Muscle twitches, restless legs and insomnia?

[revenant]

For the past three weeks, I've suffered from muscle twitches (especially in the eyes) throughout the day and night, and restless legs and insomnia at night.

I eat quite Peat-y these days, with 1 liter of OJ and 1-2 liters of skim milk daily. I've tried eating liver, vitamin A, vitamin D, zinc and a vitamin B complex but they didn't help. I've also tried the usual stuff like aspirin, niacinamide and vitamin K2, although not in large doses. I haven't noticed an effect. Eating a ton of calories for a few days didn't help either. Caffeine seems to make it slightly worse.

My first thought was that it's a magnesium deficiency, so I've tried various forms (oxalate, citrate and carbonate). Only the carbonate seems to maybe have some kind of an effect (other than laxative), but it's not very long lasting.

Should I try a product like Magnoil, or am I looking in the wrong place (deficiencies)? Is it related to serotonin maybe?

 

[Peatness]

Sounds like alkalosis.

Also twitching can be caused by low calcium or phosphorus excess.

B1 may be low.

If coffee makes it worse, it could be dehydration?

I have this issue too

 

[JKX]

Restless legs is serotonin. Try a little cypro. Anything that improves gut health such as cascara should help.

 

[revenant]

Sounds like alkalosis.

Also twitching can be caused by low calcium or phosphorus excess.

B1 may be low.

If coffee makes it worse, it could be dehydration?

I have this issue too

The alkalosis idea is interesting... I sometimes take a tablespoon of baking soda because it seems to help with an acidic taste in my mouth and also reflux symptoms. It also seems to improve the twitching a little bit, but reading this makes me think whether it might be a bad idea:

Baking soda induced severe metabolic alkalosis in a haemodialysis patient

Metabolic alkalosis is a rare occurence in hemodialysis population compared to metabolic acidosis unless some precipitating factors such as nasogastric suction, vomiting and alkali ingestion or infusion are present. When metabolic alkalosis develops, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Here, we present a 54-year-old female hemodialysis patient who developed a severe metabolic alkalosis due to baking soda ingestion to relieve dyspepsia. She had sleep apnea, volume overload and uncontrolled hypertension due to metabolic alkalosis."

How much baking soda is too much?

 

[revenant]

There's also this:

Baking Soda Can Settle the Stomach but Upset the Heart: Case Files of the Medical Toxicology Fellowship at the University of California, San Francisco

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"What Are the Respiratory, Cardiac, and Neurological Effects of Excessive Use of Baking Soda?​

Neurological effects including paresthesias, muscle twitching, tetany, and myoclonus have been reported and are probably due to hypocalcemia"

I actually take the baking soda mixed with orange juice, so perhaps the benefit is from the CO2. Indeed buteyko breathing seems to help as well.

 

[mostlylurking]

For the past three weeks, I've suffered from muscle twitches (especially in the eyes) throughout the day and night, and restless legs and insomnia at night.

I eat quite Peat-y these days, with 1 liter of OJ and 1-2 liters of skim milk daily. I've tried eating liver, vitamin A, vitamin D, zinc and a vitamin B complex but they didn't help. I've also tried the usual stuff like aspirin, niacinamide and vitamin K2, although not in large doses. I haven't noticed an effect. Eating a ton of calories for a few days didn't help either. Caffeine seems to make it slightly worse.

My first thought was that it's a magnesium deficiency, so I've tried various forms (oxalate, citrate and carbonate). Only the carbonate seems to maybe have some kind of an effect (other than laxative), but it's not very long lasting.

Should I try a product like Magnoil, or am I looking in the wrong place (deficiencies)? Is it related to serotonin maybe?

The twitches around / in the eyes points to a thiamine deficiency, so do the leg cramps. I think this youtube channel's videos on thiamine are very helpful: EONutrition Thiamine should always be taken with magnesium and it helps you tolerate more magnesium. Don't use the citrate form of magnesium.

Apparently, most of the lab tests for thiamine don't really work very well. It was suggested to simply take some thiamine with some magnesium and look for changes in how you feel. When I did that, my temperature went up from 98 to 99 degrees in about 45 minutes and all my pain disappeared.

I'm in the process of recovering from thiamine deficiency. I've increased my intake of both thiamine and magnesium a lot. I'm almost back to normal. This website has some very helpful articles about thiamine: You searched for thiamine - Hormones Matter

I contacted Ray Peat about my symptoms and suspicion that I was thiamine deficient. He responded that I need to focus on my gut health. I wasn't able to absorb thiamine because my gut was messed up from antibiotics. I've learned another wrinkle to the puzzle is that you need thiamine and magnesium to heal the gut. So I've been taking 275 mg of thiamine HCL 4 times a day. I could tell it was working after taking the first dose. I take 1/2 teaspoon magnesium glycinate with the thiamine, in a glass of orange juice (for the potassium).

I tried a 50 mg capsule of the TTFD thiamine last night. I didn't sleep well and woke up with a head ache. I'm going to stick with the thiamine hcl for now as I have no negative side effects with it. I bought the TTFD thiamine because I was having cerebral symptoms. It took a couple of weeks of carrot salad and mushrooms and thiamine HCL and magnesium for my head to clear. So now I don't really feel the need for the TTFD after all.

There's a video about treating Fibromyalgia with thiamine available on the youtube channel mentioned above. Here: This video was extremely helpful to me because I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome over 30 years ago. This may be why I am finding such a large dose of thiamine so helpful.

I am currently reading this book: . Excellent book. Read the reviews at Amazon.
Amazon product ASIN 0128103876

 

[Peatness]

The alkalosis idea is interesting... I sometimes take a tablespoon of baking soda because it seems to help with an acidic taste in my mouth and also reflux symptoms. It also seems to improve the twitching a little bit, but reading this makes me think whether it might be a bad idea:

Baking soda induced severe metabolic alkalosis in a haemodialysis patient

Metabolic alkalosis is a rare occurence in hemodialysis population compared to metabolic acidosis unless some precipitating factors such as nasogastric suction, vomiting and alkali ingestion or infusion are present. When metabolic alkalosis develops, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Here, we present a 54-year-old female hemodialysis patient who developed a severe metabolic alkalosis due to baking soda ingestion to relieve dyspepsia. She had sleep apnea, volume overload and uncontrolled hypertension due to metabolic alkalosis."

How much baking soda is too much?

Perhaps check urine ph with strips.

A tablespoon of backing soda is a lot. Orange juice is alkalizing.

lysine might help

low stomach acid can cause acid reflux, b1, b3 may help.

 

[revenant]

The twitches around / in the eyes points to a thiamine deficiency, so do the leg cramps. I think this youtube channel's videos on thiamine are very helpful: EONutrition Thiamine should always be taken with magnesium and it helps you tolerate more magnesium. Don't use the citrate form of magnesium.

Apparently, most of the lab tests for thiamine don't really work very well. It was suggested to simply take some thiamine with some magnesium and look for changes in how you feel. When I did that, my temperature went up from 98 to 99 degrees in about 45 minutes and all my pain disappeared.

I'm in the process of recovering from thiamine deficiency. I've increased my intake of both thiamine and magnesium a lot. I'm almost back to normal. This website has some very helpful articles about thiamine: You searched for thiamine - Hormones Matter

I contacted Ray Peat about my symptoms and suspicion that I was thiamine deficient. He responded that I need to focus on my gut health. I wasn't able to absorb thiamine because my gut was messed up from antibiotics. I've learned another wrinkle to the puzzle is that you need thiamine and magnesium to heal the gut. So I've been taking 275 mg of thiamine HCL 4 times a day. I could tell it was working after taking the first dose. I take 1/2 teaspoon magnesium glycinate with the thiamine, in a glass of orange juice (for the potassium).

Thanks! The thiamine angle is interesting, been reading up on it and just came across this:

"Although thiamin is abundant in certain foods, such as whole grains and legumes, diets that primarily consist of simple sugars, fats, or excessive alcohol are low in the vitamin. Furthermore, substantial losses of thiamin occur during cooking or other heat processing, and polyphenolic compounds in coffee and tea can inactivate thiamin. Similarly, raw fish and shellfish (and some human gut flora) contain thiaminases that also destroy thiamin."

"There is speculation that the primary etiology for thiamin deficiency in people with obesity is a diet high in simple sugars and low in whole grains, legumes, and other whole foods that naturally contain thiamin. Not only do simple sugars lack thiamin, but the metabolism of foods high in sugar requires relatively high amounts of thiamin and may therefore accelerate its depletion."

Thiamin Deficiency in People with Obesity (nih.gov)

Milk and dairy products is also mentioned a factor in decreased intake and/or absorption. All in all the diet that, according to this study, potentially leads to thiamine deficiency sounds a whole lot like a Ray Peat diet, at least the diet I'm eating.

I'm now on day 3 of taking 400 mg magnesium bicarbonate and ~250 mg of thiamine. The restless legs and insomnia have improved, and muscle twitches reduced in general, but the twitch in the eye still comes and goes during the day.

The package I have says a 1 mL spoon of thiamine powder is about 270 mg, is this correct?

 

[Peatness]

Thanks! The thiamine angle is interesting, been reading up on it and just came across this:

"Although thiamin is abundant in certain foods, such as whole grains and legumes, diets that primarily consist of simple sugars, fats, or excessive alcohol are low in the vitamin. Furthermore, substantial losses of thiamin occur during cooking or other heat processing, and polyphenolic compounds in coffee and tea can inactivate thiamin. Similarly, raw fish and shellfish (and some human gut flora) contain thiaminases that also destroy thiamin."

"There is speculation that the primary etiology for thiamin deficiency in people with obesity is a diet high in simple sugars and low in whole grains, legumes, and other whole foods that naturally contain thiamin. Not only do simple sugars lack thiamin, but the metabolism of foods high in sugar requires relatively high amounts of thiamin and may therefore accelerate its depletion."

Thiamin Deficiency in People with Obesity (nih.gov)

Milk and dairy products is also mentioned a factor in decreased intake and/or absorption. All in all the diet that, according to this study, potentially leads to thiamine deficiency sounds a whole lot like a Ray Peat diet, at least the diet I'm eating.

I'm now on day 3 of taking 400 mg magnesium bicarbonate and ~250 mg of thiamine. The restless legs and insomnia have improved, and muscle twitches reduced in general, but the twitch in the eye still comes and goes during the day.

The package I have says a 1 mL spoon of thiamine powder is about 270 mg, is this correct?

Don't rule out alkolosis, ph strips are useful if taking bicarbonate, furthermore


"Use of tobacco products, or carbonate and citrate food additives can impair thiamine absorption."

Thiamine | Encyclopedia.com

Thiamine Description Thiamine, also known as vitamin B1, was the first of the water-soluble B-vitamin family to be discovered. It is an essential component of an enzyme, thiamine pyrophosphate, that is involved in metabolizing carbohydrates.

www.encyclopedia.com

 

[mostlylurking]

Thanks! The thiamine angle is interesting, been reading up on it and just came across this:

"Although thiamin is abundant in certain foods, such as whole grains and legumes, diets that primarily consist of simple sugars, fats, or excessive alcohol are low in the vitamin. Furthermore, substantial losses of thiamin occur during cooking or other heat processing, and polyphenolic compounds in coffee and tea can inactivate thiamin. Similarly, raw fish and shellfish (and some human gut flora) contain thiaminases that also destroy thiamin."

"There is speculation that the primary etiology for thiamin deficiency in people with obesity is a diet high in simple sugars and low in whole grains, legumes, and other whole foods that naturally contain thiamin. Not only do simple sugars lack thiamine, but the metabolism of foods high in sugar requires relatively high amounts of thiamine and may therefore accelerate its depletion."

Thiamin Deficiency in People with Obesity (nih.gov)

Milk and dairy products is also mentioned a factor in decreased intake and/or absorption. All in all the diet that, according to this study, potentially leads to thiamine deficiency sounds a whole lot like a Ray Peat diet, at least the diet I'm eating.

I'm now on day 3 of taking 400 mg magnesium bicarbonate and ~250 mg of thiamine. The restless legs and insomnia have improved, and muscle twitches reduced in general, but the twitch in the eye still comes and goes during the day.

The package I have says a 1 mL spoon of thiamine powder is about 270 mg, is this correct?

My package says 1/8 teaspoon of thiamine powder is 275 mg, but I weighed it with my gram scale and it weighs 250 mg. I'm now doing that much 4 times a day, each time with 1/4 teaspoon of magnesium glycinate, which weighs 1gram. This equals 1000mg of thiamine and 4000mg of magnesium glycinate each day. Before I increased my thiamine intake I could only tolerate about 800 mg of magnesium glycinate a day. I'm not having any problems taking 4 times that dosage now, paired with the thiamine, but it does seem a little extreme, I don't know.

The bit about blaming the Peaty diet is not the whole story. I faithfully followed a Peaty diet (lots of milk and OJ, liver, shellfish, watermelon, raw carrot salad, mushrooms, lots of gelatin) for 6 years before having these thiamine issues. My diet has been pretty high sugar. I'm strongly gluten sensitive so not eating nuts, seeds, and grains really helped me. I am sensitive to serotonin so I don't eat much meat (avoiding tryptophan). I have taken about 90mg of thiamine daily throughout the 6 years. Ray Peat has said (somewhere) that it is helpful to take a thiamine supplement if if adding sugar to the diet. This was working fine for me. I felt good and even slowly lost about 20 pounds.

I fell apart after being prescribed Bactrim, last summer. The trimethoprim in it damages the ability to use thiamine. See this: Interaction of 2,4-Diaminopyrimidine–Containing Drugs Including Fedratinib and Trimethoprim with Thiamine Transporters I hope the mega dosing of thiamine I'm doing will turn this around. I am feeling much better and am exercising a little now.

Some things that block thiamine include antibiotics, tea (tannins), and coffee (caffeine). Sugar uses it up (so a supplement will help). It is used in the burning of glucose to make ATP. A thiamine deficiency blocks the process and results in lactic acid instead of carbon dioxide. I have no interest in "becoming a fat burner" because that made me really sick.

I've also read recently that thiamine will chelate lead. I know that I carry a load of lead from being tested several years ago. I now wonder if the lead poisoning has put a drain on my thiamine supply as well.

 

[revenant]

Don't rule out alkolosis, ph strips are useful if taking bicarbonate, furthermore

Thanks. I don't have ph strips at hand, but have stopped taking bicarbonate for the moment.

 

[Perry Staltic]

This has some interesting info on causes and effects of thiamine deficiency (have to scroll down a bit).

NOT COVID

 

[revenant]

For others who might be having the same issues, taking 400mg magnesium carbonate and 250-500mg thiamine daily has greatly improved the situation. I feel like thiamine has also improved energy levels in general. Thanks for all the suggestions!

 

[deliciousfruit]

+1 for the cyproheptadine, has helped me with similar issues

 

[Mauritio]

I would take a dopamin agonist , like lisuride or caffeine . You could try 2 glasses of tonic water many people online claimed it cured their restless legs ! Because it contains quinine ,which is a dopamin agonist/ serotonin antagonist.

I would not take cypro , not because its anti serotonin, but because it's also anti dopamin . We had a case on the forum, I think it was @Elize , that got restless legs because of taking cypro IIRC .

 

[revenant]

Caffeine did not help me personally, nor did tonic water.

 

[deliciousfruit]

I would take a dopamin agonist , like lisuride or caffeine . You could try 2 glasses of tonic water many people online claimed it cured their restless legs ! Because it contains quinine ,which is a dopamin agonist/ serotonin antagonist.

I would not take cypro , not because its anti serotonin, but because it's also anti dopamin . We had a case on the forum, I think it was @Elize , that got restless legs because of taking cypro IIRC .

A low dose of cyproheptadine (0.5-1mg) shouldn't be anti-dopaminergic

 

[Mauritio]

Caffeine did not help me personally, nor did tonic water.

Okay ever tried a "real" dopamin agonist of the ergot family ?

 

[gaze]

I contacted Ray Peat about my symptoms and suspicion that I was thiamine deficient. He responded that I need to focus on my gut health. I wasn't able to absorb thiamine because my gut was messed up from antibiotics. I've learned another wrinkle to the puzzle is that you need thiamine and magnesium to heal the gut. So I've been taking 275 mg of thiamine HCL 4 times a day. I could tell it was working after taking the first dose. I take 1/2 teaspoon magnesium glycinate with the thiamine, in a glass of orange juice (for the potassium).

Would you mind sharing the email response he sent you?

 

[mostlylurking]

Would you mind sharing the email response he sent you?

Ray Peat's response to my first email:

"The larger dose of thyroid might help, but dividing the present dose could make it a little more effective, about a third of the three times a day (morning, midday, and bedtime). Has your vitamin D level been checked? Vitamin D and milk calcium work with thyroid and thiamine to keep energy up, reduce inflammation. The bladder infection might have resulted from slowing metabolism, and the Bactrim could have made that worse, slowing your digestion, increasing absorbed irritants and toxins, interfering with thyroid effectiveness. More fiber in your diet, such as cooked mushrooms, could stimulate digestion and reduce toxins. Oysters have all the trace minerals."

Ray Peat's response to my second email regarding my low D status:

"Only about 10% of the D is absorbed through the skin; taking that amount orally could make a big difference, working with thyroid, fiber, milk and aspirin to raise temperature and reduce inflammation."