Dietitians Are Taught to Promote a Certain Amount of Starch in the Diet

[Such_Saturation]

KMUD Radio, The Herb Doctors, 05/15/2015

It’s estimated that starch provides about seventy to eighty percent of the calories consumed by humans worldwide, so we can get into the description of starch in a moment Doctor Peat, but why is it, I mean I know that it’s cheap and easy to mass cultivate and now it’s patentable in the form of GMO corn and potato and rice especially so how do we make that connection?

I think that cheapness is the main factor for even dietitians are taught to promote a certain amount of starch in the diet and starting in the 1930s the U.S. government designed and taught dietitians to promote three levels of nutrition, one to simply prevent starvation emphasizing beans and cereals, another middle class more health-oriented diet and a rich persons' diet with plenty of animal protein, and that emphasis originally it was relatively meaningful, valuable to hungry people to know how to get by on a diet of just a few cents a day for beans and grains balancing things for minimal survival purposes, but for economic reasons the like the breakfast cereal industry subsidized nutrition journals and dietetics journals and taught dietitians to say that these things are healthful, that the foods that were originally promoted just to survive now they're called "health foods", whole cereals, legumes and so on.

So it's gone full circle

Yeah, so rich people now are indoctrinated so that they're eating whole-grain bread and so on

Getting on to starch, something that really caught my attention when you first talked about it, it was the middle of last year some time, but you mentioned some pioneering work done by

Gerhard Volkheimer [1][2][3]

and starches, would you describe that?

Yeah, he was, he rediscovered work that had been done seventy or eighty years earlier [2] and called persorption of particles, and it refers to the fact that even though ordinary digestion theory says that even proteins are broken down in the intestine and absorbed as small molecules particles, amino acids, he and his predecessors showed that if you feed starch consisting of the naturally formed starch grains which can range from half the diameter of the red blood cell to ten times the diameter of the red blood cell, in other words much too big to even pass through the smallest arterioles, definitely a lot of them will plug up capillaries many of them will block arterioles, he demonstrated both with people and with mice that feeding starch, like a cup of a slurry, corn starch for example, and then drawing blood fifteen minutes later he could find the type of starch particle that they'd drunk in the bloodstream, and then fifteen minutes later he'd start finding it in the other body compartments, it would show up in the urine passing through the kidney barrier and ultimately he found it in the cerebrospinal fluid and every compartment in the body he would find these starch grains plugging arteries, in experimental animals he would slice them up at different stages, having been fed starch chronically, and he found that it caused mice to age prematurely and when he sliced them up, he found that every place where these starch grains lodged in an arteriole or capillary, the surrounding cells would be starved of nutrients and would die, so these animals it was like being having a shotgun working internally, killing little pockets of cells. And he was an immunologist, that was what got him interested in thinking about how your food can affect the immune system, if it's broken down into small particles before it gets in the body the immune system isn't going to see anything allergenic, but if these big particles get into the blood stream, they're gonna come in contact with all the parts of the immune system and so the simple fact that big particles are in the body means that our immune system is constantly being exposed to antigens and he demonstrated that circulatory damage was very clear, but as an immunologist he believed that those particles were contributing to diseases that corresponded to the type of antigen in the food.

So the foods we should avoid that contain high starch granules or high starch percent
would be grains and

Yeah any starchy food, and if the starch is very very well cooked, like boiling it for forty to sixty minutes and then eating it with fat, the fat slows down the absorption and allows the digestive enzymes to soften it up, so that it doesn't get through the barrier of the intestine without being further broken down.

Presumably most people's intestines for want of a better word would be inflamed from poor diet, from poor food, dietary insults we'll call them, and in that case then they are probably more at risk and more subject to that passage of starch granules through the intestinal barrier, what would normally be a barrier or perceived to be a barrier

Yeah and that inflammation besides weakening the barrier function, that is increased by the immune reactions increase the production of inflammatory materials and it becomes a vicious circle, and two nutrients that are very important in stopping that vicious circle are magnesium and vitamin A, and both of those are dependent on having adequate protein in the diet.

Okay, so fats taken with starches and I think that you have mentioned this before, that does ring a bell with me anyway, you said that fats, when mixed with starches, slow the absorption and/or the passage if you like of these starch granules through into the bloodstream and that's why you advocate plenty of butter with potatoes for example.

Yeah, and having the digestive enzymes being produced abundantly that requires a total good nutrition, good thyroid function and so on

Because if you have low thyroid function don't you have low hydrochloric acid and it's hard for you to start breaking down the food?

All of the little glands in the digestive system slow down, don't produce as many enzymes

your liver won't produce the same amount of bile, and

Yeah

Well and also, you know, soaking of grains, you know and in Mexico, for thousands of
years corn has been

Yeah even in my parents' and grandparents' generation, the way bread was made was completely different, and letting it rise for eight or ten hours, letting the dough, adding sugar, balloon, the yeast grow, the slow leavening process of using wheat or other grains activated enzymes that broke down the starches, turned them into sugar, let the yeast grow, and activated enzymes that broke down the gluten, and the combination of the carbohydrate, the sugar's energy and the amino acids liberated from breaking down the gluten produced new proteins, so that the slow leavening actually can increase the protein by 100 or 200%. [4][5]

And the same with the corn, because it increases the absorption of the nutrients when Corn is mixed with, boiled with lime

Yeah, it decreases toxins and increases the nutrients

So it's modern day food that's killing us, slowly or not

Yeah, the grains, people thousands of years ago discovered that both the slow leavening and boiling the grains with lye or lime would break down the toxins and make them more nutritious, so it's just the since about the 1940 when the bread industry discovered that they could make instant bread by adding chemicals to pull it up.

[1] Passage of particles through the wall of the gastrointestinal tract

The passage of orally administered particles into the cerebrospinal fluid was observed in both animals and in human subjects.
Passage into the peritoneal cavity of orally administered particles was observed in animals and in human subjects with ascites.
Elimination of granules into the milk was observed in lactating women after oral administration of starch. It is worth mentioning that this elimination can be seen within a few minutes after ingestion of the starch; a maximum was reached within 12-15 min.
Transplacental passage of particles was confirmed. Such particles were demonstrated in the cord blood of newborn infants when the mother was given starch about 1 hr previously. This observation we made also in animals.
Elimination of particles into the bile was also confirmed. Granules can be demonstrated in the bile 12 min after administration of starch. The same observations were made also with other particles; stained cellulose fibers, silicate fibers, and powdered lobster shells.

[2] THE PHENOMENON OF PERSORPTION: PERSORPTION, DISSEMINATION, AND ELIMINATION OF MICROPARTICLES - HISTORY
[3] Persorption of raw starch: a cause of senile dementia?
[4] Proteolysis by Sourdough Lactic Acid Bacteria: Effects on Wheat Flour Protein Fractions and Gliadin Peptides Involved in Human Cereal Intolerance
[5] Gluten Hydrolysis and Depolymerization during Sourdough Fermentation

 

[charlie]

 

[EnoreeG]

KMUD Radio, The Herb Doctors, 05/15/2015

I think that cheapness is the main factor for even dietitians are taught to promote a certain amount of starch in the diet and starting in the 1930s the U.S. government designed and taught dietitians to promote three levels of nutrition, one to simply prevent starvation emphasizing beans and cereals, another middle class more health-oriented diet and a rich persons' diet with plenty of animal protein, and that emphasis originally it was relatively meaningful, valuable to hungry people to know how to get by on a diet of just a few cents a day for beans and grains balancing things for minimal survival purposes, but for economic reasons the like the breakfast cereal industry subsidized nutrition journals and dietetics journals and taught dietitians to say that these things are healthful, that the foods that were originally promoted just to survive now they're called "health foods", whole cereals, legumes and so on.

Yeah, he was, he rediscovered work that had been done seventy or eighty years earlier [2] and called persorption of particles, ...

Yep! This starch thing is important.

I'll add an aside: We get lots of starch offered to us at the market due to it's shelf life. So the economy is also (and probably mainly) about the industrial economy, and no longer about recommending an economic way for the poor population to just survive. I know you weren't saying "It's all because of dietitians". But I just wanted to add this.

Now the main thing I think we could discuss is this persorption issue. First define if this is just another word for Leaky Gut. And second try to get some studies cited which have determined whether the persorption happens in even the healthiest gut (I tend to think not), or is a consequence of vile gut abuse from a consistently horrible diet.

If persorption is not a native gut feature, but brought on only by poor diet, then advice on how to avoid or fix a leaky gut is possibly all we need:

http://www.purehealingfoods.com/infoLeakyGut.php#Confusion

If, as Peat implies in this interview, we are all vulnerable to taking in small particles and compromising our immune systems drastically, then why not turn this into a stage-5 alert on the dangers of starches, as it's no small threat? I'd love to hear input on these questions.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I'm not sure it would be easy to recognize a "Ray Peat stage-5 alert" since this is not a person who shouts in youtube videos and writes clickbait titles. Something he recommends against may very well be, and very well have been seen by him, causing deadly illness. This does not imply that he will write to you in big words to "save " you so he can join the famous "conspiracy against the asker of a question". As you may have noticed, most of the advice he gives is quite soft-core compared to what his theory would suggest, and this is because he aknowledges the emptiness in just telling people how to reach age two-hundred compared to the fullness in telling people how to avoid major diseases and be able to gracefully and fully express their spirit in the context of an essentially unpredictable lifespan.

As for the healthy persorption, Ray Peat and some of his students tried it out for themselves and the particles were found in the blood. I don't know if you would consider a college student an example of the "healthiest gut", but just this concept of healthiest by itself would seem quite useless if even a twenty-year-old couldn't aspire to reach it. Furthermore, if the starch damage really only concerned sick intestines, then that would necessarily entail that healthy intestines never came into contact with the starch itself, and the reasoning would become circular.

 

[XPlus]

Thanks, Such_
This is a great read

 

[mt_dreams]

This is a great refresh on how I believe Ray views starch. I just love how he doesn't give us the answer we've been programmed to want.

Regarding slowing down the digestion with fat when eating potatoes, wouldn't slow digesting proteins also slow down digestion? or is it not ideal to mix large starch with large meat protein in one meal?

 

[jyb]

As for the healthy persorption, Ray Peat and some of his students tried it out for themselves and the particles were found in the blood. I don't know if you would consider a college student an example of the "healthiest gut", but just this concept of healthiest by itself would seem quite useless if even a twenty-year-old couldn't aspire to reach it. Furthermore, if the starch damage really only concerned sick intestines, then that would necessarily entail that healthy intestines never came into contact with the starch itself, and the reasoning would become circular.

Which starch did they use? I read how some do special damage to the intestine, such as flour, so I would imagine the more damaging or inflammatory, the bigger the particle absorption problem is.

 

[Such_Saturation]

They ate tortillas, then they tried nixtamal tortillas and it didn't happen.

 

[narouz]

KMUD Radio, The Herb Doctors, 05/15/2015

It’s estimated that starch provides about seventy to eighty percent of the calories consumed by humans worldwide, so we can get into the description of starch in a moment Doctor Peat, but why is it, I mean I know that it’s cheap and easy to mass cultivate and now it’s patentable in the form of GMO corn and potato and rice especially so how do we make that connection?

I think that cheapness is the main factor for even dietitians are taught to promote a certain amount of starch in the diet and starting in the 1930s the U.S. government designed and taught dietitians to promote three levels of nutrition, one to simply prevent starvation emphasizing beans and cereals, another middle class more health-oriented diet and a rich persons' diet with plenty of animal protein, and that emphasis originally it was relatively meaningful, valuable to hungry people to know how to get by on a diet of just a few cents a day for beans and grains balancing things for minimal survival purposes, but for economic reasons the like the breakfast cereal industry subsidized nutrition journals and dietetics journals and taught dietitians to say that these things are healthful, that the foods that were originally promoted just to survive now they're called "health foods", whole cereals, legumes and so on.

So it's gone full circle

Yeah, so rich people now are indoctrinated so that they're eating whole-grain bread and so on

Getting on to starch, something that really caught my attention when you first talked about it, it was the middle of last year some time, but you mentioned some pioneering work done by

Gerhard Volkheimer [1][2][3]

and starches, would you describe that?

Yeah, he was, he rediscovered work that had been done seventy or eighty years earlier [2] and called persorption of particles, and it refers to the fact that even though ordinary digestion theory says that even proteins are broken down in the intestine and absorbed as small molecules particles, amino acids, he and his predecessors showed that if you feed starch consisting of the naturally formed starch grains which can range from half the diameter of the red blood cell to ten times the diameter of the red blood cell, in other words much too big to even pass through the smallest arterioles, definitely a lot of them will plug up capillaries many of them will block arterioles, he demonstrated both with people and with mice that feeding starch, like a cup of a slurry, corn starch for example, and then drawing blood fifteen minutes later he could find the type of starch particle that they'd drunk in the bloodstream, and then fifteen minutes later he'd start finding it in the other body compartments, it would show up in the urine passing through the kidney barrier and ultimately he found it in the cerebrospinal fluid and every compartment in the body he would find these starch grains plugging arteries, in experimental animals he would slice them up at different stages, having been fed starch chronically, and he found that it caused mice to age prematurely and when he sliced them up, he found that every place where these starch grains lodged in an arteriole or capillary, the surrounding cells would be starved of nutrients and would die, so these animals it was like being having a shotgun working internally, killing little pockets of cells. And he was an immunologist, that was what got him interested in thinking about how your food can affect the immune system, if it's broken down into small particles before it gets in the body the immune system isn't going to see anything allergenic, but if these big particles get into the blood stream, they're gonna come in contact with all the parts of the immune system and so the simple fact that big particles are in the body means that our immune system is constantly being exposed to antigens and he demonstrated that circulatory damage was very clear, but as an immunologist he believed that those particles were contributing to diseases that corresponded to the type of antigen in the food.

So the foods we should avoid that contain high starch granules or high starch percent
would be grains and

Yeah any starchy food, and if the starch is very very well cooked, like boiling it for forty to sixty minutes and then eating it with fat, the fat slows down the absorption and allows the digestive enzymes to soften it up, so that it doesn't get through the barrier of the intestine without being further broken down.

Presumably most people's intestines for want of a better word would be inflamed from poor diet, from poor food, dietary insults we'll call them, and in that case then they are probably more at risk and more subject to that passage of starch granules through the intestinal barrier, what would normally be a barrier or perceived to be a barrier

Yeah and that inflammation besides weakening the barrier function, that is increased by the immune reactions increase the production of inflammatory materials and it becomes a vicious circle, and two nutrients that are very important in stopping that vicious circle are magnesium and vitamin A, and both of those are dependent on having adequate protein in the diet.

Okay, so fats taken with starches and I think that you have mentioned this before, that does ring a bell with me anyway, you said that fats, when mixed with starches, slow the absorption and/or the passage if you like of these starch granules through into the bloodstream and that's why you advocate plenty of butter with potatoes for example.

Yeah, and having the digestive enzymes being produced abundantly that requires a total good nutrition, good thyroid function and so on

Because if you have low thyroid function don't you have low hydrochloric acid and it's hard for you to start breaking down the food?

All of the little glands in the digestive system slow down, don't produce as many enzymes

your liver won't produce the same amount of bile, and

Yeah

Well and also, you know, soaking of grains, you know and in Mexico, for thousands of
years corn has been

Yeah even in my parents' and grandparents' generation, the way bread was made was completely different, and letting it rise for eight or ten hours, letting the dough, adding sugar, balloon, the yeast grow, the slow leavening process of using wheat or other grains activated enzymes that broke down the starches, turned them into sugar, let the yeast grow, and activated enzymes that broke down the gluten, and the combination of the carbohydrate, the sugar's energy and the amino acids liberated from breaking down the gluten produced new proteins, so that the slow leavening actually can increase the protein by 100 or 200%. [4][5]

And the same with the corn, because it increases the absorption of the nutrients when Corn is mixed with, boiled with lime

Yeah, it decreases toxins and increases the nutrients

So it's modern day food that's killing us, slowly or not

Yeah, the grains, people thousands of years ago discovered that both the slow leavening and boiling the grains with lye or lime would break down the toxins and make them more nutritious, so it's just the since about the 1940 when the bread industry discovered that they could make instant bread by adding chemicals to pull it up.

[1] Passage of particles through the wall of the gastrointestinal tract

The passage of orally administered particles into the cerebrospinal fluid was observed in both animals and in human subjects.
Passagen into the peritoneal cavity of orally administered particles was observed in animals and in human subjects with ascites.
Elimination of granules into the milk was observed in lactating women after oral administration of starch. It is worth mentioning that this elimination can be seen within a few minutes after ingestion of the starch; a maximum was reached within 12-15 min.
Transplacental passage of particles was confirmed. Such particles were demonstrated in the cord blood of newborn infants when the mother was given starch about 1 hr previously. This observation we made also in animals.
Elimination of particles into the bile was also confirmed. Granules can be demonstrated in the bile 12 min after administration of starch. The same observations were made also with other particles; stained cellulose fibers, silicate fibers, and powdered lobster shells.

[2] THE PHENOMENON OF PERSORPTION: PERSORPTION, DISSEMINATION, AND ELIMINATION OF MICROPARTICLES - HISTORY
[3] Persorption of raw starch: a cause of senile dementia?
[4] Proteolysis by Sourdough Lactic Acid Bacteria: Effects on Wheat Flour Protein Fractions and Gliadin Peptides Involved in Human Cereal Intolerance
[5] Gluten Hydrolysis and Depolymerization during Sourdough Fermentation

Such-
You're gonna let a few details like that
keep you from looking like Matt Damon....!?

 

[Such_Saturation]

I think Matt Damon would rather look like that guy actually

 

[XPlus]

That looks like something out of a commercial chicken barn

 

[Such_Saturation]

Average bodybuilding website commentary

 

[narouz]

That looks like something out of a commercial chicken barn

Perdue brand 100% grain-fed Matt Damon with added breast and thigh portions?

 

[XPlus]

Speaking of Perdue, I heard they're phasing out antibiotics for probiotics.
So their Matt Damon now would have colorectal cancer instead of antibiotic-resistant gonorrhea and would die before it reaches shelves, in which case, it'll be minced, cooked, flavored and sold as cat food.

 

[Such_Saturation]

That took me way too long for 10 minutes of radio.

 

[YuraCZ]

narouz show my your face when you wake up..
and your starch free, fat free body.

 

[Amazoniac]

Such_ thank you for the transcription!

 

[narouz]

That took me way too long for 10 minutes of radio.

Well worth it, Such.
We are indebted to you.

 

[Such_Saturation]

That took me way too long for 10 minutes of radio.

Well worth it, Such.
We are indebted to you.

Yes, post your abs so we can rate them

 

[narouz]

narouz show my your face when you wake up..
and your starch free, fat free body.

Oh alright.