B Vitamins Curbing My Appetite?

[Jon]

Was wondering if any of you experienced with B vitamins (namely; B1,B2,B3,B6, and B7) found upon beginning a Peat style high carb low fat diet noticed that the B's taken in conjunction totally curbed your appetite?

I ask because this is what I'm thinking is going on with me and am very excited as I'm hoping this means I'm finally storing glycogen and increasing insulin and leptin sensitivity.

My daily routine is 2880kcals:
Protein:175g
Carbs:465g
Fat:35g

Supplements:
(All supplements dispersed w/6-8 meals a day)

B1-600mg
B2-100mg
B3(niacinamide)-1.5g
B6 (p5p)-15mg
B7-2mg
Tocovit-3 drops
True C-975mg
Gelatin-25-30g
Coffee-about 700-800mg of caffeine worth.

Number 1 thing I've noticed is that fruit is oddly more satisfying to me than before (as in takes less of it to make me feel full) and I'm not craving any fat despite being slightly under my minimal intake for hormonal production. Any opinions or experiences are welcomed!

 

[Jon]

EDIT: also forgot to mention K2 (mk-4)-30mg

 

[tara]

I think I notice some difference between including and omitting supplementary B-vits with my breakfast and supper. I think the food satisfies my appetite more with them.
I'm taking smaller doses than you of all of those B-vits (+ a little B5 and B12), but have tried higher doses of some of them before, and I don't think more was better for me. I'm less regular with other supps, and usually have little or no caffeine.

 

[Jon]

I think I notice some difference between including and omitting supplementary B-vits with my breakfast and supper. I think the food satisfies my appetite more with them.
I'm taking smaller doses than you of all of those B-vits (+ a little B5 and B12), but have tried higher doses of some of them before, and I don't think more was better for me. I'm less regular with other supps, and usually have little or no caffeine.

Thanks for the input :) good to have a consensus. I mega dose these for now to try to get back into glucose oxidation (hopefully it works) and once I build up momentum hopefully the need for such high doses will diminish. What issues did you run into with high doses?

 

[theLaw]

Keep in mind that you're young (22), muscular (great for keeping androgens up and liver health), and appear to have low body fat, so you're probably going to see some pronounced effects from standard supplement doses.

For instance, a 45 year old male who's 30lbs overweight with fatty liver might see very little effect from the same sup protocol.

Also, your caloric intake is pretty much spot on, so you shouldn't be hungry anyway.

 

[tara]

What issues did you run into with high doses?

Accidentally took more niacinamide than I intended, and got migraines a couple of times. I'm prone to migraines and might have got them anyway, but i'm not the only one to have got headaches or otehr blood sugar-low issues from too much. I tried high-dose B2 (up to 400mg for a bit) because some people find it prophylactic for migraine. Didn't notice bad effects, but didn't help, and people pointed me to some risks of down sides, so I scaled back [ETA:] to about 10mg. B1, I take 50-100mg doses, and I think they are enough. B6, I've read Peat say 10mg is a big dose - I aim for ~5mg/day.
I'm a perimenopausal female with chronic health issues and therefore not very fit, so very different situation from yours.

 

[Jon]

Keep in mind that you're young (22), muscular (great for keeping androgens up and liver health), and appear to have low body fat, so you're probably going to see some pronounced effects from standard supplement doses.

For instance, a 45 year old male who's 30lbs overweight with fatty liver might see very little effect from the same sup protocol.

Also, your caloric intake is pretty much spot on, so you shouldn't be hungry anyway.

Looks are decieving had blood sugar issues for a long time. I have a good feeling it's a combonation of hypothyroid and high stress. I tried just 80mg of aspirin and felt like death lol. Every time I've tried anything that encourages glucose oxidation I get cold, fatigued, and sleep unusually well (I have sleep disturbance issues) and as far as my calories go, I could normally eat probably 3 times that and not blink lol which is why me feeling totally satiated on maintenance calories is wayyy out of the norm lol. I also have cold temps all the time 96.6-97 at most but with the inclusion of niacinamide my temp will stay at 97.8 and not drop for atleast 8hrs.

Honestly I'm just desperate to get healthy at a young age because my family has some scary history of illness and I want to do everything I can to avoid it. Any advice you might have is welcomed lol

 

[theLaw]

Looks are decieving had blood sugar issues for a long time. I have a good feeling it's a combonation of hypothyroid and high stress. I tried just 80mg of aspirin and felt like death lol. Every time I've tried anything that encourages glucose oxidation I get cold, fatigued, and sleep unusually well (I have sleep disturbance issues) and as far as my calories go, I could normally eat probably 3 times that and not blink lol which is why me feeling totally satiated on maintenance calories is wayyy out of the norm lol. I also have cold temps all the time 96.6-97 at most but with the inclusion of niacinamide my temp will stay at 97.8 and not drop for atleast 8hrs.

Honestly I'm just desperate to get healthy at a young age because my family has some scary history of illness and I want to do everything I can to avoid it. Any advice you might have is welcomed lol

Got it.

Based on my personal experience with some similar issues, here is what I would suggest:

1. Thyroid.

TyroMix - Liquid T3/T4 For Lab/research Use

2. Eat as much as you need while trying to avoid pufa. Your diet can be less than perfect while you lower stress, then it will be much easier.

3. Lower caffeine to small doses (50mg) throughout the day. I'm willing to bet that you are currently getting a stress response from the high-dose caffeine.

4. Drink room-temp apple juice throughout the day (literally every hour) to maintain blood sugar. You should notice an immediate improvement if you don't drink too much at once.

5. When you wake up in the middle of the night...............eat. Repeat if necessary. When I first started I had to get up 3-4 times to refuel during the night with 1C fat free milk + sugar.

6. 1 ounce beef liver + 1 egg per day for micros.

7. Add BCAA's for digestion and protein assimilation (link below)

Finally, you might just be experiencing an issue with endotoxin, so 4T activated charcoal with 16 ounces juice will clean out your gut. Might take a few attempts to get all of it, and keep an eye out for any fiber intake that might feed bacteria.

Here's a few helpful links moving forward:

Optimal diet for increasing lifespan

And then begin by solving the big 3:

+ Clean the Liver

Caffeine Reverses Stress, Insulin Resistance, Hypertension

High Protein Diet Prevents & Reverses Fatty Liver Disease (steatosis)

+ Fix Digestive Issues

Amino Acid Supplementation For People With Poor Digestion

Ray Peat Potato Protein Soup (RPPPS)

Cyproheptadine - A Wonder Drug?

+ Reduce PUFA in Tissues down to almost nothing

PUFA Depletion Can (probably) Be Accomplished In 30 Days!

Haidut's Summary Of PUFA

VoS uncoupling thread

Here's VOS's posts about daily macros + micros + sups (halfway down the page):

Ray Peat Diet / Protocol Name?

Cheers!

This is not a quick-fix regiment for weekend warriors, but an opportunity to change your life and health for the better, so take this seriously by reading and testing as much as possible (the search function is far more effective and efficient than any member's advice).

 

[tara]

and as far as my calories go, I could normally eat probably 3 times that and not blink lol which is why me feeling totally satiated on maintenance calories is wayyy out of the norm lol. I also have cold temps all the time 96.6-97 at most but with the inclusion of niacinamide my temp will stay at 97.8 and not drop for atleast 8hrs.

Honestly I'm just desperate to get healthy at a young age

If that's a picture of you, then it could be that your hunger is your body giving you a perfectly sound indicator that it would be beneficial to eat more. At 22 yrs, most young men need well over 3000 cals to maintain a healthy metabolism and grow to a healthy maturity, according to data gathered by Gwyneth Olwyn (Phases of Recovery From An Eating Disorder Part 4).

 

[Jon]

Got it.

Based on my personal experience with some similar issues, here is what I would suggest:

1. Thyroid.

TyroMix - Liquid T3/T4 For Lab/research Use

2. Eat as much as you need while trying to avoid pufa. Your diet can be less than perfect while you lower stress, then it will be much easier.

3. Lower caffeine to small doses (50mg) throughout the day. I'm willing to bet that you are currently getting a stress response from the high-dose caffeine.

4. Drink room-temp apple juice throughout the day (literally every hour) to maintain blood sugar. You should notice an immediate improvement if you don't drink too much at once.

5. When you wake up in the middle of the night...............eat. Repeat if necessary. When I first started I had to get up 3-4 times to refuel during the night with 1C fat free milk + sugar.

6. 1 ounce beef liver + 1 egg per day for micros.

7. Add BCAA's for digestion and protein assimilation (link below)

Finally, you might just be experiencing an issue with endotoxin, so 4T activated charcoal with 16 ounces juice will clean out your gut. Might take a few attempts to get all of it, and keep an eye out for any fiber intake that might feed bacteria.

Here's a few helpful links moving forward:

Optimal diet for increasing lifespan

And then begin by solving the big 3:

+ Clean the Liver

Caffeine Reverses Stress, Insulin Resistance, Hypertension

High Protein Diet Prevents & Reverses Fatty Liver Disease (steatosis)

+ Fix Digestive Issues

Amino Acid Supplementation For People With Poor Digestion

Ray Peat Potato Protein Soup (RPPPS)

Cyproheptadine - A Wonder Drug?

+ Reduce PUFA in Tissues down to almost nothing

PUFA Depletion Can (probably) Be Accomplished In 30 Days!

Haidut's Summary Of PUFA

VoS uncoupling thread

Here's VOS's posts about daily macros + micros + sups (halfway down the page):

Ray Peat Diet / Protocol Name?

Cheers!

This is not a quick-fix regiment for weekend warriors, but an opportunity to change your life and health for the better, so take this seriously by reading and testing as much as possible (the search function is far more effective and efficient than any member's advice).

I really appreciate your advice man! I will take it seriously and do my best to apply it.

I really have researched a lot, my biggest issue when trying to approach my situation from the wisest angle is the contradictory outcomes people have reported with different protocols. For instance some people do terrible with B vitamins but they haven't effected me negatively (save a minor headache from taking them too far from food) but I want to be smart and not worsen things which is why I like to inquire the extremely nice people like yourself who have experience with this stuff.

A question on thyroid? I have some American biologics but have yet to start it because I wasn't really sure on the best way to do so? I would love to try the Ideal Labs stuff but I don't want to use dmso. Do you think the AB is ok? Or should I scrap that and try nutrimeds?

 

[Jon]

If that's a picture of you, then it could be that your hunger is your body giving you a perfectly sound indicator that it would be beneficial to eat more. At 22 yrs, most young men need well over 3000 cals to maintain a healthy metabolism and grow to a healthy maturity, according to data gathered by Gwyneth Olwyn (Phases of Recovery From An Eating Disorder Part 4).

Yes that's me lol but I'm not as lean now. That was for a bodybuilding show alil while back. I'm 28yrs old but I would be happy if I were still growing! I think you're right though, I'm sure my body needs alittle more calories, I just don't want to gain weight too fast or too much on the road to recovery. Thanks for your input :)

 

[theLaw]

I really appreciate your advice man! I will take it seriously and do my best to apply it.

I really have researched a lot, my biggest issue when trying to approach my situation from the wisest angle is the contradictory outcomes people have reported with different protocols. For instance some people do terrible with B vitamins but they haven't effected me negatively (save a minor headache from taking them too far from food) but I want to be smart and not worsen things which is why I like to inquire the extremely nice people like yourself who have experience with this stuff.

A question on thyroid? I have some American biologics but have yet to start it because I wasn't really sure on the best way to do so? I would love to try the Ideal Labs stuff but I don't want to use dmso. Do you think the AB is ok? Or should I scrap that and try nutrimeds?

I've been a vocal opponent of dmso after several uncomfortable experiences with many Idealabs products.

Having said that, all of those issues disappeared once I ingested it instead of applying it topically, which is in-line with Haidut's posts about thyroid and liver health.

Seeing as Thyroid dosing is tricky, I prefer to stick to Haidut's sups regardless of the dmso, which by all accounts is very little.

Not familiar with AB, but this resource might help:

Natural desiccated thyroid products - Toxinless

One last note: You'll notice that many of the studies posted here use an IV to administer foods/chemicals for testing. This constant dosing might just be a secret weapon to see quick results by keeping the body out of a stress-state, thus allowing it to heal properly.

 

[Prosper]

At 22 yrs, most young men need well over 3000 cals to maintain a healthy metabolism and grow to a healthy maturity, according to data gathered by Gwyneth Olwyn (Phases of Recovery From An Eating Disorder Part 4).

That's an interesting article series, thanks for sharing. One thing that stood out for me was: "16- to 17-year-old non-dieting males actually eat 3833 kcal/day to support development to age 25." What does this mean in practice? Is inadequate nutrition before 25 years of age equal to missing opportunities for physical and mental development for good? Or, is the missed/unachieved growth potential still recoverable if metabolism is restored after 25?

For example, I did not eat a lot from ages 19-23 or so. I'm 24 now and finally eating enough. Was some potential permanently lost?

 

[tara]

What does this mean in practice? Is inadequate nutrition before 25 years of age equal to missing opportunities for physical and mental development for good? Or, is the missed/unachieved growth potential still recoverable if metabolism is restored after 25?

Good question. Not sure if I know the answer. I'm guessing you'd have a good chance at recovering quite a lot of the lost ground if you can consistently meet nutritional needs from now. But whether there is some part of the potential that is missed - it would be hard to know, wouldn't it? Probably not much to be done about either way. I think Olwyn talks about it being much harder to get full physical recovery if the undereating persists for decades.

 

[Prosper]

Good question. Not sure if I know the answer. I'm guessing you'd have a good chance at recovering quite a lot of the lost ground if you can consistently meet nutritional needs from now. But whether there is some part of the potential that is missed - it would be hard to know, wouldn't it? Probably not much to be done about either way. I think Olwyn talks about it being much harder to get full physical recovery if the undereating persists for decades.

Yeah, seems reasonable. What made me wonder about this is that when I was a young child it was predicted that I would grow 2-3 inches taller than my dad, yet the height growth stalled at 3 inches below him . I also have smaller wrists and weaker beard than him . Overall I'm naturally lean, muscular and athletic looking (=well fed?), so it could be that my current dimensions simply are my "genetic potential" and the childhood prediction was erroneous. In some way it's easier to accept genetically inherited smaller frame than view it as a result of something having gone wrong during growth.

I doubt much physical change is going to happen in this regard at this age, although there are some anecdotes of people growing into their late 20s online. It would be NICE, but it's not something I dare to expect or wish for. Anyways, thanks for your reply.

 

[HDD]

Yeah, seems reasonable. What made me wonder about this is that when I was a young child it was predicted that I would grow 2-3 inches taller than my dad, yet the height growth stalled at 3 inches below him . I also have smaller wrists and weaker beard than him . Overall I'm naturally lean, muscular and athletic looking (=well fed?), so it could be that my current dimensions simply are my "genetic potential" and the childhood prediction was erroneous. In some way it's easier to accept genetically inherited smaller frame than view it as a result of something having gone wrong during growth.

I doubt much physical change is going to happen in this regard at this age, although there are some anecdotes of people growing into their late 20s online. It would be NICE, but it's not something I dare to expect or wish for. Anyways, thanks for your reply.

Ray Peat grew an inch,iirc, in his 40's. I think he was taking dhea?. He also said that anorexics brain can grow when they recover.

 

[Jon]

Ray Peat grew an inch,iirc, in his 40's. I think he was taking dhea?. He also said that anorexics brain can grow when they recover.

GIMME ALL THE DHEA!!

Oh man if I grew an inch at 28 I think I'd throw myself a literal party lol I can't imagine how dialed in your protocol would have to be to make this happen though.

 

[tara]

Yeah, seems reasonable. What made me wonder about this is that when I was a young child it was predicted that I would grow 2-3 inches taller than my dad, yet the height growth stalled at 3 inches below him . I also have smaller wrists and weaker beard than him . Overall I'm naturally lean, muscular and athletic looking (=well fed?), so it could be that my current dimensions simply are my "genetic potential" and the childhood prediction was erroneous. In some way it's easier to accept genetically inherited smaller frame than view it as a result of something having gone wrong during growth.

Probably never going to know. But I think a significant part of the growth that would normally happen in the twenties is the broadening and thickening of the skeleton.