Low Protein / High Carb Diet - Healthier Than Caloric Restriction

Waremu

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Such_Saturation said:
The point of Ray Peat is restricting certain amino acids is what's behind caloric restriction. Which is probably what happened here. You don't really see Ray Peat eating eighty grams of just any protein.


That's a good point. If Ray consumes around 80 - 100 grams of protein, then we can safely assume that a fairly LARGE chunk of that is from gelatin so it wouldn't be the same as consuming that amount from meat or whatever.

From reading his stuff and talking with him especially, I think even though Ray believes milk to be one of the best protein sources (because of the low cystein content and how inefficient it appears the tyrpophan in it is metabolized, due to the casein and calcium in it), I think he still recognizes the methionine content and that is also one reason why he plays it safe to get plenty of gelatin to offset the methionine from the milk.
 

Waremu

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On a side note, Ray Peat has said that a low PUFA intake could produce many of the benefits seen with CR studies, but he has also been fairly vocal about how restricting the main three problematic amino acids (cysteine, methionine, and tyrpophan) can also produce many of the benefits seen in many of the CR studies also. I'll need to pull up some of his qoutes on that. He has a few from his articles on it too. So I think he thinks it's mainly those two things: keeping PUFA low and the problematic amino acids low and balancing them with gelatin, etc.
 
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Yes I think Ray Peat said that's because milk is made for a growing organism who would need the tryptophan.
 

Dean

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I don't recall Peat saying milk had to be balanced with gelatin. Pretty sure he's said calcium mitigates the tryptophan...or inhibits its conversion to serotonin or something like that. I also have never gotten the impression that Peat himself gets the bulk of his protein from gelatin. I've heard him say he uses the GL porcine gelatin and that an adult could get the bulk of their protein from gelatin; but I think it would be a stretch to surmise that Peat is implying one would be better off getting their protein from processed gelatin powder instead of milk, and thus need ground-up eggshells for their calcium. I mean, I can understand why someone would choose themselves or have to go in that direction, but only as a reasonable deviation or accommodation, not the norm/ideal.
 

tara

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haidut said:
Overall, Peat seems to give various guidelines in terms of macros. I have also heard him say that "about equal" distribution of calories is probably optimal. However, that would mean 33% protein, which means 150g+ of protein. He says several times that protein crab ratio should be at least 1:2. He also says 80g-100g of protein is optimal.
His 80-100g protein recommendation is for people in hypothyroid states, not healthy euthyroid, right? He's also talked about more protein being better for healthy folks, and has mentioned numbers like 150g protein, and 20% protein in an average 3000 cal diet, and said he generally feels better if he eats at least 150g protein himself, I think. And he's also said that he doesn't know what the ideal ratio is and suspects it varies from person to person.
Am I reading you right, that you've seen him say at least half as much protein as carbs? I haven't seen that one.
 

Dean

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Waremu said:
Keep in mind that Ray Peat did somewhat change his position on macronutrient ratios from his previous position a number of years ago. Years ago, Ray Peat said he ate a higher fat (saturated over PUFA, of course) diet until a number of years ago, when he realized that his PUFA consumption should ideally be lower and also because even many animal foods that are high in saturated fat can still add a decent amount of PUFA if consumed in large amounts.

Ever since he changed his position, Ray Peat has really been advocating a relitively low fat, moderate protein (80g-100g is moderate by today's standards, whereas 1g per pound is higher), high carb diet. Of course, Ray Peat didn't specifically tell people what ratios to consume, but when his latest work is compiled and what he does himself and says is ideal is all put together, we can really see that Ray Peat advocates a low fat, high carb, moderate protein diet. He says many people can get away with a higher amount of protein of they are athletic (like 1 gram per pound), but if one factors in the typical caloric increase (because of being an athlete and for recovery) that goes along with that larger protein increase then it would still balance to be a moderate and not high protein intake.

Waremu, You may be right about your characterization of a Peat evolution of sorts. It could be, however, that as more people discovered his way of eating many struggled with weight gain. Not to mention the fact that many people come into it with a need/desire to lose weight to begin with. So, it could be a concession to that reality. Whether that negates what he's said about an equal macro ratio being ideal, I really could not say.

What would you call high or moderate protein amounts? Would you measure it in terms of total protein grams consumed or percentage of calories that come from protein?
 

pboy

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haidut said:
Overall, Peat seems to give various guidelines in terms of macros. I have also heard him say that "about equal" distribution of calories is probably optimal. However, that would mean 33% protein, which means 150g+ of protein. He says several times that protein crab ratio should be at least 1:2.

beware of the protein crab
 

tara

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1. sprinter - "I would love to hear everything Ray Peat consumes for one week. Including all food and supplements. 10 days would be even better."

Ray Peat - The details vary slightly according to what's available. Daily, milk, fruit (mainly orange juice), eggs, butter, cheese, and coffee. As available, liver, shrimp, squid, oysters, cod, sole, ox-tail soup, chicharrones (puffed pork rind), sapotas, pawpaws, cherimoyas, guanabanas, guavas, carrots, bamboo shoots, small turnips, corundas.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4565&start=45#p55765

I don't see gelatin featuring as the major protein here - some from chiccarones, and oxtail soup, but not daily large amounts of powdered gelatin.
Looks like steak isn't on his regular list, but cod and sole would both be mainly muscle meats, right?
Butter daily.
I have seen Peat say he's going for more sugar and less fat lately to lower PUFA, but where has he said he's halved his protein intake to only 80ish grams?
 
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tara said:
haidut said:
Overall, Peat seems to give various guidelines in terms of macros. I have also heard him say that "about equal" distribution of calories is probably optimal. However, that would mean 33% protein, which means 150g+ of protein. He says several times that protein crab ratio should be at least 1:2. He also says 80g-100g of protein is optimal.
His 80-100g protein recommendation is for people in hypothyroid states, not healthy euthyroid, right? He's also talked about more protein being better for healthy folks, and has mentioned numbers like 150g protein, and 20% protein in an average 3000 cal diet, and said he generally feels better if he eats at least 150g protein himself, I think. And he's also said that he doesn't know what the ideal ratio is and suspects it varies from person to person.
Am I reading you right, that you've seen him say at least half as much protein as carbs? I haven't seen that one.

Yes, he said that for hypothyroid people the carbs should be at least twice the protein or maybe even higher since in hypothyroid people protein will tend to cause stress response due to poor glycogen stores. He did not say how high in the ratio one can go but did say that at least twice as many carbs as protein for hypothyroid folks. Then in another interview he said that optimal ratio is not known and then he added "probably equal amounts of each" [macronutrient]. The interview is transcribed and posted on the forum but I can't find it. Here is another thread where this issue is mentioned.
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=6370&p=76445&hilit=fat+protein+ratio+known+probably#p76445
It seems Peat is suggesting that the ratio might vary from person to person, hence the increased ratio in hypothyroid people.
 

tara

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haidut said:
Yes, he said that for hypothyroid people the carbs should be at least twice the protein or maybe even higher since in hypothyroid people protein will tend to cause stress response due to poor glycogen stores.
OK, that's more like what I thought - more carbs, not more protein than 1P:2C. Ta.
 

RPDiciple

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RP told me that 150g protein was enough an im a super active athlete that lift weights etc.
He also said 120 could be enough if you provide enoug minerals. Minerals is very important for protein utilization and so is ofc carbs
 

narouz

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pboy said:
haidut said:
Overall, Peat seems to give various guidelines in terms of macros. I have also heard him say that "about equal" distribution of calories is probably optimal. However, that would mean 33% protein, which means 150g+ of protein. He says several times that protein crab ratio should be at least 1:2.

beware of the protein crab

In some ways,
more terrifying than the turkey beast...
 

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pboy

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LOL what a weird movie hahah. For some reason I often find movies like that to be more comedy than horror. I don't see how you cant!
 

narouz

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pboy said:
LOL what a weird movie hahah. For some reason I often find movies like that to be more comedy than horror. I don't see how you cant!

When I saw it when it first came out...it was scary. :D
 

jyb

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I am also unsure in general about higher carbs being good for mice. If you want a study with only one variable change (with a reasonable amount of change - not like a massive 10 times factor like in this thread's study), here is one where the only difference is more glucose - and it finds that the mice are more prone to Alzheimers. It is one out of a few in the Alzheimer's article series of Peter's Hyperlipid blog. http://www.fasebj.org/content/early/200 ... 82fje.long
 
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Man I better put down my Sigma Aldrich ≥99.5% Dextro-Glucose smoothie :eek:
 

narouz

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Since we're throwing the word "carb" around kinda loosely...

From the KMUD interview of February 15th.
KMUD: Weight Gain, Foamy Urine, Fats, Light Therapy, Dreams, -- 2-15-2013

The questioner is the KMUD co-host, Sarah Murray.
Go to the 48 minute mark of the interview:

SM: "I guess what you're saying is 400 calories from orange juice
is not comparative to 400 calories from potatoes or rice."

Ray Peat: "...uh, definitely not. It [the orange juice] stimulates your metabolism and suppresses
the stress hormones."

SM: "Whereas 400 calories from baked potato and rice would increase your stress hormones
and suppress your metabolism?"

RP: "Yeah. And then there's the matter of the starch particles, that if you don't have some saturated fat
with them some of the starch particles can set up a whole pattern of stress and injury by entering
the blood stream."
 

jyb

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Such_Saturation said:
Man I better put down my Sigma Aldrich ≥99.5% Dextro-Glucose smoothie :eek:

That's wise. But if you don't like that or corn derivatives for carbs, you can ignore all mice and rat studies ever published, whether those I cited or those on Ray's website.
 
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jyb said:
Such_Saturation said:
Man I better put down my Sigma Aldrich ≥99.5% Dextro-Glucose smoothie :eek:

That's wise. But if you don't like that or corn derivatives for carbs, you can ignore all mice and rat studies ever published, whether those I cited or those on Ray's website.

Then perhaps I should also flush this basmati rice smoothie :cool: how's that
 

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