Opioid Addicition Recovery Plan

[Soren]

Looking for advice to help someone trying to recover from Opioid addiction

He is in his 20s and has stopped using before but I believe he is on something at the moment he is very depressed but possibly it is pot and not opioids. He very much wants to get out of his current situation so he is looking to improve. But he is definitely in a state of learned helplessness and it is creating a vicious cycle by which his body is trying to relieve the stress anyway it can. Bad environment, poor diet, bad sleep etc.

He has taken some initial steps to improve his situation and he is going to be in a very good environment for the next few months, lots sunshine good weather healthy food etc hopefully this environment gives him better direction and purpose as he currently does not have a job.

I am in the process of putting together an overall plan for him that will minimize his stress, mild exercise, metabolic focused eating plan plenty of time outside and good work to keep him focused. When I have the full plan I will post it to this thread.

What I need help with is supplement recommendations.

The ones I have in mind at the moment are the following;

Part 1 Anti-Serotonin, Anti-Cortisol & Pro-Dopamine Supplements

Cyproheptadine
Given that there are many studies showing that serotonin is involved in the addiction process and that blocking its effects have been shown to relive and treat addiction a general serotonin antagonist such as cyproheptadine is a very important factor.

The question is dosage. Most people including peat advise that one should start with just 1mg and build up but given someone going through withdrawl that perhaps the dose should be higher. Would welcome any recommendations on this.

1mg per day?

Activated Charcoal
Over 90% of serotonin is produced in the gut. Activated charcoal is a good way to combat this. This will help to oppose endotoxin which opioids have been shown to increase pain through the TLR4 "recepetor".
Opioids Increase Pain Through Endotoxin Receptor, Minocycline Reverses The Effect.

The dose I was thinking here is one large tablespoon twice per week although a dose of every other day for the first week might be wise. Probably before bed to minimize charcoal absorption of nutrients.

Metergoline
Another general serotonin antagonist but with added benefits that I do not think Cyproheptadine has. It is also anti-prolactin and pro-dopamine. For my purposes of Opioid addiction I am not sure which supplement would be better Metergoline or Cyproheptadine.

I am leaning towards metergoline due to its dopamine agonism. Advice on this welcome.

Check out @haidut post for a more info.
Metergoline - Liquid Serotonin Antagonist For Lab/R&D

Lisuride
Dopamegnic and anti-serotonin I think the combination of this and metergoline could have a very powerful effect. However I am very worried about DAWS (dopamine withdrawal syndrome) dopamine agonism dependence and taking this could cause a down-regulation of dopamine and worsen the situation. However there have been human studies with doses of 25mcg that so far have not found evidence of DAWS but I will be using with extreme caution.

Also if he has been on substances that increase serotonin levels I am nervous about putting him on an ergot derivative. Perhaps I will begin him on Metergoline and other serotonin lowering substances then work in a low dose of Lisuride.

Part 2 Metabolism Boosting Supplements
Supplements that boost metabolism have been shown to improve the whole organism and help to treat addiction by lowering stress hormones. Listed below some of the ones that immediately come to mind that would be helpful. Would welcome suggestions.

Rosacea, inflammation, and aging: The inefficiency of stress
"...All of the nutritional factors that participate in mitochondrial respiration contribute to maintaining a balance between excessive excitation and protective inhibition. Riboflavin, coenzyme Q10, vitamin K, niacinamide, thiamine, and selenium are the nutrients that most directly relate to mitochondrial energy production."

Methyelene Blue
Been shown to treat a host of neurological disorders although it can increase serotonin. Can't find any studies on addiction.

Vitamin K

B-Vitamins (Niacinamide, thiamine, etc)

Cardenosine (atp)
Cardenosine - Liquid Product For R&D

B-Vitamins

Magnesium

Vitamin E

Mitolipin
MitoLipin - Liquid Saturated Phosphatidylcholine (PC) Mix

Red Light Therapy

Vitamin D from Sunlight.

Gelatin

Anyway that is all I an think of for now if anyone has any suggestions or would like to share their own experiences with substance addiction please do.

Any recommendations on dosing are very much appreciated I will post a more complete dosing schedule and overall plan soon for anyone who is interested and I will also update on any progress.

Many Thanks.

 

[olive]

NSI-189 reduces cravings for drugs, treats depression and heals the brain.

BCP-157 is also worth looking into.

Lisuride and cyproheptadine together may drop dopamine too low, exhasberating the problem.

Avoid cow dairy and wheat.

LDN might be worth looking into also but I’m not too familiar.

 

[General Orange]

4-Caffeoyl-1,5-quinide (4-caffeoylquinic-1,5-lactone or 4-CQL) is found in roasted coffee beans. It is formed by lactonization of 4-O-caffeoylquinic acid during the roasting process.[1]
It is reported to possess opioid antagonist properties in mice.[2] - wikipedia

-deleted-

edit: foods that contain 4-Caffeoylquinic acid

Im not sure how to address this, but if the user is already using coffee, then subject should not stop taking it for the coffee already upregulated the opiod receptor sensitivity. So to stop drinking coffee should make recovery worse.

On the other hand, slowly withdrawing coffee at the same time as withdrawel from opiods using a selective opiod antagonist should be better way to get back to a baseline of homeostasis. Then after successful opiod withdrawel, coffee can be reintroduced and sensitize opiod receptors again, maybe even hardening against abuse...

 

[Soren]

NSI-189 reduces cravings for drugs, treats depression and heals the brain.

BCP-157 is also worth looking into.

Lisuride and cyproheptadine together may drop dopamine too low, exhasberating the problem.

Avoid cow dairy and wheat.

LDN might be worth looking into also but I’m not too familiar.

Thanks Olive.

If Lisuride is a dopamine agonist why would it lower Dopamine? Cyproheptadine i would think would also increase dopamine through its opposition to serotonin. Are you saying that they will cause DAWS (dopamine agonist withdrawal).

 

[Soren]

-deleted-

edit: foods that contain 4-Caffeoylquinic acid

Im not sure how to address this, but if the user is already using coffee, then subject should not stop taking it for the coffee already upregulated the opiod receptor sensitivity. So to stop drinking coffee should make recovery worse.

On the other hand, slowly withdrawing coffee at the same time as withdrawel from opiods using a selective opiod antagonist should be better way to get back to a baseline of homeostasis. Then after successful opiod withdrawel, coffee can be reintroduced and sensitize opiod receptors again, maybe even hardening against abuse...

Thanks Orange. I don't think he is a heavy coffee drinker but he does have a cup in the morning but that is it.

 

[Soren]

NSI-189 reduces cravings for drugs, treats depression and heals the brain.

BCP-157 is also worth looking into.

I've never heard of NSI-189. Wikipedia doesn't seem to say much either. Could you tell me what is it's method of action, is it a dopamine agonist, serotonin antagonist, anti-cortisol?

I think "BCP-157" is actually BPC-157 and while it looks interesting it is still very new and does not have many studies or research behind it.

Also both of these substances look like they would be very difficult to acquire.

 

[Daft]

Niagen therapy I believe is used for addiction and seems quite effective if you search for videos on that, you could look into that, or high dose niacinamide as a potential alternative

 

[Terma]

Holy ***t DO NOT USE the advice on this forum for opioid withdrawal - you will send your friend straight back into addiction.

THESE SUBSTANCES ARE ALL SUPER WEAK compared to opioids, and basically useless garbage.

THERE IS NOTHING SIMILAR between OPIOID and NON-OPIOID (cannabis or other) withdrawal.

If he has clinical or subclinical thyroid issues then get him on thyroid before doing anything else, but for the most part, he will suffer badly no matter what you do here.

IF HE IS ON OPIOIDS - YOU MUST DETERMINE THIS FIRST - AND ASSUMING HE IS ON OPIOIDS, THEN:

You can either taper him off using suboxone, or cold turkey.

Cold turkey requires strong GABA/VGCC substances such as Baclofen or Lyrica to get through.

If he has no job you can confine him to a room and CT him off for about a week and then get him through PAWS afterward (1-2 months; he might not get this, but you have to assume he will).

Do not do this off some random forum advice; you will just send him back into addiction.

I was an extreme Tianeptine addict, which is - surprisingly - one of the worst opioids out there second only to fentanyl (even heroin has been deemed comparable to tianeptine addiction) - and I can tell you there are few addictions out there that compare.

You need to treat this very seriously for the sake of your friend.

Sorry I may not be here this week to answer more.

If he wants to taper, get him suboxone long-term. If he wants to CT, get him Lyrica, as much as you can get from a doctor. You give him Lyrica for 3-4 days, about 1-2 days after he takes his last opioid dose. Too long Lyrica he will eventually develop a tolerance to that drug. He will go through hell for 3-5 days no matter what, but Lyrica will keep him from clawing your eyes out and selling your dirt bike for drugs.

This is serious - do not **** around with this. Stay with him and be prepared to take him to the hospital at any time. If his addiction was bad, he could die from cardiovascular complications from CT.

If he CTs from opioids he could easily try to commit suicide. This is no joke and Ray Peat has no experience with this.

-------

If he's on cannabis alone, it's a completely different story, it does not even remotely compare.

Stupid ***t like "sunshine" means nothing to an opioid addict, while it might make somewhat a difference to a cannabis fiend.

Really, get informed here, for his sake.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Gaba and progesterone.

 

[Soren]

Holy ***t DO NOT USE the advice on this forum for opioid withdrawal - you will send your friend straight back into addiction.

THESE SUBSTANCES ARE ALL SUPER WEAK compared to opioids, and basically useless garbage.

THERE IS NOTHING SIMILAR between OPIOID and NON-OPIOID (cannabis or other) withdrawal.

If he has clinical or subclinical thyroid issues then get him on thyroid before doing anything else, but for the most part, he will suffer badly no matter what you do here.

IF HE IS ON OPIOIDS - YOU MUST DETERMINE THIS FIRST - AND ASSUMING HE IS ON OPIOIDS, THEN:

You can either taper him off using suboxone, or cold turkey.

Cold turkey requires strong GABA/VGCC substances such as Baclofen or Lyrica to get through.

If he has no job you can confine him to a room and CT him off for about a week and then get him through PAWS afterward (1-2 months; he might not get this, but you have to assume he will).

Do not do this off some random forum advice; you will just send him back into addiction.

I was an extreme Tianeptine addict, which is - surprisingly - one of the worst opioids out there second only to fentanyl (even heroin has been deemed comparable to tianeptine addiction) - and I can tell you there are few addictions out there that compare.

You need to treat this very seriously for the sake of your friend.

Sorry I may not be here this week to answer more.

If he wants to taper, get him suboxone long-term. If he wants to CT, get him Lyrica, as much as you can get from a doctor. You give him Lyrica for 3-4 days, about 1-2 days after he takes his last opioid dose. Too long Lyrica he will eventually develop a tolerance to that drug. He will go through hell for 3-5 days no matter what, but Lyrica will keep him from clawing your eyes out and selling your dirt bike for drugs.

This is serious - do not **** around with this. Stay with him and be prepared to take him to the hospital at any time. If his addiction was bad, he could die from cardiovascular complications from CT.

If he CTs from opioids he could easily try to commit suicide. This is no joke and Ray Peat has no experience with this.

-------

If he's on cannabis alone, it's a completely different story, it does not even remotely compare.

Stupid ***t like "sunshine" means nothing to an opioid addict, while it might make somewhat a difference to a cannabis fiend.

Really, get informed here, for his sake.

Thank you for your response. He has tapered off before using suboxone.

I am well aware of how much suffering it puts one through as I was with him 24 hours a day for the first time he went through a detox.

I think it is wrong to say that all the treatments recommended so far are "useless garbage". Yes obviously sunshine is not as powerful as opioids but it does have a beneficial effect not saying it is going to cure him or anything but it is certainly part of an overall better environment which is important.

And also the serotonin antagonists recommended are very powerful and have been studied in a clinical setting to help with addiction.

As has red light therapy been shown to have great potential for helping to treat cocaine addiction.

 

[Terma]

Yes, the point is only that the natural endorphin/opioid effects from sunlight, environment and even exercise are minuscule compared to what drugs give you, so they are no substitute for GABA/VGCC agonists/antagonists or suboxone. They'll only make a dent once he's completely jumped off opioids (for the average addict) and going through PAWS, but even then you have to cross your fingers. I wish red light and sunlight made a difference for me on that level, I've wasted so much money.

 

[Soren]

Yes, the point is only that the natural endorphin/opioid effects from sunlight, environment and even exercise are minuscule compared to what drugs give you, so they are no substitute for GABA/VGCC agonists/antagonists or suboxone. They'll only make a dent once he's completely jumped off opioids (for the average addict) and going through PAWS, but even then you have to cross your fingers. I wish red light and sunlight made a difference for me on that level, I've wasted so much money.

I agree with you on sunlight being very mild. But a full body red light therapy has very powerful effect on par with powerful drugs. But the main weapons in the arsenal are going to be serotonin antagonists, GABA agonists and Dopamine agonists.

 

[Frankdee20]

The amino acid D - Phenylalanine is said to prevent the breakdown of endogenous opiods. It is an enkelphinase inhibitor.

 

[Frankdee20]

I have withdrawn from heroin many times, there truly is no substitute to attenuate that. Methadone was the only option back then, but that is replacing a short acting opiate with a long acting opiod. Withdrawal is not life threatening, but my God, it is so drawn out, and miserable. You will not sleep right, ***t right, eat right, feel right, for days upon weeks.

 

[Makrosky]

Holy ***t DO NOT USE the advice on this forum for opioid withdrawal - you will send your friend straight back into addiction.

THESE SUBSTANCES ARE ALL SUPER WEAK compared to opioids, and basically useless garbage.

THERE IS NOTHING SIMILAR between OPIOID and NON-OPIOID (cannabis or other) withdrawal.

If he has clinical or subclinical thyroid issues then get him on thyroid before doing anything else, but for the most part, he will suffer badly no matter what you do here.

IF HE IS ON OPIOIDS - YOU MUST DETERMINE THIS FIRST - AND ASSUMING HE IS ON OPIOIDS, THEN:

You can either taper him off using suboxone, or cold turkey.

Cold turkey requires strong GABA/VGCC substances such as Baclofen or Lyrica to get through.

If he has no job you can confine him to a room and CT him off for about a week and then get him through PAWS afterward (1-2 months; he might not get this, but you have to assume he will).

Do not do this off some random forum advice; you will just send him back into addiction.

I was an extreme Tianeptine addict, which is - surprisingly - one of the worst opioids out there second only to fentanyl (even heroin has been deemed comparable to tianeptine addiction) - and I can tell you there are few addictions out there that compare.

You need to treat this very seriously for the sake of your friend.

Sorry I may not be here this week to answer more.

If he wants to taper, get him suboxone long-term. If he wants to CT, get him Lyrica, as much as you can get from a doctor. You give him Lyrica for 3-4 days, about 1-2 days after he takes his last opioid dose. Too long Lyrica he will eventually develop a tolerance to that drug. He will go through hell for 3-5 days no matter what, but Lyrica will keep him from clawing your eyes out and selling your dirt bike for drugs.

This is serious - do not **** around with this. Stay with him and be prepared to take him to the hospital at any time. If his addiction was bad, he could die from cardiovascular complications from CT.

If he CTs from opioids he could easily try to commit suicide. This is no joke and Ray Peat has no experience with this.

-------

If he's on cannabis alone, it's a completely different story, it does not even remotely compare.

Stupid ***t like "sunshine" means nothing to an opioid addict, while it might make somewhat a difference to a cannabis fiend.

Really, get informed here, for his sake.

What tianeptine doses were you using for it to be so extremely addictive?

 

[Soren]

The founder of Thor Laser the creators of the NovoThor light bed and one of the oldest and biggest manufactures of laser light devices spoke in front of congress about the use of red light to help treat Opioid addiction. There were also other speakers in favour of red light therapy i don't know what their connection to NovoThor is.

I think the NovoThor and other Thor products are absurdly overpriced but it is good to see that things like red light might finally be breaking into the mainstream for treatments of things beyond cosmetic applications.



Congress PBM – THE SCIENCE & PROMISE OF PHOTOBIOMODULATION (PBM)

 

[danishispsychic]

Fasting, Juicing ( green and fruit ) Red Light, Colonics, Salt Water Flushes, - Refeeds like every 3 or 4 days and then back on it- Master Cleanse with fresh lemon, break fast with Veg ( Soup ) Broth, do MC for as long as 10 days ( most people wont make it that far ) then re-feed for a bit and repeat the above. No use in putting new things in until the colon, kidneys and liver are free of junk. Epsom Salt baths ( strong ones ) each night weather fasting or not. CBD flowers and oil/tea helps a lot too when going through detox if you are used to Marijuana. Peppermint tea, ginger tea, chamomille tea. Coffee Enemas, ACV Enemas. Raw raw raw, fruit fruit fruit.

 

[Frankdee20]

Ultimately time, nobody mentions the brain needs time to readjust to not having its receptors jacked with

 

[Terma]

What tianeptine doses were you using for it to be so extremely addictive?

It wasn't "addictive" in the usual sense, just very fast forming dependency. 50-70mg for a few days is all it took to become dependent enough to get withdrawals, though I tried way higher. But I learned I got it worse than most people for whatever reason, so it wasn't supposed to reflect on the drug. It was worst withdrawals of anything I ever experienced, and I must have gone through it 20 times holding on to dear life (not a single supplement/treatment in the world - except gabapentin/lyrica/phenibut - made a dent in it, and I had time to try it all). The Restless Legs Syndrome rebound is out of this world. Overall a little worse than a regular opioid. Others like phenibut don't even come close (and I've done like 4-7g doses of it), granted I don't do hard drugs every day. I was taking progesterone a lot during that time and they synergise, so I started to be able to read scientific articles like a true amateur. Strange but I have no regrets about it. I wouldn't say I was "addicted" since it didn't really fit any pattern except for the opioid withdrawal progression (terrible peak at 3-4 days).

 

[Makrosky]

It wasn't "addictive" in the usual sense, just very fast forming dependency. 50-70mg for a few days is all it took to become dependent enough to get withdrawals, though I tried way higher. But I learned I got it worse than most people for whatever reason, so it wasn't supposed to reflect on the drug. It was worst withdrawals of anything I ever experienced, and I must have gone through it 20 times holding on to dear life (not a single supplement/treatment in the world - except gabapentin/lyrica/phenibut - made a dent in it, and I had time to try it all). The Restless Legs Syndrome rebound is out of this world. Overall a little worse than a regular opioid. Others like phenibut don't even come close (and I've done like 4-7g doses of it), granted I don't do hard drugs every day. I was taking progesterone a lot during that time and they synergise, so I started to be able to read scientific articles like a true amateur. Strange but I have no regrets about it. I wouldn't say I was "addicted" since it didn't really fit any pattern except for the opioid withdrawal progression (terrible peak at 3-4 days).

Thanks for clarifying. It must be your personal biochemistry that caused such withdrawals. The normal dose is 12,5mg x 3 a day and at times I have taken much higher doses, maybe in the ammounts like 70mg or maybe more (it was difficult to guess the dosage with pure powder). I have used both powder from ebay and commercial one from the pharmacy. NEVER EVER I had even a remote feeling of addiction or withdrawal. I could take it for months and stop cold turkey without any symptom. And it is to the best of my knowledge that there are many more people like that.

Cheers!