Starch - The Delicious Devil

Vileplume

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We also must take into account the options available for people, considering their metabolic state. I agree with you that when ripe fruit is available, and when a person tolerates liquids well and can drink OJ, these foods are healthier and more beneficial than starches. But people like me, with low metabolisms, cannot tolerate large amounts of juice, and the blood sugar issues from high OJ diets cause more problems than digestible starches do. Relying on OJ as a staple carb source can cause worse health problems in some people, than a diet that includes OJ and starch too.

Also, we must remember that many unripe fruits, like melons for example, contain starch, so by eating raw unripe fruit you're actually consuming uncooked starch, potentially more harmful than well cooked potatoes or masa.

I also found it interesting that when asked on this ORN interview (at 00:44:30) what three foods he would bring with him on a desert island, Peat said "cheese, tortillas, and oranges." Masa then must not be so bad.


View: https://youtu.be/HWBqzz3lguo
 

Apple

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I am not disagreeing with you that meat is problematic. I tend to eat very little read meat.
last time I went on a cheese/meat/eggs diet with no starch I had a temperature improvement , felt more energy and so on, but in a couple of weeks I discovered new warts on my face that never went away. So I stopped it and now I allow myself all types of foods including pasta. There are no clean/perfect/ideal foods ...
 
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Nicole W.

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Regardless Dr. Davis mentions iron problems, it is not the reason why starches are bad. Dr. David talks about ALL starches being bad, and are not fortified. He says they are harmful for the same reasons as Ray Peat.
Well, I think this idea is a little myopic when you consider that the entire human population has eaten starch for millennia. Even our closest living genetic ancestors, Chimpanzees, eat tubers. Certainly, by now, we humans have evolved to handle starchy foods. There are many healthy population that have thrived and continue to thrive on consuming rice, corn, wheat and a variety of other grains. The long-lived Japanese and their regular consumption of rice and yam are a good example. Thousands of years ago we found a way around the problematic components of starch and that is by breaking down the anti-nutrients in some way or by adding in fats when we consume them. Ray Peat acknowledges this fact as well. I don’t think Ray is against the consumption of starch per se, instead I think he promotes the idea of being an intelligent consumer of starch. There are ways to reap the benefits of starch while mitigating the negatives, in other words. I have to agree with Tank though, the fortification of these foods are the devil.
 

boris

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@Rinse & rePeat long cooking and fat will prevent the persorption.

RP: When starch is well cooked, and eaten with some fat and the essential nutrients, it’s safe, except that it’s more likely than sugar to produce fat, and isn’t as effective for mineral balance.


I think the biggest problem with starches besides the persorption are the unsprouted, and therefore toxic commercial flours, so basically any commercial bread and pasta that isn't properly leavened or fermented. The iron fortification makes it even worse.
 
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gaze

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I know this isn't exactly the best measurement, but i have never met someone in real life who I would consider healthy that doesn't eat starch. literally 0. Ray represents an ideal of possibilities, but based on the hundreds of reports on people on this forum who have tried to copy his diet, it hardly pans out perfectly. what's most important is getting pulse to stabilize at a temp above 98. so if that means cutting out starch, then that's great. but if you can maintain a good temp even with eating starch then it's completely fine IMO. it may even help some people get there. properly prepared of course
 
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I know. That's the point I've been trying to get across to you........... why doesn't Davis mention Iron Fortification of wheat, a program that happened ONLY to wheat and rice, at the exact time he determines wheat to start becoming more problematic to humans? Not iron in general, but the tiny iron shavings SPECIFICALLY added to wheat products?

Chapter 2 is even titled "Not your Grandma's Muffins- The Creation of Modern Wheat." It seems like a massive oversight by Davis.
Ray Peat and believes iron is bad, doctors are still handing out iron pills to pregnant women, which Peat says is terrible. Dr. Davis is modern doctor, not the scientist that Ray Peat is. My point of mentioning Dr. Davis is to sat that even modern day doctors say wheat is bad, not that Dr. Davis knows all.
 
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I wish it was so easy. Just select proteins or fats, discard starches and the problem is solved.
I'm rather trying to find a balance.
Ray Peat speaks well of potato, masa harina, oats and he is having humus once in while.
I'm sure if you take away from your ex-mother-in-law pasta and cookies she'll be begging to bring them back in a couple of days
Oats rot your teeth more than all of the grains so that isn't an option, not to mention you waste all of your cslcium having it carry out the phosphorus. I agree some potato and masa are the SAFEST, but am with OccamzRazer and Ray Peat and staying off that starch rollercoaster. Like he says why would you choose starches when there are better quality foods to choose from, like FROZEN fruit ?
 
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@Rinse & rePeat long cooking and fat will prevent the persorption.

RP: When starch is well cooked, and eaten with some fat and the essential nutrients, it’s safe, except that it’s more likely than sugar to produce fat, and isn’t as effective for mineral balance.


I think the biggest problem with starches besides the persorption are the unsprouted, and therefore toxic commercial flours, so basically any commercial bread and pasta that isn't properly leavened or fermented. The iron fortification makes it even worse.
He flat out says starches and fats make you fat. He shows you ways to minimize the damage so you can do what you want, but he has always said they (except for potato) are not optimal, which was the whole point of my post.
 
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Well, I think this idea is a little myopic when you consider that the entire human population has eaten starch for millennia. Even our closest living genetic ancestors, Chimpanzees, eat tubers. Certainly, by now, we humans have evolved to handle starchy foods. There are many healthy population that have thrived and continue to thrive on consuming rice, corn, wheat and a variety of other grains. The long-lived Japanese and their regular consumption of rice and yam are a good example. Thousands of years ago we found a way around the problematic components of starch and that is by breaking down the anti-nutrients in some way or by adding in fats when we consume them. Ray Peat acknowledges this fact as well. I don’t think Ray is against the consumption of starch per se, instead I think he promotes the idea of being an intelligent consumer of starch. There are ways to reap the benefits of starch while mitigating the negatives, in other words. I have to agree with Tank though, the fortification of these foods are the devil.
Ray Peat eats bacon too, not because he thinks it's nutritious, so that is exactly to your point. He has never said people don't eat starchez and thrive, especially if there are no other choices. Who wouldn't enjoy a warm potato with lots of butter, it stays pleasantly in my stomach for a long time, but that doesn't change his words "starches and fats make you fat" and "starches are not optimal". With that being said everyone can enjoy their pancakes, pizza and potatoes. Isn't it great to have so many choices? :)
 
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W
last time I went on a cheese/meat/eggs diet with no starch I had a temperature improvement , felt more energy and so on, but in a couple of weeks I discovered new warts on my face that never went away. So I stopped it and now I allow myself all types of foods including pasta. There are no clean/perfect/ideal foods ...
Well i went paleo for several years and it was the most fit I have ever been. My teeth were whiter and I had no bloating, so everybody has their own views on it, and I am glad I am choosing to eat fruit instead, my skin loves it WAY more than starches!
 
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We also must take into account the options available for people, considering their metabolic state. I agree with you that when ripe fruit is available, and when a person tolerates liquids well and can drink OJ, these foods are healthier and more beneficial than starches. But people like me, with low metabolisms, cannot tolerate large amounts of juice, and the blood sugar issues from high OJ diets cause more problems than digestible starches do. Relying on OJ as a staple carb source can cause worse health problems in some people, than a diet that includes OJ and starch too.

Also, we must remember that many unripe fruits, like melons for example, contain starch, so by eating raw unripe fruit you're actually consuming uncooked starch, potentially more harmful than well cooked potatoes or masa.

I also found it interesting that when asked on this ORN interview (at 00:44:30) what three foods he would bring with him on a desert island, Peat said "cheese, tortillas, and oranges." Masa then must not be so bad.


View: https://youtu.be/HWBqzz3lguo

I would bring masa tortillas too, and some hot sauce! It'll make eating all those nasty bugs and critters go down much easier! I know our fruit supply is terrible, but frozen fruit is actually a better choice over fresh. They are picked when ripe and immediately frozen, rather than having it shipped fresh and left to degrade for who knows how long. It has always been nice knowing Ray Peat likes to cut loose sometimes too and eat less optimal foods like bacon and tortillas, makes me feel a little better when I splurge too!
 

boris

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He flat out says starches and fats make you fat. He shows you ways to minimize the damage so you can do what you want, but he has always said they (except for potato) are not optimal, which was the whole point of my post.

I agree. It was meant as a response to the first part:
"Volkheimer found that mice fed raw starch aged at an abnormally fast rate, and when he dissected the starch-fed mice, he found a multitude of starch-grain-blocked arterioles in every organ, each of which caused the death of the cells that depended on the blood supplied by that arteriole. It isn’t hard to see how this would affect the functions of organs such as the brain and heart, even without considering the immunological and other implications of the presence of foreign particles randomly distributed through the tissue."
Ray Peat

I see and hear the "starch vs sugar" debate all the time on this forum, but after reading this quote from Ray Peat, what argument is there?

People eating well cooked potatoes with butter every day can be very healthy even if isn't optimal. Putting on a little bit of fat isn't necessarily too unhealthy when it's saturated. I think what makes people really sick is the modern bread and pasta.
 
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I agree with you Boris that grains are the major problem. There is so much value in a potato, like you said, even it isn't optimal.
 
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Starch feels like poison to me. I get all the typical HIGH serotonin symptoms from starch.
I love grains and potatoes, more than fruit, dairy and proteins, but I definetly get tubby pretty quick when I indulge too often. Haidut has a new thread which he posted this study.
 

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"Volkheimer found that mice fed raw starch aged at an abnormally fast rate, and when he dissected the starch-fed mice, he found a multitude of starch-grain-blocked arterioles in every organ, each of which caused the death of the cells that depended on the blood supplied by that arteriole. It isn’t hard to see how this would affect the functions of organs such as the brain and heart, even without considering the immunological and other implications of the presence of foreign particles randomly distributed through the tissue."
Ray Peat

I see and hear the "starch vs sugar" debate all the time on this forum, but after reading this quote from Ray Peat, what argument is there? Grains are proven to be one of several causes of Alzheimers. I know is true in my own father's case. It is called "grain brain". My father is a normal healthy person until he eats grains. After he eats a meal, with wheat particularly, he goes into a trance, where he won't talk much for several days and can't remember much of anything.

There is another book I read a few years back written by top cardiologist, Dr. Davis, and is titled "Wheat Belly". It not only makes a convincing case for why everyone is fat, but he also states that it is the number one reason for heart disease. This prompted me to go Paleo right away. Our modern wheat, he calls "Frankenwheat", because it is altered to a destructive monsterous state. It affects the opioid part of the brain, the same as drugs, causing a vicious cycle of unhealthy and unstoppable cravings. He goes so far as to say that our modern wheat is unsuitable for human consumption. From a "Peaty' perspective it is a book worth reading and will make those sweet little cupcakes look like frosted covered demons.

What happened to mankind that we have come so far from valuing food for how it strengthens us, like liver and heart, to choosing foods that we know are going to make us slow, ill and fat? I am not excluding myself from the latter. I justify a good bowl of pasta, by saying it is made with a better wheat from Italy and "look at all the protein I am getting". I know better, but yet I make the weaker choice too. I summize we make less optimal choices because nothing is really expected from our bodies anymore. Tribal hunters NEED to be strong and WANT to prove they are SUPERIOR. They need to be FAST and sustain ENERGY. Their eating optimally meant getting the next meal. Nowaday a meal is there without much effort. We can AFFORD to make LESS optimal choices because we TAKE our health for granted and value INDULGENCES more, never thinking of the COST. Look at the key words in the two different ways of eating.

In my youth when I saw a lot of life ahead of me I chose the "Live To Eat" stance, now that my youth is many years behind me I have changed my mind and now want to "Eat To Live". I just don't see the fun in ruining my health anymore.
There are a lot of testimonials all over this forum that agree that starches cause weight gain.
 

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jet9

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+1 to grains = poison. It's the food group that make me feel the worst. Worse than even plant PUFA. (i am grain free for 5+ years already, even before peat)

But how many people on this forum managed to go complete starch free long term without bunch of supplements / hormones / etc ?
It's seems to be possible only by either drinking lots of milk or eating lots of animal fat. Not sure that it's right route to go either (comparing to adding some starch)
 
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+1 to grains = poison. It's the food group that make me feel the worst. Worse than even plant PUFA. (i am grain free for 5+ years already, even before peat)

But how many people on this forum managed to go complete starch free long term without bunch of supplements / hormones / etc ?
It's seems to be possible only by either drinking lots of milk or eating lots of animal fat. Not sure that it's right route to go either (comparing to adding some starch)
I was grain free for a couple of years too jet9 until transitioning into Ray Peat. I have had no issues that require suppliments. Now adding the dairy and sugar makes it even easier to stay away from starches. How did taking starches out effect your weight and health?
 
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"Volkheimer found that mice fed raw starch aged at an abnormally fast rate, and when he dissected the starch-fed mice, he found a multitude of starch-grain-blocked arterioles in every organ, each of which caused the death of the cells that depended on the blood supplied by that arteriole. It isn’t hard to see how this would affect the functions of organs such as the brain and heart, even without considering the immunological and other implications of the presence of foreign particles randomly distributed through the tissue."
Ray Peat

I see and hear the "starch vs sugar" debate all the time on this forum, but after reading this quote from Ray Peat, what argument is there? Grains are proven to be one of several causes of Alzheimers. I know is true in my own father's case. It is called "grain brain". My father is a normal healthy person until he eats grains. After he eats a meal, with wheat particularly, he goes into a trance, where he won't talk much for several days and can't remember much of anything.

There is another book I read a few years back written by top cardiologist, Dr. Davis, and is titled "Wheat Belly". It not only makes a convincing case for why everyone is fat, but he also states that it is the number one reason for heart disease. This prompted me to go Paleo right away. Our modern wheat, he calls "Frankenwheat", because it is altered to a destructive monsterous state. It affects the opioid part of the brain, the same as drugs, causing a vicious cycle of unhealthy and unstoppable cravings. He goes so far as to say that our modern wheat is unsuitable for human consumption. From a "Peaty' perspective it is a book worth reading and will make those sweet little cupcakes look like frosted covered demons.

What happened to mankind that we have come so far from valuing food for how it strengthens us, like liver and heart, to choosing foods that we know are going to make us slow, ill and fat? I am not excluding myself from the latter. I justify a good bowl of pasta, by saying it is made with a better wheat from Italy and "look at all the protein I am getting". I know better, but yet I make the weaker choice too. I summize we make less optimal choices because nothing is really expected from our bodies anymore. Tribal hunters NEED to be strong and WANT to prove they are SUPERIOR. They need to be FAST and sustain ENERGY. Their eating optimally meant getting the next meal. Nowaday a meal is there without much effort. We can AFFORD to make LESS optimal choices because we TAKE our health for granted and value INDULGENCES more, never thinking of the COST. Look at the key words in the two different ways of eating.

In my youth when I saw a lot of life ahead of me I chose the "Live To Eat" stance, now that my youth is many years behind me I have changed my mind and now want to "Eat To Live". I just don't see the fun in ruining my health anymore.
 

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