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Vitamins B1 & B2 Are Required For Estrogen Inactivation By Liver

haidut

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There have been several request to remove vitamin from the Energin formulation and also not much focus on its effects by us forum members. However, this older study, which also cites other studies, reminds us that thiamine (B1) and riboflavin (B2) are ESSENTIAL / MANDATORY for the liver to be able to properly inactivate estrogen and excrete it. Without sufficient levels of BOTH of these vitamins, estradiol inactivation does not occur. In other words, deficiency of either one effectively aborts the estradiol inactivation process.
Most medical professionals only talk about thiamine in terms of beri-beri disease and I personally know of no doctor who considers riboflavin deficiency a possibility in modern days. With that in mind, I wonder how much of the symptoms of beri-beri and alcoholic condtions like Wernicke-Korsakoff encephalopathy (both of which are caused by thiamine deficiency) are actually symptoms of estrogen toxicity. Note, this is pure speculation on my part, but at least alcoholic disease is known to involve accumulation of estrogen due to the damage to the liver by alcohol.
Anyways, the study (and the others it cites) found that B1 and B2 are essential, but other vitamins are not. Here are quotes that describe both groups.

http://www.jbc.org/content/154/1/79.full.pdf

"...Our results clearly demonstrate that, of the vitamins tested, riboflavin and thiamine are essential in
the metabolism of esradiol by liver slices. The inactivation of esradiol is dependent upon the concentration of these vitamins in the liver
."

"...In this category of “ineffective” vitamins are pyridoxine, pantothenic acid, biotin, and vitamin A (Table VI)."
 

narouz

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haidut said:
There have been several request to remove vitamin from the Energin formulation and also not much focus on its effects by us forum members. However, this older study, which also cites other studies, reminds us that thiamine (B1) and riboflavin (B2) are ESSENTIAL / MANDATORY for the liver to be able to properly inactivate estrogen and excrete it. Without sufficient levels of BOTH of these vitamins, estradiol inactivation does not occur. In other words, deficiency of either one effectively aborts the estradiol inactivation process.
Most medical professionals only talk about thiamine in terms of beri-beri disease and I personally know of no doctor who considers riboflavin deficiency a possibility in modern days. With that in mind, I wonder how much of the symptoms of beri-beri and alcoholic condtions like Wernicke-Korsakoff encephalopathy (both of which are caused by thiamine deficiency) are actually symptoms of estrogen toxicity. Note, this is pure speculation on my part, but at least alcoholic disease is known to involve accumulation of estrogen due to the damage to the liver by alcohol.
Anyways, the study (and the others it cites) found that B1 and B2 are essential, but other vitamins are not. Here are quotes that describe both groups.

http://www.jbc.org/content/154/1/79.full.pdf

"...Our results clearly demonstrate that, of the vitamins tested, riboflavin and thiamine are essential in
the metabolism of esradiol by liver slices. The inactivation of esradiol is dependent upon the concentration of these vitamins in the liver
."

"...In this category of “ineffective” vitamins are pyridoxine, pantothenic acid, biotin, and vitamin A (Table VI)."

Thanks, haidut.
I remember Peat saying exactly the same thing in an interview,
and specifically noting B1 and B2.
 

sugar daddy

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Apr 28, 2015
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Do you think that levels of both would be adequate from food sources or would supplementation be a good idea?

How much would be good amounts to supplement?
 

Nicholas

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i would be very interested in what might cause one to not process B1 & B2 (or the mechanism of deficiency if you are eating the stuff) besides digestive ills and basic imbalance... and especially if every system of the body is connected. the thing that is coming to me lately are two very important words: patience and consistency
 

Nicholas

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perhaps those who are already prone to estrogen dominance would explain a thiamine deficiency that is supposedly rare. also, seems coffee depletes thiamine, too.
 

haidut

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Nicholas said:
perhaps those who are already prone to estrogen dominance would explain a thiamine deficiency that is supposedly rare. also, seems coffee depletes thiamine, too.

I posted a few studies over a year ago on thiamine for treatment of fatigue in people with MS or Chron's. The studies noted that all examined patients had normal blood levels of thiamine but still responded strongly to supplementation. So, once again as per Peat's point, the blood is a very poor metric for what's going on inside the cell. It's the cellular saturation of thiamine that the studies found to matter for those diseases, and also theorized that a good portion of people nowadays are likely functionally deficient in B vitamins even though they may show normal blood levels.
 

Blinkyrocket

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Hey, Haidut, I've been meaning to ask, does your topical B vitamin skip absorption problems like the ones that coffee makes? When coffee is blames for thiamine problems is it intestinal absorption or somehing else? Cuz, if it's intestinal absorption than that's a huge point for your supplement.
 

haidut

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Blinkyrocket said:
Hey, Haidut, I've been meaning to ask, does your topical B vitamin skip absorption problems like the ones that coffee makes? When coffee is blames for thiamine problems is it intestinal absorption or somehing else? Cuz, if it's intestinal absorption than that's a huge point for your supplement.

As far as I know it is the coffee's interference with gut absorption that is the problem. Coffee contains chlorogenic acid and caffeic acid both of which chelate a number of bad things like iron and heavy metals, but also interfere with absorption of some vitamins from the intestine. To the best of my knowledge, once the vitamins are in the bloodstream (as through topical application) you can drink coffee and it should not interfere with the vitamins. If someone has a study showing the contrary please share it.
 

Nicholas

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i have noticed repeatedly that eating certain vitamin-fortified grain products seems to benefit me. Primarily, i notice that bowel function seems to get better and i lose trapped water - there's this sense that things are balancing better. I'm almost convinced that it's because of the added niacin and riboflavin (though i drink milk and eat eggs) or maybe even thiamine (though i eat a decent amount of pork). I've ordered Energin to see if i can confirm this possible B-vitamin problem.
 

Peata

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I looked around for the dose for B2. Would 100 mg. per day be enough?
 

haidut

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I looked around for the dose for B2. Would 100 mg. per day be enough?

It is too much according to Peat. In one interview he said he has seen people take 100mg+ B2 and he thinks it can cause too much stress, especially when exposed to the sun. When asked about optimal dose, he said 10mg - 20mg daily is best.
 

Peata

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It is too much according to Peat. In one interview he said he has seen people take 100mg+ B2 and he thinks it can cause too much stress, especially when exposed to the sun. When asked about optimal dose, he said 10mg - 20mg daily is best.

Awesome, thank you.

For B1, I've taken all different amounts for some time. Anywhere from 250 - 750 mg. Any thoughts on the best amount for the liver/estrogen purposes?
 

haidut

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Awesome, thank you.

For B1, I've taken all different amounts for some time. Anywhere from 250 - 750 mg. Any thoughts on the best amount for the liver/estrogen purposes?

The animal studies used less than that, so you should be good.
 

Tarmander

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It is too much according to Peat. In one interview he said he has seen people take 100mg+ B2 and he thinks it can cause too much stress, especially when exposed to the sun. When asked about optimal dose, he said 10mg - 20mg daily is best.

Can you explain the sun exposure comment? Or refer me to a place to read about it? I've been doing 400mg of regular riboflavin a day with some awesome results. I tried R5p but I could not find it by itself without some really ***t additives
 

haidut

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Can you explain the sun exposure comment? Or refer me to a place to read about it? I've been doing 400mg of regular riboflavin a day with some awesome results. I tried R5p but I could not find it by itself without some really **** additives

The effect is similar to the one from methylene blue. Ingesting either one of these and exposing yourself to bright red or sunlight generates too much ROS. Under some conditions (cancer) that is highly desirable but I think for most people it is not something you want to keep doing on a regular basis.
 

haidut

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Haidut, is low dose MB+red light included in generating too much ROS?

Don't know, but it is possible and may be one of the reasons Ray recommends lower doses MB just as he recommends lower doses B2.
 

Peata

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Got some B2 at the health food store and it was only sold in 100 mg capsules. I took one of them to get me going (and it's cloudy today) but after today I will dump about 1/4 of the capsule in my drink and go from there. Really hoping riboflavin is the missing piece to this estrogen/liver issue that has continued to plague me.
 

Amazoniac

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Ray's Nutrition for women:

upload_2016-11-15_15-44-15.png
upload_2016-11-15_15-46-16.png


Vitamins and Hormones (mentioned):
upload_2016-11-15_15-50-22.png
upload_2016-11-15_15-51-40.png

upload_2016-11-15_15-52-49.png

upload_2016-11-15_16-7-37.png

upload_2016-11-15_16-8-53.png

..this book ceases here.

Error encountered - PubMed - NCBI
 

kyle

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i have noticed repeatedly that eating certain vitamin-fortified grain products seems to benefit me. Primarily, i notice that bowel function seems to get better and i lose trapped water - there's this sense that things are balancing better. I'm almost convinced that it's because of the added niacin and riboflavin (though i drink milk and eat eggs) or maybe even thiamine (though i eat a decent amount of pork). I've ordered Energin to see if i can confirm this possible B-vitamin problem.

I've noticed millet and buckwheat work as good wheat alternatives. Sometimes potato/oj/rice feel so very unsatiating. I've tried sourdough which work ok until I eat like 8 slices in one meal and it backfires. :lol: The only things I still frequently get cravings for is that toasty grain/bread flavor. Also dark beer. Why is that? I wonder if those have good ratios of b1/b2 given I've had very positive experience supplementing those. I don't know if milk/eggs can be ideal sources either unless the feed/environment is high quality. If the b vitamins deplete quickly, it stands to reason a stressed animal might not produce high b-vitamin milk/eggs.
 

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