Starch - The Delicious Devil

[Nicole W.]

Why cant ppl discern the differences between WHICH grains in these assessments? Modern genetically modified and modern ag practices are NOTHING like the grains which fortified ancestral humans, and in fact dominate the record in the rise of cultural and civilization progressions. If a study is performed on mice (or humans ) using only degraded substances, what else would you expect from the results? I cant believe we are still chewing on this as a topic when grain history is so obvious.

Completely agree here. Nearly every culture in the world, for thousands of years, has eaten starch and it was never a “problem” until about 50 years ago. Maybe we need to acknowledge that it’s not the starch alone but something else like fortification, industrial yeast, other food junk like gums or added PUFA.

 

[famalalam]

Funny I thought the most interesting part of my post was how grains effect the brain. I didn't imagine so many would be arguing with Ray Peat so hard, that they are good. Very interesting.

Personally, I feel just fine eating starch. No symptoms of alzheimers at all.

For anyone reading this, if you don't experience any discomfort eating starch, keep eating starch. Don't give yourself an eating disorder because someone else experiences discomfort.
Ray Peat is allowed to be argued against. If your experience tells you different from what he writes, trust yourself.

 

[Highserotonin90]

I love grains and potatoes, more than fruit, dairy and proteins, but I definetly get tubby pretty quick when I indulge too often. Haidut has a new thread which he posted this study.

Link of this study ? Thanks

I love grains and potatoes, more than fruit, dairy and proteins, but I definetly get tubby pretty quick when I indulge too often. Haidut has a new thread which he posted this study.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Link of this study ? Thanks

Replacing starch with sucrose increases metabolism, prevent obesity

A study that will certainly generate controversy in the low-carb blogosphere, but the findings are hard to dispute. Namely, feeding a diet for 15 weeks, in which 74.3% of the calories come from carbs in the form of starch was clearly obesogenic, caused insulin resistance and elevated blood...

raypeatforum.com

Completely agree here. Nearly every culture in the world, for thousands of years, has eaten starch and it was never a “problem” until about 50 years ago. Maybe we need to acknowledge that it’s not the starch alone but something else like fortification, industrial yeast, other food junk like gums or added PUFA.

I think it's important to take into account that humans aren't what they used to be back in the day. All the bad environments that we and our ancestors, especifically since the past 100 years or so, have lived through have very much affected our health. What we( as in humans) could tolerate perfectly back in the day now can even make us sick. Gut problems make it harder to tolerate starch, and most people in the USA are constipated. SIBO is much more common too, as well as low metabolism. These things affect our reactions to starch. People have problems even with dairy and eggs now, likely due to being massively vaccinated during their youth, so it's not an issue restricted to just starch, but to also other foods which people have consumed for ages with no problems.

I don't see any problem with consuming starch( as long as it's cooked), but a lot of people have problems with it, due to gut issues. If you don't suffer any side- effects from starch, then I don't see any reason to not eat foods that contain it, especially the very nutritious ones, like tubers.

About the reason why some people benefit more from starch than from sugar, I wonder if it has to do with free fatty acids in the blood( NEFA= non-esterified fatty acids). Sugar lowers them more than starch, and when those go down, you rely more on carb oxidation. This would explain the hypoglycemia people experience on no starch, high sugar diets, especially when not eating much fat. I'm sure there are other factors too.

 

[Ritchie]

I already gave you my evidence. In my father his Alzheimers is triggered by grains. Ray himself has talked about grains leaching into the bloodstream through the intestines, and he wasn't talking about raw starch.

"Starch-grain embolisms can cause brain damage, but major money can also make people say stupid things ."-Ray Peat

"In an old experiment, a rat was tube-fed ten grams of corn-starch paste, and then anesthetized. Ten minutes after the massive tube feeding, the professor told the students to find how far the starch had moved along the alimentary canal. No trace of the white paste could be found, demonstrating the speed with which starch can be digested and absorbed. The very rapid rise of blood sugar stimulates massive release of insulin, and rapidly converts much of the carbohydrate into fat."-Ray Peat

Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

There could be many explanations for the triggering of your fathers alzheimers, gluten intolerance is one possibility, another is that you are seeing a pattern from grains but it could be something else entirely, this happens all the time. Which is why anecdotal evidence isn't really great in furthering understanding.

By evidence I am referring to controlled scientific studies on humans eating cooked starch, that shows persorbtion. There are none as far as i'm aware, and this forum is all about evidence based perspectives. Starch-grain embolisms? Where is the evidence in humans eating cooked starch? Post it if you have seen any... And as far as starch raising blood sugar rapidly stimulating insulin, yes this can happen and has been shown to happen IF starch is consumed on its own. The reality is that we never do this, when was the last time you ate a bowl of plain pasta on its own? Or plain rice without any other foods? even with cereal or oats people usually add honey, fruits, milk, etc. Anyway I think you get the point, and Ray reiterates this, that eating cooked starch with fats and proteins or sugars, completely alleviates this concern of rapid blood sugar rise.

Finally I think you may be a little mistaken in thinking that this forum is about entirely agreeing with Peat on everything. It's more about discussing his ideas.. and Peat, like others, is fallible and gets some things wrong. Case in point. He refers to flawed scientific data conducted decades ago, done with raw starch particles inserted into mice, to extrapolate the issues with humans eating cooked whole food starch such as potatoes, rice, corn, etc. The case for that just isn't there and for him to make that claim more evidence is needed. The lack there of is very telling, considering how much starch research has been done and how long humans have been eating it for. (note: issues with gluten intolerance and/or allergies are an entirely different story, there is much research and evidence around this).
Also as a final note, Peat regularly recommends starchy foods like potatoes, or corn tortillas, so his commitment to this non starch position is questionable. His commitment to non PUFA is far more convicted.

 

[Ritchie]

I see your point, especially about the studies using raw starch. However, Dr McDougal in his speeches always talks about how they found starch granules in the fossils of ancient warriors. He has some slides in some of his talks about it. I always thought that was strange that starts granules could last that long in someone's teeth or elsewhere in the body, until I heard Ray Peat talking about volkheimer.

I don't know about this, and I haven't seen the actual research, however I doubt they found actual starch granules... Perhaps it was more that they could determine that they had been eating starch as part of their diet from some other archaeological factors? I'm not sure though so I can't comment. Cooked starchy foods are certainly a rich and condensed source of energy (nutrition) so I wouldn't doubt they were eating it.

 

[Ritchie]

Why cant ppl discern the differences between WHICH grains in these assessments? Modern genetically modified and modern ag practices are NOTHING like the grains which fortified ancestral humans, and in fact dominate the record in the rise of cultural and civilization progressions. If a study is performed on mice (or humans ) using only degraded substances, what else would you expect from the results? I cant believe we are still chewing on this as a topic when grain history is so obvious

Personally, I feel just fine eating starch. No symptoms of alzheimers at all.

For anyone reading this, if you don't experience any discomfort eating starch, keep eating starch. Don't give yourself an eating disorder because someone else experiences discomfort.
Ray Peat is allowed to be argued against. If your experience tells you different from what he writes, trust yourself.

100.

 

[rei]

"Volkheimer found that mice fed raw starch aged at an abnormally fast rate

Has this ever been shown to happen with (well) cooked starch? I have not seen any study, so maybe it is a non-issue? There are plenty of other issues with starchy foods, only potato seems reasonably safe with good digestion.

 

[S-VV]

"Safe starches are safe, but they will make you fat and dumb, and kill you with an embolism" - Raymond Peat

 

[SamYo123]

Good question SamYo123. I hear people on this forum swear that warm milk with sugar is much more warming that cold milk so maybe you are onto something there!

Well even warm/hot water will raise your temps even warm pufa..

 

[lexis]

"Volkheimer found that mice fed raw starch aged at an abnormally fast rate, and when he dissected the starch-fed mice, he found a multitude of starch-grain-blocked arterioles in every organ, each of which caused the death of the cells that depended on the blood supplied by that arteriole. It isn’t hard to see how this would affect the functions of organs such as the brain and heart, even without considering the immunological and other implications of the presence of foreign particles randomly distributed through the tissue."
Ray Peat

I see and hear the "starch vs sugar" debate all the time on this forum, but after reading this quote from Ray Peat, what argument is there? Grains are proven to be one of several causes of Alzheimers. I know is true in my own father's case. It is called "grain brain". My father is a normal healthy person until he eats grains. After he eats a meal, with wheat particularly, he goes into a trance, where he won't talk much for several days and can't remember much of anything.

There is another book I read a few years back written by top cardiologist, Dr. Davis, and is titled "Wheat Belly". It not only makes a convincing case for why everyone is fat, but he also states that it is the number one reason for heart disease. This prompted me to go Paleo right away. Our modern wheat, he calls "Frankenwheat", because it is altered to a destructive monsterous state. It affects the opioid part of the brain, the same as drugs, causing a vicious cycle of unhealthy and unstoppable cravings. He goes so far as to say that our modern wheat is unsuitable for human consumption. From a "Peaty' perspective it is a book worth reading and will make those sweet little cupcakes look like frosted covered demons.

What happened to mankind that we have come so far from valuing food for how it strengthens us, like liver and heart, to choosing foods that we know are going to make us slow, ill and fat? I am not excluding myself from the latter. I justify a good bowl of pasta, by saying it is made with a better wheat from Italy and "look at all the protein I am getting". I know better, but yet I make the weaker choice too. I summize we make less optimal choices because nothing is really expected from our bodies anymore. Tribal hunters NEED to be strong and WANT to prove they are SUPERIOR. They need to be FAST and sustain ENERGY. Their eating optimally meant getting the next meal. Nowaday a meal is there without much effort. We can AFFORD to make LESS optimal choices because we TAKE our health for granted and value INDULGENCES more, never thinking of the COST. Look at the key words in the two different ways of eating.

In my youth when I saw a lot of life ahead of me I chose the "Live To Eat" stance, now that my youth is many years behind me I have changed my mind and now want to "Eat To Live". I just don't see the fun in ruining my health anymore.

People who have a lot of anger and hate find starch very tasty. I know from a real example. A psychiatric patient who would eat three plates of rice. When he healed, no such addiction

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

People who have a lot of anger and hate find starch very tasty. I know from a real example. A psychiatric patient who would eat three plates of rice. When he healed, no such addiction

Did that patient have a liking for sweet things too?

 

[Nomane Euger]

.

 

[Nomane Euger]

Oh sh, thanks! I used to justify my starch consumption because of physically intense occupation. Now I'll just convince myself that my ancestory were ancient warriors and mashing potatoes is a warrior thing ?

In all seriousness there been a lot some interesting threads here in the past where people speculated that starch consumption (and all its supposed side effects) actually played a part in constant warfare.

the rare times i eat starches,even bananas,i start to have dreams with violence and warfare and i can sometimes feel pleasure to exert this violence

 

[boris]

Well even warm/hot water will raise your temps even warm pufa..

In my observation and experience, eating a hot bowl of legumes or a steaming burger with sesame seeds will noticeably slow your metabolism about 30 minutes after the meal. So much that you start freezing.

 

[Sitaruîm]

There could be many explanations for the triggering of your fathers alzheimers, gluten intolerance is one possibility, another is that you are seeing a pattern from grains but it could be something else entirely, this happens all the time. Which is why anecdotal evidence isn't really great in furthering understanding.

By evidence I am referring to controlled scientific studies on humans eating cooked starch, that shows persorbtion. There are none as far as i'm aware, and this forum is all about evidence based perspectives. Starch-grain embolisms? Where is the evidence in humans eating cooked starch? Post it if you have seen any... And as far as starch raising blood sugar rapidly stimulating insulin, yes this can happen and has been shown to happen IF starch is consumed on its own. The reality is that we never do this, when was the last time you ate a bowl of plain pasta on its own? Or plain rice without any other foods? even with cereal or oats people usually add honey, fruits, milk, etc. Anyway I think you get the point, and Ray reiterates this, that eating cooked starch with fats and proteins or sugars, completely alleviates this concern of rapid blood sugar rise.

Finally I think you may be a little mistaken in thinking that this forum is about entirely agreeing with Peat on everything. It's more about discussing his ideas.. and Peat, like others, is fallible and gets some things wrong. Case in point. He refers to flawed scientific data conducted decades ago, done with raw starch particles inserted into mice, to extrapolate the issues with humans eating cooked whole food starch such as potatoes, rice, corn, etc. The case for that just isn't there and for him to make that claim more evidence is needed. The lack there of is very telling, considering how much starch research has been done and how long humans have been eating it for. (note: issues with gluten intolerance and/or allergies are an entirely different story, there is much research and evidence around this).
Also as a final note, Peat regularly recommends starchy foods like potatoes, or corn tortillas, so his commitment to this non starch position is questionable. His commitment to non PUFA is far more convicted.

Also I'm pondering: is it bad at all to have a big insulin spike if one is insulin sensitive and can store a lot of glycogen in the liver and muscles? I think not, and my understanding is that there wouldn't be much conversion into fat for storage in this case

 

[lexis]

Did that patient have a liking for sweet things too?

A lot of soft drinks

 

[Nicole W.]

Replacing starch with sucrose increases metabolism, prevent obesity

A study that will certainly generate controversy in the low-carb blogosphere, but the findings are hard to dispute. Namely, feeding a diet for 15 weeks, in which 74.3% of the calories come from carbs in the form of starch was clearly obesogenic, caused insulin resistance and elevated blood...

raypeatforum.com

I think it's important to take into account that humans aren't what they used to be back in the day. All the bad environments that we and our ancestors, especifically since the past 100 years or so, have lived through have very much affected our health. What we( as in humans) could tolerate perfectly back in the day now can even make us sick. Gut problems make it harder to tolerate starch, and most people in the USA are constipated. SIBO is much more common too, as well as low metabolism. These things affect our reactions to starch. People have problems even with dairy and eggs now, likely due to being massively vaccinated during their youth, so it's not an issue restricted to just starch, but to also other foods which people have consumed for ages with no problems.

I don't see any problem with consuming starch( as long as it's cooked), but a lot of people have problems with it, due to gut issues. If you don't suffer any side- effects from starch, then I don't see any reason to not eat foods that contain it, especially the very nutritious ones, like tubers.

About the reason why some people benefit more from starch than from sugar, I wonder if it has to do with free fatty acids in the blood( NEFA= non-esterified fatty acids). Sugar lowers them more than starch, and when those go down, you rely more on carb oxidation. This would explain the hypoglycemia people experience on no starch, high sugar diets, especially when not eating much fat. I'm sure there are other factors too.

Good points. It’s never just one thing but the convergence of many factors that determine health and resilience. Or alternatively, disease states.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Personally, I feel just fine eating starch. No symptoms of alzheimers at all.

For anyone reading this, if you don't experience any discomfort eating starch, keep eating starch. Don't give yourself an eating disorder because someone else experiences discomfort.
Ray Peat is allowed to be argued against. If your experience tells you different from what he writes, trust yourself.

I don't even know how to respond to what you just said. Wheat doesn't give you Alzheimers. Because my father has had gut damage the inflaming wheat particles get through his intestinal lining, into his blood and collect in his brain. Read the book, I don't have all day to break it down for you anymore than that. Enjoy your grains :)

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Link of this study ? Thanks

Like my post said, the book is called Grain Brain. Any search engine will give you dozens of results.