• tca300: I understand this is off topic from what you typically teach, but I was wondering if you have run across any information or learned on your own, things that help people grieve over lost loved ones, and or fear of losing others to death? Thank you!

    Ray Peat: It activates the “helplessness” reactions in the body, stress weakening your own life, and I think it can help to get out of that if you think of your life as a continuation of theirs—the same life, though with fewer bodies.

    Rest in Paradise, Raymond Peat  October 12, 1936 - November 24 2022

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blob69

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This one is for cat lovers :cat:

Recently a stray cat brought kittens to our house so we're now in charge of feeding four cats. So I'm wondering, do cats need carbohydrates and what type would be best for them? I know they officially don't, or at least not much, but I recall Ray once saying that some cats are in fact fond of sweets. As far as I know completely fresh meat (like a caught mouse) contains some glycogen which is not present in older meat which is usually fed to cats.

Also, what is your experience with feeding cats, what kind of food do they like and thrive on?
 

Nokoni

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This one is for cat lovers :cat:

Recently a stray cat brought kittens to our house so we're now in charge of feeding four cats. So I'm wondering, do cats need carbohydrates and what type would be best for them? I know they officially don't, or at least not much, but I recall Ray once saying that some cats are in fact fond of sweets. As far as I know completely fresh meat (like a caught mouse) contains some glycogen which is not present in older meat which is usually fed to cats.

Also, what is your experience with feeding cats, what kind of food do they like and thrive on?
First of all, congratulations. I once found an injured cat and took her home and soon found myself the proud papa of 6 newborn kittens in a one bedroom apartment. As for carbs, cats can digest carbs, at least in small amounts. When they eat their prey they eat everything, including stomach contents, though often leaving behind the gall bladder. As for nutrition in general, I would go commercial. It's not easy getting everything they need in a palatable package. Both canned and kibble are probably best. With only kibble they might not get enough water, which can cause urinary problems, especially for males. I add an extra teaspoon of water to the canned food to be sure. With only canned they might not get enough crunch for mouth and teeth health. If you decide to roll your own, find one of the sites that give you the necessary information, such as the urgent need for taurine. Good luck and have fun.
 

SOMO

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First of all, congratulations. I once found an injured cat and took her home and soon found myself the proud papa of 6 newborn kittens in a one bedroom apartment. As for carbs, cats can digest carbs, at least in small amounts. When they eat their prey they eat everything, including stomach contents, though often leaving behind the gall bladder. As for nutrition in general, I would go commercial. It's not easy getting everything they need in a palatable package. Both canned and kibble are probably best. With only kibble they might not get enough water, which can cause urinary problems, especially for males. I add an extra teaspoon of water to the canned food to be sure. With only canned they might not get enough crunch for mouth and teeth health. If you decide to roll your own, find one of the sites that give you the necessary information, such as the urgent need for taurine. Good luck and have fun.
That's so sad. 7 cats introduced into the world to take care of. What a burden.

Hopefully someone besides you can take care of them.
 

Nokoni

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That's so sad. 7 cats introduced into the world to take care of. What a burden.

Hopefully someone besides you can take care of them.
I didn't think it sad. It was more than 40 years ago but I still remember it with joy.
 

boris

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Both canned and kibble are probably best.

Some cats live long on commercial "food" products, but so do humans. All canned and kibble cat food I can buy at the petstore is absolutely terrible. 99% of them contain grains. Kibble does not "clean" a cats teeth, it cakes them up and causes dental problems. And the few "good" products without grains have other undiserable stuff in them (PUFA oils, chicken fat, cheap vitamins). Commercial cat food is the perfect way to create a recurring customer at the vet.

I used to make my own with the popular "B.A.R.F" raw recipes and they are equally horrible, way too much iron, no vitamin D recommended. My cats got lipofuscin spots on the temples, dull furr and runny eyes from it, often they would puke because the acidic taurine supplements would react with the eggshell, once a year they got a cold. I slowly dropped all the BARF supplements bit by bit. In the end I used just meat and eggshell, they never got sick again, but their fur was still dull and they would shed a lot. The eggshell then gave one of my cats eczema (maybe an allergy induced by adding vitamin D in MCT oil). I dropped it too.

I experimented a lot and now have the best results with about 60/40 raw beef + low fat milk, still figuring out the balance, I haven't checked the calcium to phosphorus ratio. Almost every day a little bit of liver mixed in some milk. Some pure dried beef heart or pig intestine or gouda cheese as a treat. Some sardines once a week. They are never sick and their fur is silky smooth like that of a kitten. I only plan to add some vitamin D in olive oil and maybe some gelatin.



So I'm wondering, do cats need carbohydrates and what type would be best for them? I know they officially don't, or at least not much, but I recall Ray once saying that some cats are in fact fond of sweets.

Wasn't he referring to dogs? I thought cats can't really taste sweet things. Anyways, lactose is the perfect carb for cats :).
 
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blob69

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Thanks everyone for your helpful comments! Like Boris I'm not that fond of commercial pet foods, I think one can prepare better, more nutritious foods themselves, but it takes knowledge and time of course. Francis Pottenger managed to keep cats in good health for many generations with organs, bones, muscle meat and milk, all raw of course. I did another search and managed to find an interesting comment Ray Peat once made about cat food:

"They can handle some carbohydrate, but most of the diet should be meat, fish, eggs, liver, skin, cartilage, and ground bone or cheese or milk for extra calcium. There are some very interesting videos on youtube of cats enjoying candies, ice cream, melons, etc., that I think disprove the idea that cats can't taste sugar."
 

blob69

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Ray said this about cats needing to avoid milk: "Everyone seems to have their idea of who is lactose intolerant. Cats obviously adapt very well to milk, the way people do."

I know quite a few cats who drank milk without digestive issues and lived fairly long and healthy lives.
 

blob69

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That's so sad. 7 cats introduced into the world to take care of. What a burden.

Hopefully someone besides you can take care of them.
Why are cats a burden if someone lovingly takes care of them? I find the modern attitude of having to sterilize all cats immediately just one of the symptoms of a profoundly sick society. I think the main problem with animal shelters is that their rules for adoption are so twisted that many people don't want to adopt cats from there. For example, in my country and probably most other Western countries the cats adopted there need to be always kept indoors, they are treated with toxic drugs and vaccines, people need to go through insane bureaucracy to adopt etc. A friend's cat gave birth to two litters of 4 cats recently and people literally jumped at the opportunity to adopt them, they didn't even have to place an ad, and these cats were nothing special (I'd say even a bit ugly). In my town there used to be some cats roaming, but now there are none in most places. There are many articles talking about "myth of pet overpopulation". You can also find good articles about the harms of sterilization/castration on health - it's by far not as innocuous as they would have us believe.

And most importantly, if there is a species that is dangerously overbreeding, it's us humans, but I don't see people rushing for mass sterilization. It would be best to quickly sterilize all Africans, Albanians... too according to this logic, right?
 

blob69

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One more thing - the stray cat that brought kittens to our house also decided to stay with us. However, she is unsocialized and fearful (she obviously didn't grow up in a nurturing environment) and even after many months of staying around our house and getting food she still often hisses and spits at us and fears to approach too close. Touching her is out of the question, except that strangely she will come to my feet sometimes and rub against them like cats do. Since living with such an animal can be a nuisance, I'm wondering, how could we possibly improve her behavior and tame her? Are there any tactics that we could use with her? Would giving her progesterone or thyroid help?
 

mayku-T-meelo

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I think Ray mentioned that a cat once accidentally ate some thyroid and they found it laying, smiling and happy.
 

Nokoni

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Are there any tactics that we could use with her
I would advocate unconditional love and zero expectations. This has worked well for me with two different cats. My current furry little angel had a rough start and was returned twice to the shelter before I got her. She's a tough customer but I'm glad we chose her because we can give her a nice life. For me the pleasure is in nurturing. Any reciprocal affection is just gravy. Zero stress is my goal for her. If she wants to hide and hiss and tear up the couch then that's fine. (A little gentle correction on the couch item, mostly to mollify the wife.) Whatever she wants to eat. It's unlikely she will ever become a lap cat but she has settled down nicely. She now follows me from room to room, and when she eventually started hopping up on my desk it was very satisfying. (And yes, the adoption process has gotten completely nutty.)
 

Nokoni

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I think Ray mentioned that a cat once accidentally ate some thyroid and they found it laying, smiling and happy.
In my experience cats really like the taste of thyroid. As a result I always try to be careful handling it but somebody slipped up (probably me), and one of my cats apparently ate a small piece. He ended up having a very agitated and unpleasant day. Kept after me all day to do something for him, which I was not able to do. Maybe Mexican or Oregonian cats are different, but I'd be careful.
 

SOMO

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Why are cats a burden if someone lovingly takes care of them? I find the modern attitude of having to sterilize all cats immediately just one of the symptoms of a profoundly sick society. I think the main problem with animal shelters is that their rules for adoption are so twisted that many people don't want to adopt cats from there. For example, in my country and probably most other Western countries the cats adopted there need to be always kept indoors, they are treated with toxic drugs and vaccines, people need to go through insane bureaucracy to adopt etc. A friend's cat gave birth to two litters of 4 cats recently and people literally jumped at the opportunity to adopt them, they didn't even have to place an ad, and these cats were nothing special (I'd say even a bit ugly). In my town there used to be some cats roaming, but now there are none in most places. There are many articles talking about "myth of pet overpopulation". You can also find good articles about the harms of sterilization/castration on health - it's by far not as innocuous as they would have us believe.

And most importantly, if there is a species that is dangerously overbreeding, it's us humans, but I don't see people rushing for mass sterilization. It would be best to quickly sterilize all Africans, Albanians... too according to this logic, right?
I'm not for spaying or neutering (my dog is almost 2 years and still has his testicles) ,but I think it's impossible to deny the problem with cat overpopulation. Everywhere you go in NY or NJ, you'll run into stray cats. It's sad, because I don't think they're leading very good lives hiding in bushes until someone throws some food scraps out. Cats also carry toxoplasmosis commonly and it creates a health hazard to take them home, nurse them and then re-home them.

Nowhere in my logic did I mention or say anything that would lead you to believe we should sterilize humans. I'm not sure why you're bringing up sterilization Africans. Africa is a huge continent, with many resources and they just need infrastructure. I also don't believe for a second that humans are overpopulating and we shouldn't compare cats to humans. There's plenty of space on planet earth, but humans and cats work a little different, wouldn't you say?. Only major cities can be considered overpopulated by humans, but that's because of a lack of housing, so everyone is crammed into skyscrapers and apartments.

If you can truly take care of 7 cats, I commend you. However just 1 of those cats can create another litter if they run into a stray cat, and now someone else needs to take care of another 7 cats. And unless you want to take care of 14 cats (not uncommon among cat people due to toxoplasmosis brain disease) then some of those cats will die on the street, but first they'll probably reproduce with another stray. Or worse yet, the litter will reach sexual maturity and start breeding with its siblings creating retard-kittens.

It's so tragic when you think about it. Our society really needs to get the stray cat situation under control. Also the sad truth is many people don't want a shelter cat because they're seen as "dirty" - but many will accept the litter of a shelter cat.

People who foster stray dogs are doing a public good/community service, but there's very few stray dogs in the civilized world. But no amount of fostering of stray cats is going to put a dent in the amount of stray cats on the streets.
 
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blob69

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I also don't believe for a second that humans are overpopulating and we shouldn't compare cats to humans. There's plenty of space on planet earth. Only major cities can be considered overpopulated, but that's because of a lack of housing, so everyone is crammed into skyscrapers and apartments.
Thanks for your comment. I don't have much time to answer now, but I can actually agree that overpopulation is a red herring (consumption/way of life is a problem, of course). But the logic with cats is similar - I think stray cats in a somewhat normal environment can take care of themselves to a large degree (or find an owner) and become a problem mostly in big cities. Where strays live with people and are unable to catch their own prey they are fed garbage and suffer. But people also eat garbage and suffer, just like the cats, it's equivalent. So using the same logic you could also make the argument that it would be good to sterilize people because there's too many and they suffer.

Perhaps there are so many strays in NY and NJ because people are increasingly unable to take care of their pets and abandon them?
 

blob69

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I would advocate unconditional love and zero expectations. This has worked well for me with two different cats. My current furry little angel had a rough start and was returned twice to the shelter before I got her. She's a tough customer but I'm glad we chose her because we can give her a nice life. For me the pleasure is in nurturing. Any reciprocal affection is just gravy. Zero stress is my goal for her. If she wants to hide and hiss and tear up the couch then that's fine. (A little gentle correction on the couch item, mostly to mollify the wife.) Whatever she wants to eat. It's unlikely she will ever become a lap cat but she has settled down nicely. She now follows me from room to room, and when she eventually started hopping up on my desk it was very satisfying. (And yes, the adoption process has gotten completely nutty.)
Glad to hear from a fellow cat lover. I agree with you about the nurturing and that is why I started to feed this cat that wasn't friendly at all towards me in the beginning. But she is changing I think; the last days she was friendlier than ever, with rubbing around the legs increasing quite a bit. I also feel good that she now has a home with her kitties, while previously life must have been hard for her. We have a big garden and lots of space for them to play and explore. The kittens are much less fearful than she is, so we can pet them a bit.

It makes me very happy if I can nurture an animal. I think we have way too few animals in our lives now. If I lived in an ideal world, I'd not only have many cats, but also dogs, chickens, rabbits, sheep, a pond etc. Well, perhaps it happens some day, but for now I'm happy to tend to the feline missies!

In my experience cats really like the taste of thyroid. As a result I always try to be careful handling it but somebody slipped up (probably me), and one of my cats apparently ate a small piece. He ended up having a very agitated and unpleasant day. Kept after me all day to do something for him, which I was not able to do. Maybe Mexican or Oregonian cats are different, but I'd be careful.
I asked Ray about this cat and he recommended milk and vitamin D, maybe a little progesterone and pregnenolone and and an extremely small amount of cyproheptadine. And petting the kittens so she sees there is no danger. He didn't mention thyroid. I will first try the petting, milk and perhaps vitamin D... she's getting better so hopefully no more intrusive measures will be needed.

Anyway, thanks for your advice and good luck to your fury angel - may she continue bringing enjoyment to you!
 

Nokoni

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fellow cat lover
Yeah I'm so far gone that it's incomprehensible to me that everyone doesn't love cats. Oscar Wilde once had a cat lie down on the sleeve of a robe he was wearing and when he had to get up he cut off the sleeve rather than disturb the cat. Now that seems a bit extreme but I completely understand it. And I feel the same way about dogs and babies. They are all parasites and evolution plays a trick on us to induce us to love our children. But even understanding that it's a trick does not diminish the joy. Nature made it extremely rewarding to nurture. Should I forego the pleasure just because I'm being tricked? Nah. I'll enjoy the pleasure and gladly pay the price.
recommended milk and vitamin D, maybe a little progesterone and pregnenolone and and an extremely small amount of cyproheptadine
Thanks for this. Might try it on my baby too. Glad you're already getting good results.
 

boris

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Oscar Wilde once had a cat lie down on the sleeve of a robe he was wearing and when he had to get up he cut off the sleeve rather than disturb the cat. Now that seems a bit extreme but I completely understand it.

Actually that was the prophet Mohammed. He respected cats so much because a cat once saved his life. A poisonous snake was sneaking up behind him while he was praying and a cat killed it. That‘s why cats are allowed in mosques and why islamic countries like turkey take good care of street cats, lots of people go out everyday and feed them.

There is a nice movie „Kedi“ about how people live together with street cats in Istanbul. This is a little excerpt:

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IwrBfcv0EhE

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lKq7UqplcL8
 
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Nokoni

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Well, I heard it of OW. Possible that he knew the story of Mohammed and the cat and claimed it as his own. Kind of thing OW would do, of course.
 

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