamins on the liver damage in the pellagrins."

@haidut, I suggested it already but I'm suggesting it again: ironless aqueous liver extract. I don't know the difficulties of producing such supplement, but it would be closer to what's natural, and it can be advantageous more or less for the reasons that make your vit E extract superior. Not as a substitute for your Energin, but an addition (previous post). I'm not sending you a PM because there has to be at least one "+1" to certify that I'm not crazy with this suggestion.

Thanks for the link.
I will see what can be done about the iron-free liver extract. Given that liver usually has a lot of iron and copper, it could be tough removing just the iron and also may create an imbalance with all that copper left.

 

[Amazoniac]

Thanks for the link.
I will see what can be done about the iron-free liver extract. Given that liver usually has a lot of iron and copper, it could be tough removing just the iron and also may create an imbalance with all that copper left.

No problem with that, remove all minerals since it's more about providing a vitamin foundation so that the isolated ones work best. It would probably help to stabilize it as well and benefit those that don't need any more copper, etc. However one tricky part is knowing how much processing is too much (even for iron removal).
Supplement aside, I hope that you're doing great!

 

[Mossy]

I think as long as B2 dose stays at 10mg or below you should be OK even with light exposure.

Really appreciate the info -- thank you!

 

[Wagner83]

No problem with that, remove all minerals since it's more about providing a vitamin foundation so that the isolated ones work best. It would probably help to stabilize it as well and benefit those that don't need any more copper, etc. However one tricky part is knowing how much processing is too much (even for iron removal).
Supplement aside, I hope that you're doing great!

Would it be better than supplements of b vitamins and fat soluble vitamins? Sounds like it would be (a lot) more expensive .