Ulcers, H. Pylori, Malnutrition, & Plain Old Stress

[GelatinGoblin]

Thanks brother, just in case

 

[Creative Nature]

It's become very clear that my gastritis or upper GI infection, or whatever it may be, responds strongly to my metabolic rate. Symptoms sometimes disappear during the late morning and early afternoon, when my metabolism is highest. Moreover, during experiments with regular (caffeinated) coffee and, to a lesser extent, with low doses of a thyroid supplement, the gastritis symptoms became significantly milder, but returned when I had to end the experiments. So I have to work on improving my tolerance for coffee and thyroid.

 

[gaze]

@Creative Nature what does your hunger feel like? when i have some sort of bowel inflamation flare up, i sometimes notice i'm not truly hungry (as in naturally gravitating towards food), but i get those gastritis and ulcer type symptoms where it's like a strange hunger pain in the stomach that makes me want to eat something just to subdue it. it's weird to describe, and i can't tell if i've been under eating and i'm just hungry or if its gastritis causing the hunger pain.

 

[Creative Nature]

@Creative Nature what does your hunger feel like? when i have some sort of bowel inflamation flare up, i sometimes notice i'm not truly hungry (as in naturally gravitating towards food), but i get those gastritis and ulcer type symptoms where it's like a strange hunger pain in the stomach that makes me want to eat something just to subdue it. it's weird to describe, and i can't tell if i've been under eating and i'm just hungry or if its gastritis causing the hunger pain.

Sorry to hear you are also dealing with gastritis (or similar condition).

I'm not hungry often, but when I am, my hunger feels about the same as it did when I was semi-healthy a few years ago. Just a sensation that the stomach is empty and ready, not too painful. (Sometimes warm, sugared goat milk kills my stress hormones and I feel more hungry after drinking it -- which for me is great.) When I haven't eaten for a while, the gastritis symptoms (stress reaction + stomach pain/discomfort) fade. Eating frequently doesn't help...

...But like you, I definitely notice that lower GI problems exacerbate the gastritis. For me, the connection might be something like:

bowel leaks endotoxin --> metabolism shuts down --> gastritis runs wild.

How do you think bowel inflammation is triggering gastritis symptoms for you?

 

[gaze]

Sorry to hear you are also dealing with gastritis (or similar condition).

I'm not hungry often, but when I am, my hunger feels about the same as it did when I was semi-healthy a few years ago. Just a sensation that the stomach is empty and ready, not too painful. (Sometimes warm, sugared goat milk kills my stress hormones and I feel more hungry after drinking it -- which for me is great.) When I haven't eaten for a while, the gastritis symptoms (stress reaction + stomach pain/discomfort) fade. Eating frequently doesn't help...

...But like you, I definitely notice that lower GI problems exacerbate the gastritis. For me, the connection might be something like:

bowel leaks endotoxin --> metabolism shuts down --> gastritis runs wild.

How do you think bowel inflammation is triggering gastritis symptoms for you?

i'm not dealing with it currently, it was a couple months ago that it was worse.

for me it felt like, i had some sort of discomfort in my stomach that just needed food in order to subdue. it wasn't even pain really but i think it's what they refer to as "hunger pain", although i could eat a large meal sometimes and it would still be there. online when i read about gastritis and ulcers a lot of people mention this symptom so i was just curious if you experienced it, and this website sort of describes it:

Causes Of Hunger Pain/Pangs | Gastrointestinal Disorders medical answers | Body & Health Conditions center | SteadyHealth.com

What exactly is hunger pain? Hunger pains or pangs are caused by the irritation of the stomach lining.

www.steadyhealth.com

usually it was also occampanied by some sort of reflux at night, and i had pretty severe anxiety followed by bowel movements as mentioned in your other thread. i think the bowel inflamation causes b vitamin loss, serotonin, and estrogen etc, which make the panic rush worse. if i go too hard on refined foods, i find i can slip into a similar condition sometimes. small portions of beef with fruit and cheese help get some b6 and b3 which helped. I think for me the biggest changes That helped was finding unfortified milk that i tolerated (i think the vitamin A supplement is a big problem), along with finding a very salty cheese that i also tolerated, which for me was ricotta. calcium, sodium, and vitamin D all kind of helped me feel normal, although it still lingers occasionally. i notice OJ to be very helpful if I listen to my appetite and drink it when i'm craving sugar, but if i try to drink too much for calories past my appetite it can lead to some reflux. eggs are also kind of questionable, i find i react kind of poorly and get some sulfur type gas from them. honey first thing in the morning also helped me, and i know you've had expierence with that as well

 

[Creative Nature]

i'm not dealing with it currently, it was a couple months ago that it was worse.

for me it felt like, i had some sort of discomfort in my stomach that just needed food in order to subdue. it wasn't even pain really but i think it's what they refer to as "hunger pain", although i could eat a large meal sometimes and it would still be there. online when i read about gastritis and ulcers a lot of people mention this symptom so i was just curious if you experienced it, and this website sort of describes it:

Causes Of Hunger Pain/Pangs | Gastrointestinal Disorders medical answers | Body & Health Conditions center | SteadyHealth.com

What exactly is hunger pain? Hunger pains or pangs are caused by the irritation of the stomach lining.

www.steadyhealth.com

No, my gastritis symptoms arise when I eat and then fade. They don't get worse with hunger.

usually it was also occampanied by some sort of reflux at night, and i had pretty severe anxiety followed by bowel movements as mentioned in your other thread. i think the bowel inflamation causes b vitamin loss, serotonin, and estrogen etc, which make the panic rush worse. if i go too hard on refined foods, i find i can slip into a similar condition sometimes. small portions of beef with fruit and cheese help get some b6 and b3 which helped. I think for me the biggest changes That helped was finding unfortified milk that i tolerated (i think the vitamin A supplement is a big problem), along with finding a very salty cheese that i also tolerated, which for me was ricotta. calcium, sodium, and vitamin D all kind of helped me feel normal, although it still lingers occasionally. i notice OJ to be very helpful if I listen to my appetite and drink it when i'm craving sugar, but if i try to drink too much for calories past my appetite it can lead to some reflux. eggs are also kind of questionable, i find i react kind of poorly and get some sulfur type gas from them. honey first thing in the morning also helped me, and i know you've had expierence with that as well

Thank you for sharing your experience. Very interesting about bowel inflammation and loss of B vitamins.

I find gastritis makes it much harder to get adequate amounts of micronutrients. I can't tolerate fruit juice right now, and the fiber from whole fruit (often not fully ripe) irritates my bowel. (I eat whole fruit anyway, but I can't tolerate enough of it to replace the vitamins and minerals I got from orange, grape, and apple juice.) Gastritis makes it harder to eat as much liver and other cuts of beef as I need for micronutrients. Gastritis also increases my need for gelatin, which displaces other protein sources with more micronutrients. At least I still tolerate shellfish, cheese, and goat milk pretty well. If I can find nutritious carb sources I tolerate well, I'll be in much better shape...

 

[Creative Nature]

First, the good news...

Eating even moderate amounts of protein triggers my gastritis and other symptoms. For many months, I struggled to eat even 40-50 g/day of protein and often averaged much less. In the last few months, I have succeeded in slowly increasing my protein intake. I've eaten over 70 g/day for several weeks, and over 80 g/day for the last 10-12 days. I recently increased gelatin to 50 g/day. I'm eating about 4-5 oz of beef liver per week and 1-2 boxes of Crown Prince oysters. I have more work to do -- I probably need to get over 100 g/day of protein consistently -- but the recent protein increase is a HUGE victory.

And now the not so good news...

When I was able to drink fruit juice, coffee, and coconut water and eat chocolate, getting enough magnesium was easy, but my gastritis is now bad enough that I can't tolerate any of these foods. Fiber in whole fruit irritates my bowel, and oral magnesium supplements irritate my stomach. (Can't eat green vegetables, either.) I recently estimated that I'm getting under 300 mg/day of magnesium from diet. Main sources of dietary magnesium right now are Gerolsteiner water, goat milk, and dates. I take daily epsom salt baths and use what appear to be good-sized doses of topical magnesium oil, but it doesn't seem like I'm absorbing much magnesium from either of these sources.

I don't tolerate thyroid supplements without adequate magnesium, and I'm very hypothyroid, so the low magnesium intake is a big problem for me.

If anyone has any ideas for how to increase magnesium when gastritis prevents you from using the usual Peaty sources, please let me know.

 

[gaze]

I have great success personally with a pound of kale or spinach or chard or one of those greens, boiled in some water for about 10 minutes, and then strained to get the liquid while throwing out the greens. Also put a pinch of baking soda in the water to lower the oxalates. its a good mineral supplement, however the effects are short lasting when thyroids low. I forget if you've mentioned this, but what has been your experience with starchy foods, like rice, oats, potatoes, etc? do they make the gastritis much worse?

 

[Creative Nature]

I have great success personally with a pound of kale or spinach or chard or one of those greens, boiled in some water for about 10 minutes, and then strained to get the liquid while throwing out the greens. Also put a pinch of baking soda in the water to lower the oxalates. its a good mineral supplement, however the effects are short lasting when thyroids low. I forget if you've mentioned this, but what has been your experience with starchy foods, like rice, oats, potatoes, etc? do they make the gastritis much worse?

Thanks for sharing your experience, @gaze. Do you have a rough, ballpark idea of what % of the minerals you extract from the greens? I'm trying to get a sense of how often I'd have to make the vegetable broth to get enough magnesium from it.

I haven't eaten starch in a while. I don't think it would trigger the gastritis, but it would likely contribute to my endotoxin problems, and based on past experience, more than whole fruit does.

It would be good to get more magnesium from my carb sources. I get too much of my carbs from the honey I add to my herbal tea (pau d'arco or chamomile). The tea has anti-inflammatory properties, but not much magnesium.

 

[gaze]

Thanks for sharing your experience, @gaze. Do you have a rough, ballpark idea of what % of the minerals you extract from the greens? I'm trying to get a sense of how often I'd have to make the vegetable broth to get enough magnesium from it.

I haven't eaten starch in a while. I don't think it would trigger the gastritis, but it would likely contribute to my endotoxin problems, and based on past experience, more than whole fruit does.

It would be good to get more magnesium from my carb sources. I get too much of my carbs from the honey I add to my herbal tea (pau d'arco or chamomile). The tea has anti-inflammatory properties, but not much magnesium.

Im not too sure. what are your main magnesium deficient symptoms? is it like twitching eyes or muscles? For a long time I thought I had magnesium problems, but usally enough salt, calcium, and calories tends to fix it without supplementing or drinking the magnesium broth too too often. Do you have a rough estimate of how many Grams carbs your getting?

 

[Creative Nature]

Im not too sure. what are your main magnesium deficient symptoms? is it like twitching eyes or muscles?

I do get twitching eyes and I have a tremor, but the most obvious symptom to me is that I get stress reactions to even very small amounts of T3 that (temporarily) go away if I apply a lot of transdermal magnesium oil. I suspect I developed a chronic Mg deficiency when I megadosed B1.

For a long time I thought I had magnesium problems, but usally enough salt, calcium, and calories tends to fix it without supplementing or drinking the magnesium broth too too often. Do you have a rough estimate of how many Grams carbs your getting?

Over 300 g/day. Maybe even closer to 400 g/day.

 

[GelatinGoblin]

I have great success personally with a pound of kale or spinach or chard or one of those greens, boiled in some water for about 10 minutes, and then strained to get the liquid while throwing out the greens. Also put a pinch of baking soda in the water to lower the oxalates. its a good mineral supplement, however the effects are short lasting when thyroids low. I forget if you've mentioned this, but what has been your experience with starchy foods, like rice, oats, potatoes, etc? do they make the gastritis much worse?

Exactly this, wanted to say this as well. 20 minutes sounds better though, and throughout the week in soup I could maybe use the cooked greens or the water while hitting up a gelatin beef broth ( in a separate pot ofc).
Also wash them well before

 

[Creative Nature]

@GelatinGoblin, @gaze: Thanks, gents.

I'm increasing dietary magnesium a bit with more Gerolsteiner, dates, shellfish, and cheese. I've also started experimenting with Georgi's Magnoil, which I hope will absorb better than topical magnesium chloride and the magnesium sulfate in epsom salt baths (though I'm continuing the baths). I will report the results.

 

[Creative Nature]

Stress reactions to eating protein have continued to be relatively mild, so for roughly last two weeks I've been over 100 g of protein per day, more than double what I used to get on relatively good days. Huge progress. Also up to 1 oz/day of beef liver, and still eating 50 g/day of protein from beef gelatin.

My dietary magnesium intake is improving, though not ideal, and between diet and epsom salt baths, I'm probably now getting at least the RDA. I quickly developed stress reactions to Magnoil, so can't use it for now.

Unfortunately, despite the above progress, gastritis is worst it's been in a while as my metabolic rate drops without thyroid (which I still don't tolerate) and coffee.

Don't know what to do at this point. To boost metabolism in relatively gentle ways, I'm thinking about trying low doses of topical methylene blue and increasing my doses of topical B vitamins. I could definitely use more sleep. And I haven't always managed stress well, which likely contributed to developing gastritis and contributes now to my difficulty in healing it.

As always, I'll appreciate any suggestions or discussion of your experiences.

 

[GelatinGoblin]

Stress reactions to eating protein have continued to be relatively mild, so for roughly last two weeks I've been over 100 g of protein per day, more than double what I used to get on relatively good days. Huge progress. Also up to 1 oz/day of beef liver, and still eating 50 g/day of protein from beef gelatin.

My dietary magnesium intake is improving, though not ideal, and between diet and epsom salt baths, I'm probably now getting at least the RDA. I quickly developed stress reactions to Magnoil, so can't use it for now.

Unfortunately, despite the above progress, gastritis is worst it's been in a while as my metabolic rate drops without thyroid (which I still don't tolerate) and coffee.

Don't know what to do at this point. To boost metabolism in relatively gentle ways, I'm thinking about trying low doses of topical methylene blue and increasing my doses of topical B vitamins. I could definitely use more sleep. And I haven't always managed stress well, which likely contributed to developing gastritis and contributes now to my difficulty in healing it.

As always, I'll appreciate any suggestions or discussion of your experiences.

Tidbit but I think 1oz per day of Beef Liver is too much. Also are you getting enough sun with all that Vitamin A?

 

[Creative Nature]

Tidbit but I think 1oz per day of Beef Liver is too much. Also are you getting enough sun with all that Vitamin A?

I appreciate your feedback, @GelatinGoblin. Do you think that amount of beef liver would cause problems as a temporary measure after a long period of malnutrition? I've only been eating 1 oz/day for a few weeks, and it's not too far off the 6 oz per week that Ray Peat suggested in response to an email:

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

raypeatforum.com

I don't know the context of the email, though, and RP has also said hypothyroid people shouldn't overdo vitamin A..

I sun myself on my balcony, but not long enough. Hoping that as my condition improves I'll be able to do significant walks outside, but I'm not there yet.

 

[Creative Nature]

Although my diet and mobility have improved a lot, gastritis is still a big problem for me. Still can't drink fruit juice or coffee, both of which would be enormously helpful. I could use the minerals and fiber-free sugar from fruit juice, and when my stomach used to tolerate coffee, it made a big difference in my health.

I've been eating good amounts of protein (currently 110-120 g/day) and lots of gelatin (currently 5 tbsps/day of Great Lakes gelatin, or about 55 g of protein from gelatin) for at least a few months, so I'm hoping my long-standing protein deficiency is fading by now. It's frustrating that the huge improvements in protein intake have done so little for my GI.

B1 reduces the severity of my gastritis, but increasing B1 sometimes seems to cause stress reactions in the evening. I'm stuck at around 250 mg/day of transdermal thiamine HCl, and who knows how much I'm really absorbing

Thyroid definitely helps my gastritis, too, but I've barely been able to tolerate any.

Edit to add: Lately, I've been wondering if I'm not producing enough stomach acid and other digestive secretions, which seems like it could explain both my GI problems, gastritis and endotoxin.

Current diet is mostly beef gelatin, cheese, shellfish, fruit (primarily dates, mangoes, melons), herbal tea (chamomile or pau d'arco) with plenty of honey, beef liver, eggs, maple syrup, butter, coconut oil, raw carrots, bamboo shoots, and Gerolsteiner mineral water. I occasionally try beef or very low-fat fish, but they seem to make my endotoxin symptoms worse.

I think I'm getting decent amounts of most nutrients now, though I'm a little low in potassium (around 85-95% of the RDA). Trying to increase fruit consumption.

Main meds & supplements: vitamins D and E, cascara sagrada, Energin B complex + extra B1, B3, and B6, low dose methylene blue, epsom salt baths, magnesium chloride oil, cyproheptadine, famotidine, clonidine. progesterone (will eventually add in a little DHEA), a few tiny specks of T3 during day and a little T4 at bedtime. All are transdermal except for the CS, cypro, famotidine, clonidine, and thyroid

Edit to add: I'd love to ditch the supplements and just rely on food for a while, but gastritis makes it hard to get all of my nutrition from food, and when I drop pro-metabolic supplements, my GI problems become far worse.

Lifestyle: After extremely limited mobility for a couple of years, I'm now able to do short, daily walks and some qi gong. Lack of light is a problem. I get some sun on my balcony and do 10-30 minutes/day of red light therapy, but I doubt they're enough. Morale is OK except for health concerns. It would probably help to spend more time on fun activities, but many of the things I love to do (e.g. spend time outdoors or with friends, exercise, eat tasty food) are hard to do right now because of either immobility or GI problems.

Any ideas, suggestions, personal experiences, etc. will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Creative Nature]

As bad as my situation sounds, I don't think I'm that far away from a breakthrough. If I can figure out a way to tolerate thyroid, coffee, or B1 without inducing or aggravating nutritional deficiencies, I'll bet my GI symptoms will improve a lot. All three have worked for me in the past.

 

[Lejeboca]

Apparently plant extracts, as used traditionally, are very effective in dealing with H. pylori (HP) per paper cited below.

In vitro susceptibility of Helicobacter pylori to botanical extracts used traditionally for the treatment of gastrointestinal disorders - PubMed

The gram-negative bacterium Helicobacter pylori (HP), identified in 1982, is now recognized as the primary etiological factor associated with the development of gastritis and peptic ulcer disease. In addition, HP infections are also associated with chronic gastritis, gastric carcinoma and...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"As part of an ongoing screening program, the study assessed the in vitro susceptibility of 15 HP strains
to botanical extracts, which have a history of traditional use in the treatment of GI disorders."

"The results of the in vitro screening of methanol extracts of 24 plant species against 15 strains of H. pylori are presented in Table 1. "

Note that the "most active methanol extracts included fennel, ginger, marjoram, nutmeg, passionflower, rosemary, turmeric and yarrow, having MICs < 50 µg/mL", which is better than that of controls (antibiotics amoxicillin and metronidazole).​

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