Surrogates For Thyroid Hormone

[lindsay]

Am I the only hypothyroid person I know who feels no jitters from coffee or caffeine? Like none whatever? It actually calms me and makes me want a nap :) That being said, I am going to try this aspirin, coffee, niacinamide combo.

 

[Ideonaut]

Yeah, I agree. All I am saying is that I think people need to be more careful when experimenting with thyroid so they don't end up more hypothyroid than when they started. I see several people complaining of this happening to them and it took them months to recover.

I've been thinking I'd like to try the temperature raising protocol at fixlowbodytemp.com but am afraid of using the thyroid recommended because of haidut's statements about it dangers. I wonder if any of these "thyroid surrogates" would be likely to work for the purpose.

 

[FredSonoma]

Yeah, I agree. All I am saying is that I think people need to be more careful when experimenting with thyroid so they don't end up more hypothyroid than when they started. I see several people complaining of this happening to them and it took them months to recover.

I am somewhat worried that I could be on the brink of experiencing this now. What are things to look out for - anything in blood results that would indicate I shouldn't be taking thyroid?

 

[haidut]

I am somewhat worried that I could be on the brink of experiencing this now. What are things to look out for - anything in blood results that would indicate I shouldn't be taking thyroid?

If the rT3 is high it usually means that you are getting too much T4 from supplements and liver has a hard time converting all of it to T3.

 

[FredSonoma]

If the rT3 is high it usually means that you are getting too much T4 from supplements and liver has a hard time converting all of it to T3.

Okay I will try to get a blood test for that thanks! I definitely have liver problems, and feel somewhat better after I stop taking thyroid, but 3 days later I start to feel terrible (I'm guessing from the half-life of T3 wearing off). I'm not sure if I should try to get off now or if there is anything I can do about it now to be able to stay on it.

 

[mirc12354]

I posted some studies where several diseases responded to 600mg oral B1. Also, I posted another study with humans that found 1500mg of B1 maintained high enough plasma concentrations for 4-5 hours to be useful for Alzheimer treatment. A study on Alzheimer used 7g-8g a day, but I'd say this is an overkill for people without AD. Yet another study found that 1500mg+ lowers lactate significantly to be of use for professional athletes in football/rugby.
I personally take 1500mg when needed (in one sitting) and also take the same dosage about 1 hour before drinking. Thiamine (B1) makes you metabolize alcohol about 2x-3x faster, so no hangover the next morning even with serious partying! I am not advocating getting wasted though, especially considering the estrogenic effects of alcohol.

Anyone else tried that? Does it really work?

 

[haidut]

Anyone else tried that? Does it really work?

Ask any doctor for confirmation. When an intoxicated person comes to the hospital they get a "banana bag" as IV solution. It has all the B vitamins, especially B1, and sobers them up pretty quickly. That is one of the reasons it is given in ER settings. It is not just my theory.

 

[Cheesecake]

No, it won't. Having high DHT will suppress LH/FSH b/c the body thinks you have more than enough androgens. DHT also blocks estrogen production and signaling. High T3 will similarly suppress TSH b/c the body thinks you have more than enough T3. T3 will also suppress conversion of T4 into rT3 and will direct it instead to converting into even more T3. Similarly, DHT will suppress the conversion of DHEA into estrogens and will direct it instead to converting into even more T/DHT ( up to a point).

Haidut, regarding DHT, do you see there being benefit to (for example) post-menopausal women carrying excess weight around the middle (mainly since menopause) who exhibit typical estrogen excess and high cortisol symptoms? Who haven't seen any significant benefit from progesterone therapy? And need some more powerful weapons against all their unopposed estrogen? And if so, can you recommend a source of it? (Or will you be releasing your own product containing it soon?!). Thanks!

 

[jyb]

Ask any doctor for confirmation. When an intoxicated person comes to the hospital they get a "banana bag" as IV solution. It has all the B vitamins, especially B1, and sobers them up pretty quickly. That is one of the reasons it is given in ER settings. It is not just my theory.

There's not that much B1 in banana bags, cf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2146916/pdf/canfamphys00081-0092.pdf

PS. If it de-sobers you quickly, why not take after partying not before? Would save on drink costs...

 

[Cheesecake]

... to my above query I forgot to tag you @haidut ... thanks!

 

[haidut]

There's not that much B1 in banana bags, cf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2146916/pdf/canfamphys00081-0092.pdf

PS. If it de-sobers you quickly, why not take after partying not before? Would save on drink costs...

As you can see from your link it is 100mg IV thiamine, and that is a LOT. Ray has said taking even 50mg orally should be enough for mental benefits. To get the same effects as a banana bag thiamine from a single dose oral thiamine you would need 1,000mg - 1,500mg.
You can take before, during and after alcohol drinking. Taken before it should limit damage to liver. Taken after it should help speed up alcohol metabolism especially when combined with sugar.

 

[haidut]

... to my above query I forgot to tag you @haidut ... thanks!

I think women can benefit from DHT but they should probably start with lower doses similar to the progesterone protocol for men. I am working on another androgen supplement but in the meantime if they can find DHT I think 2mg daily would be a good start. DHT does lower both cortisol and prolactin but before doing any steroids I would check cortisol, prolactin, estrone, and DHEA-S.

 

[Cheesecake]

I think women can benefit from DHT but they should probably start with lower doses similar to the progesterone protocol for men. I am working on another androgen supplement but in the meantime if they can find DHT I think 2mg daily would be a good start. DHT does lower both cortisol and prolactin but before doing any steroids I would check cortisol, prolactin, estrone, and DHEA-S.

Ok great to know. So maybe a better/safer first plan of attack for estrogen-saturated, overweight, stressed post-menopausal women might be just more Progesterone and/or Pregnenolone? (In regards to supplements) @haidut

 

[FiveAsh]

Can anyone tell me the equivalent dosage between thiamine hcl and thiamine pyrophosphate. Eg 100mg thiamine pyrohosphate = how much thiamin hydrochloride??? (or vice versa) Or is it the same... I have no idea...

Thanks

 

[haidut]

Ok great to know. So maybe a better/safer first plan of attack for estrogen-saturated, overweight, stressed post-menopausal women might be just more Progesterone and/or Pregnenolone? (In regards to supplements) @haidut

If there is proven deficiency in androgens then only something like DHEA or DHT would fix that. But yes, more progesterone and pregnenolone should at least not hurt.

 

[Cheesecake]

If there is proven deficiency in androgens then only something like DHEA or DHT would fix that. But yes, more progesterone and pregnenolone should at least not hurt.

Thank you!

 

[JDD]

I've been taking NDT for a few months, but now that my temps are up I feel I don't necessarily need it. Would it make sense to taper down and eventually stop taking it, or switch to a supplement with better t4:t3 ratio so I'm not overloading myself with t4?

Side note: I've been taking large dose b7 twice a day and feel like this has also lowered my need for thyroid hormone.

 

[Jsaute21]

@haidut do you view a serving of energin as adequate enough for niacinamide or recommend also grabbing an isolated niacinamide supplement?

 

[haidut]

@haidut do you view a serving of energin as adequate enough for niacinamide or recommend also grabbing an isolated niacinamide supplement?

For most people it probably is enough. Some people with autoimmune conditions use a lot more (a few grams daily) but those are few cases. For metabolic support it is probably enough. There is a Russian drug developed in the 1960s called Cytoflavin, and was basically a vitamin mixture found effective for skin burn or even cancer patients. It has 25mg B3 per dose and was given up to 4 times daily for a total of 100mg niacinamide.
CYTOFLAVIN®, (aka Citoflavin) 50pills/pack

 

[Jsaute21]

@haidut thanks.

How long does it generally take (I know each case is different and unique in its own right) to overcome a relative caffeine intolerance? I do well on caffeine pills, but occasionally coffee can bring on a stress response and lower pulse and bring on hypoglycemia.

I am someone, like others, who is relatively unsure if stress (professional & relationship) brought on metabolism problems, or if metabolism problems made my stress feel much more significant than it truly is/was. I lean towards the latter, but the chicken or the egg debate is always interesting with the body and the brain.