Gut issues, E. coli, h pylori, help?

[eugenics4dumies]

You may have heard me call in to the bioenergetic hotline episode 4 with these gut issues. I'll go ahead and explain again. Please, any insight would be helpful.
3 years ago my husband and I both got what we thought was food poisoning. Very sick for a week with fatigue, diarrhea, awful stomach pains. We both got better, but neither of us fully recovered from it.
We both had bad bowl movements ranging from clear bubbles and nothing else, to what we call "soft serve" for lack of better terms lol. Sorry TMI. Some burping and gas, some stomach gurgling. Other than that, no issues. This went on for a few years.
We are now at the point where we'd like to conceive. I realize I need to fix these gut issues before getting pregnant. So last year, before I really started getting into my own health research and peating, we hired a holistic health practitioner to "fix me".
She did some gut testing (this past October) which I'll link. She said the main issues were e. Coli and h pylori, and put me on a protocol including mastic gum, barberry, megaspore (which gave me herx reaction), s boulardi, l reuteri, and a biofilm buster. After 60 days of this I seemed to have improved.
I came off most supplements, and things were okay for a week or two, then bowel movements declined again. Also started drinking raw milk from a trusted friends farm around this time, not sure if that's related at all.
Shortly after I developed hemorrhoids with quite a bit of bleeding (bright red at the end of BM), which has just now gotten better. Today being day 3 of no blood at the end of stool. It was brought to my attention that the type of E. coli I had caused hemorrhoids. Not sure if that was the cause or if it was just from having awful bowel movements for 3 years. I went to an awfully clueless doctor, who confirmed I have hemorrhoids, but didn't think the size of my hemorrhoids would warrant the amount of bleeding I was having. She said she would refer me to a GI and I have not gotten a call back yet. My holistic practitioner (who I now realize is not as smart as I thought) wants me to get a colonoscopy, which is a big NO from me after researching the risks.
I've tried to find info on this strain of E. coli and how to treat it, but it seems in most cases it just resolves itself quickly and no treatment is necessary. Maybe it's the h pylori causing the issues. I'm exhausted with trying to figure it out.
Hard to believe it could be something like IBS when both me and my husband both had the same symptoms at the same time, though his has not caused hemorrhoids or burning stomach (he does still have diarrhea and gurgling and gas).
Now, my stomach is burning every day and I have tons of gurgling. I just want it all to be done with.
Any ideas/thoughts would be great.
Also for anyone who may suggest oregano oil, I tried that a year ago and got a week long anxiety attack with no symptom relief.
As for diet, the first half of this mess, we were doing fasting and low carb. Realized that was garbage and switched to Ray Peat inspired. I only eat Whole Foods, no junk ever. Currently eating oat bran, yogurt with honey and bee pollen, apple and orange juice, pasteurized cows milk and cheese, winter squashes, lots of beef and beef liver, cooked apples, rice, potatoes, carrots, and some very occasional peppers, plantain chips cooked in coconut oil. Have been cutting the starch recently though, without any luck.
Started taking methylene blue a few days ago, I also take tyromax. Was taking magnesium capsules but switching to Epsom foot baths so I don't have to digest the pills.
I'm open to taking first generation antibiotics like amoxicillin etc, but have never tried these and not sure if they're appropriate for the situation or not.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

You may have heard me call in to the bioenergetic hotline episode 4 with these gut issues. I'll go ahead and explain again. Please, any insight would be helpful.
3 years ago my husband and I both got what we thought was food poisoning. Very sick for a week with fatigue, diarrhea, awful stomach pains. We both got better, but neither of us fully recovered from it.
We both had bad bowl movements ranging from clear bubbles and nothing else, to what we call "soft serve" for lack of better terms lol. Sorry TMI. Some burping and gas, some stomach gurgling. Other than that, no issues. This went on for a few years.
We are now at the point where we'd like to conceive. I realize I need to fix these gut issues before getting pregnant. So last year, before I really started getting into my own health research and peating, we hired a holistic health practitioner to "fix me".
She did some gut testing (this past October) which I'll link. She said the main issues were e. Coli and h pylori, and put me on a protocol including mastic gum, barberry, megaspore (which gave me herx reaction), s boulardi, l reuteri, and a biofilm buster. After 60 days of this I seemed to have improved.
I came off most supplements, and things were okay for a week or two, then bowel movements declined again. Also started drinking raw milk from a trusted friends farm around this time, not sure if that's related at all.
Shortly after I developed hemorrhoids with quite a bit of bleeding (bright red at the end of BM), which has just now gotten better. Today being day 3 of no blood at the end of stool. It was brought to my attention that the type of E. coli I had caused hemorrhoids. Not sure if that was the cause or if it was just from having awful bowel movements for 3 years. I went to an awfully clueless doctor, who confirmed I have hemorrhoids, but didn't think the size of my hemorrhoids would warrant the amount of bleeding I was having. She said she would refer me to a GI and I have not gotten a call back yet. My holistic practitioner (who I now realize is not as smart as I thought) wants me to get a colonoscopy, which is a big NO from me after researching the risks.
I've tried to find info on this strain of E. coli and how to treat it, but it seems in most cases it just resolves itself quickly and no treatment is necessary. Maybe it's the h pylori causing the issues. I'm exhausted with trying to figure it out.
Hard to believe it could be something like IBS when both me and my husband both had the same symptoms at the same time, though his has not caused hemorrhoids or burning stomach (he does still have diarrhea and gurgling and gas).
Now, my stomach is burning every day and I have tons of gurgling. I just want it all to be done with.
Any ideas/thoughts would be great.
Also for anyone who may suggest oregano oil, I tried that a year ago and got a week long anxiety attack with no symptom relief.
As for diet, the first half of this mess, we were doing fasting and low carb. Realized that was garbage and switched to Ray Peat inspired. I only eat Whole Foods, no junk ever. Currently eating oat bran, yogurt with honey and bee pollen, apple and orange juice, pasteurized cows milk and cheese, winter squashes, lots of beef and beef liver, cooked apples, rice, potatoes, carrots, and some very occasional peppers, plantain chips cooked in coconut oil. Have been cutting the starch recently though, without any luck.
Started taking methylene blue a few days ago, I also take tyromax. Was taking magnesium capsules but switching to Epsom foot baths so I don't have to digest the pills.
I'm open to taking first generation antibiotics like amoxicillin etc, but have never tried these and not sure if they're appropriate for the situation or not.

I would suggest manuka honey. Treat is like antibiotics that say "take away from food". Take it at bedtime and let it work at the bacteria all night.

"They found that Manuka honey from New Zealand, at concentrations as low as 5% v/v, completely inhibit the growth of H. pylori, and that 2.5% v/v partially inhibits the growth of H. pylori."

Honey in the Management of Infections - Page 5

www.medscape.com

 

[Rasaari]

Try activated charcoal first. Take at least 30g with juice on an empty stomach in the morning, for few days. The issue with ehec is the toxin that it produces and charcoal should bind to it. Antibiotic therapy for ehec is a bit controversial according to some literature, but perhaps its time to try it if it hasn't alleviated yet.

Regular amoxicillin might or might not be effective, if the ehec produces beta lactamase. Then you would need amoxiclav. Doxycycline is usually effective for e coli as well tmp/smx.

For h. Pylori clarithromycin+amoxicillin+famotidine would be the most effective, if not amoxicillin then switch it to doxy or metronidazole.

You could hit both flys with one stone with amoxiclav+clarithromycin+famotidine.

But perhaps you should find a doctor that can treat these, although easier said than done.

 

[eugenics4dumies]

I would suggest manuka honey. Treat is like antibiotics that say "take away from food". Take it at bedtime and let it work at the bacteria all night.

"They found that Manuka honey from New Zealand, at concentrations as low as 5% v/v, completely inhibit the growth of H. pylori, and that 2.5% v/v partially inhibits the growth of H. pylori."

Honey in the Management of Infections - Page 5

www.medscape.com

What amount would you recommend? 1 Tbs?

 

[eugenics4dumies]

Try activated charcoal first. Take at least 30g with juice on an empty stomach in the morning, for few days. The issue with ehec is the toxin that it produces and charcoal should bind to it. Antibiotic therapy for ehec is a bit controversial according to some literature, but perhaps its time to try it if it hasn't alleviated yet.

Regular amoxicillin might or might not be effective, if the ehec produces beta lactamase. Then you would need amoxiclav. Doxycycline is usually effective for e coli as well tmp/smx.

For h. Pylori clarithromycin+amoxicillin+famotidine would be the most effective, if not amoxicillin then switch it to doxy or metronidazole.

You could hit both flys with one stone with amoxiclav+clarithromycin+famotidine.

But perhaps you should find a doctor that can treat these, although easier said than done.

Are these meds (amoxiclav+clarithromycin+famotidine) able to be obtained without a doctor? What amounts would you suggest?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

What amount would you recommend? 1 Tbs?

Yes a tablespoon at bedtime, and don't eat or drink anything after. The higher UMF number the better. The high numbered one is expensive, like $50 a jar, but it's cost indicates it's value.

 

[Rasaari]

Are these meds (amoxiclav+clarithromycin+famotidine) able to be obtained without a doctor? What amounts would you suggest?

Antibiotics in all first world countries are rx only. However in america you can buy veterinary abx withouth rx, for example meds for birds, fish, cows... Work just as well. You can also order from mexico or india but that is not legal, if caught, although rare.

Typical h pylori eradication therapy would be amoxiclav 1g+clarithromycin 500mg+famotidine 40mg all twice a day. 7-10days. In terms of ehec i would probably increase the amoxiclav to 3x/day just to be sure.

With your results you should be able to get a doctor to prescribe these if you can find one.

 

[eugenics4dumies]

Antibiotics in all first world countries are rx only. However in america you can buy veterinary abx withouth rx, for example meds for birds, fish, cows... Work just as well. You can also order from mexico or india but that is not legal, if caught, although rare.

Typical h pylori eradication therapy would be amoxiclav 1g+clarithromycin 500mg+famotidine 40mg all twice a day. 7-10days. In terms of ehec i would probably increase the amoxiclav to 3x/day just to be sure.

With your results you should be able to get a doctor to prescribe these if you can find one.

Awesome thank you so much. It really means a lot to me. I'll see what my new Gi doctor will do.

 

[eugenics4dumies]

Awesome thank you so much. It really means a lot to me. I'll see what my new Gi doctor will do.

Antibiotics in all first world countries are rx only. However in america you can buy veterinary abx withouth rx, for example meds for birds, fish, cows... Work just as well. You can also order from mexico or india but that is not legal, if caught, although rare.

Typical h pylori eradication therapy would be amoxiclav 1g+clarithromycin 500mg+famotidine 40mg all twice a day. 7-10days. In terms of ehec i would probably increase the amoxiclav to 3x/day just to be sure.

With your results you should be able to get a doctor to prescribe these if you can find one.

I have 560mg capsules of charcoal. How many would you take?

 

[CLASH]

Awesome thank you so much. It really means a lot to me. I'll see what my new Gi doctor will do.

With a confirmed EHEC, I would go directly to an MD. Antibiotics can be problematic here.

Treatment of enterohemorrhagic Escherichia coli (EHEC) infection and hemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS)

Verotoxigenic Escherichia coli (VTEC) are a specialized group of E. coli that can cause severe colonic disease and renal failure. Their pathogenicity derives from virulence factors that enable the bacteria to colonize the colon and deliver extremely powerful ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'd be careful with triple therapy for H.pylori as well, particularly in this situation.

 

[eugenics4dumies]

With a confirmed EHEC, I would go directly to an MD. Antibiotics can be problematic here.

Treatment of enterohemorrhagic Escherichia coli (EHEC) infection and hemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS)

Verotoxigenic Escherichia coli (VTEC) are a specialized group of E. coli that can cause severe colonic disease and renal failure. Their pathogenicity derives from virulence factors that enable the bacteria to colonize the colon and deliver extremely powerful ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'd be careful with triple therapy for H.pylori as well, particularly in this situation.

An MD as opposed to a GI doctor?

 

[Rasaari]

I have 560mg capsules of charcoal. How many would you take?

For me 30grams is noticeably better than 20grams.

 

[CLASH]

An MD as opposed to a GI doctor?

A GI doctor is often an MD with a specialization.

 

[Rasaari]

With a confirmed EHEC, I would go directly to an MD. Antibiotics can be problematic here.

Treatment of enterohemorrhagic Escherichia coli (EHEC) infection and hemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS)

Verotoxigenic Escherichia coli (VTEC) are a specialized group of E. coli that can cause severe colonic disease and renal failure. Their pathogenicity derives from virulence factors that enable the bacteria to colonize the colon and deliver extremely powerful ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'd be careful with triple therapy for H.pylori as well, particularly in this situation.

Yeah antibiotics for ehec are definitely controversial, mostly because many antibiotics increase the toxin production, especially in sub inhibitory concentrations.
But if after a year the symptoms haven't alleviated, other than charcoal there's not much else to do than antibiotics. Perhaps an antiserotonin agent could cull the toxin production? Perhaps the dr could order a susceptibility test?

 

[eugenics4dumies]

A GI doctor is often an MD with a specialization.

Gotcha thank you ?

 

[eugenics4dumies]

Yeah antibiotics for ehec are definitely controversial, mostly because many antibiotics increase the toxin production, especially in sub inhibitory concentrations.
But if after a year the symptoms haven't alleviated, other than charcoal there's not much else to do than antibiotics. Perhaps an antiserotonin agent could cull the toxin production? Perhaps the dr could order a susceptibility test?

I had thought about taking Cypro but wasn't sure if it was appropriate for the situation

 

[CLASH]

Yeah antibiotics for ehec are definitely controversial, mostly because many antibiotics increase the toxin production, especially in sub inhibitory concentrations.
But if after a year the symptoms haven't alleviated, other than charcoal there's not much else to do than antibiotics. Perhaps an antiserotonin agent could cull the toxin production? Perhaps the dr could order a susceptibility test?

I agree, this is what I was thinking when I responded on the podcast, but its best to do under the guidance of an MD to avoid HUS.

Slowing bowel transit time with an anti-serotonin and decreasing secretions with an anti-cholinergic may be a poor idea as it may allow the toxins to remain in contact for a longer time period with the bowel epithelium.

The charcoal idea is the most ideal from that perspective although its a bandaid solution at best and not without its risks (inhibition of nutrient absorption). The charcoal would have to be timed appropriately to minimize the risk.

Likely a comprehensive approach would be required including anti-microbials, as well as biofilm disruptors, quorum sensing inhibitors, possibly probiotics, and other pro-metabolic/ nutrient repletion strategies. Dietary management would also be key here. Basically I dont see a silver bullet, even with a C&S, although a C&S would be quite helpful. As a side note, regardless of C&S results, avoidance of the flouroquinolones and flagyl would be ideal. Hopefully something like an augmentin would suffice. Combining abx with high polyphenol/ antimicrobial herbs may help to minimize resistance.

 

[eugenics4dumies]

I agree, this is what I was thinking when I responded on the podcast, but its best to do under the guidance of an MD to avoid HUS.

Slowing bowel transit time with an anti-serotonin and decreasing secretions with an anti-cholinergic may be a poor idea as it may allow the toxins to remain in contact for a longer time period with the bowel epithelium.

The charcoal idea is the most ideal from that perspective although its a bandaid solution at best and not without its risks (inhibition of nutrient absorption). The charcoal would have to be timed appropriately to minimize the risk.

Likely a comprehensive approach would be required including anti-microbials, as well as biofilm disruptors, quorum sensing inhibitors, possibly probiotics, and other pro-metabolic/ nutrient repletion strategies. Dietary management would also be key here. Basically I dont see a silver bullet, even with a C&S, although a C&S would be quite helpful. As a side note, regardless of C&S results, avoidance of the flouroquinolones and flagyl would be ideal. Hopefully something like an augmentin would suffice. Combining abx with high polyphenol/ antimicrobial herbs may help to minimize resistance.

Oh hey didn't realize you were one of the guys on the show. Thank you for doing that. You guys gave me the motivation to actually go to a doctor. I'm usually very anti doctor for obvious reasons, that's why I've put it off. The doctor I did end up seeing was awful. She actually suggested I go on flagyl. I declined. Trying to get a GI appointment is proving annoying. And my holistic practitioner says that this amount of E. coli is so small that it shouldn't be a big issue, it's just an imbalance. But she's proved herself pretty unreliable. This is such a frustrating and scary problem.

 

[eugenics4dumies]

I agree, this is what I was thinking when I responded on the podcast, but its best to do under the guidance of an MD to avoid HUS.

Slowing bowel transit time with an anti-serotonin and decreasing secretions with an anti-cholinergic may be a poor idea as it may allow the toxins to remain in contact for a longer time period with the bowel epithelium.

The charcoal idea is the most ideal from that perspective although its a bandaid solution at best and not without its risks (inhibition of nutrient absorption). The charcoal would have to be timed appropriately to minimize the risk.

Likely a comprehensive approach would be required including anti-microbials, as well as biofilm disruptors, quorum sensing inhibitors, possibly probiotics, and other pro-metabolic/ nutrient repletion strategies. Dietary management would also be key here. Basically I dont see a silver bullet, even with a C&S, although a C&S would be quite helpful. As a side note, regardless of C&S results, avoidance of the flouroquinolones and flagyl would be ideal. Hopefully something like an augmentin would suffice. Combining abx with high polyphenol/ antimicrobial herbs may help to minimize resistance.

Also I wanted to add that I emailed Ray about it. Kept it pretty short, just said I have gut symptoms, hemorrhoids, and tested positive for enterohemorrhagic ecoli. I asked about treatment.
He asked my tsh and vit D status. I told him tsh is 2.7 but working on it with tyromax. D may be a bit low per a test a did a long while ago, not quite sure.
He then said starchy foods, powdered gelatin, and fruit can sometimes support the wrong bacteria. And that's it. He didn't seem very concerned.

 

[StephanF]

It looks you are a young couple, so this may not apply to you. An infected tooth can serve as a ‘reservoir’ for H-pylori, I found a review article citing several medical papers on that. So this infected tooth can re-infect the stomach and cause ulcers. My wife had a stomach ulcer and was subsequently treated for an infected tooth. Also root canal treated teeth can cause this. In a couple, only one may carry the infection in a tooth and from kissing the other may get infected.

Other remedies may be 500 ppm colloidal silver from Natural Innovative Products or chlorine dioxide (MMS) from KV Lab.

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