John McDougall Diet? (starch Solution)

[Wagner83]

They are extremely nutritious. All of the evidence points towards them being a longevity promoting food. The protein in them is "new" and fresh in it's seed form as opposed to recycled animal protein. They are not all equal. The three types of lentils are good and most beans like black, pinto, navy, red, white, great northern, mung, adzuki etc. Peas aren't that great and obviously soy is a legume but it's in a different category. Cacao is a legume too but it's also different from lentils and beans. When I say legumes, I'm talking about lentils and certain beans.

Ok thanks.
Why do you think the glucose from oats is absorbed but the PUFAs ain't? They are quite high in PUFAs compared to other grains.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Ok thanks.
Why do you think the glucose from oats is absorbed but the PUFAs ain't? They are quite high in PUFAs compared to other grains.

Because the small amount of fat is hard to extract from the grain. The glucose isn't. Even still the body has to be able to deal with pufa in some amount by the nature of food and fatty acids. We evolved dealing with pufa. The difference now since the last 100 or so years is vegetable oil. People eat crazy amounts of it from mayo, salad dressings and condiments. If there were people living long and mostly disease free eating pufa filled fish then that tells me pufa isn't necessarily the main problem. It's the inability to deal with pufa that is the problem. The thing with all seafood now though is the toxins. Peat said that the pufa itself is toxic and it's not some special processing that makes it toxic but I disagree with that because I think the highly heated oils are chemically different that natural pufa.

 

[Wagner83]

Because the small amount of fat is hard to extract from the grain. The glucose isn't. Even still the body has to be able to deal with pufa in some amount by the nature of food and fatty acids. We evolved dealing with pufa. The difference now since the last 100 or so years is vegetable oil. People eat crazy amounts of it from mayo, salad dressings and condiments. If there were people living long and mostly disease free eating pufa filled fish then that tells me pufa isn't necessarily the main problem. It's the inability to deal with pufa that is the problem. The thing with all seafood now though is the toxins. Peat said that the pufa itself is toxic and it's not some special processing that makes it toxic but I disagree with that because I think the highly heated oils are chemically different that natural pufa.

In the days I ate wild caught salmon I had a lot of issues but it wasnt the only thing I was doing wrong so I cant really blame it. Tyw said pufas were preferentially burnt as fuel if one doesnt eat much fat, I’ve seen you disagree with this point. Besides fatty fish foods high in pufas are very rare in nature, there’s about 4-5 grams per 100 gr of oats’ if one has it as his main carbs source each morning one could double that amount, in a single meal that is pretty high imo but I understand your point. Perhaps our linoleic-arachidonic-linolenic acid lover @Travis has something to share on the differences between pufas from oils and pufas from fruits or prepared grains like oats as well as their potentially harmful effects when found in the latter two?

 

[Fractality]

I recently bought sprouted quick oats (they actually look the same as non-sprouted quick oats). I heat them in a bowl with milk and maple syrup. It keeps me satiated for several hours and it digests cleanly. I've also been eating sprouted english muffins with fruit spread and/or pastured fried egg. I can use these foods as a staple. I was looking at ezekiel bread but I noticed it has gums in it.

 

[Travis]

Because the small amount of fat is hard to extract from the grain. The glucose isn't. Even still the body has to be able to deal with pufa in some amount by the nature of food and fatty acids. We evolved dealing with pufa. The difference now since the last 100 or so years is vegetable oil. People eat crazy amounts of it from mayo, salad dressings and condiments. If there were people living long and mostly disease free eating pufa filled fish then that tells me pufa isn't necessarily the main problem. It's the inability to deal with pufa that is the problem. The thing with all seafood now though is the toxins. Peat said that the pufa itself is toxic and it's not some special processing that makes it toxic but I disagree with that because I think the highly heated oils are chemically different that natural pufa.

I forget about the condiments; this does seem to be the main source of linoleic acid for most people.

I just realized that 20% of the fatty acids in egg yolk is linoleic acid (on average). I think a more Peat‐friendly choice would be the ω−3 eggs you see at the store. Although just as unsaturated, these fatty acids don't have the hormonal effects of linoleic acid and the species derived therefrom (i.e. arachidonic acid, prostaglandin E₂, prostaglandin D₂, leukotriene B₄).

After taking a hard look at grains, and even oats, I think the best vegan foods relatively high in protein are potatoes, leaves, coconuts, and legumes. Rice and corn are hypoimmunogenic, but corn has linoleic acid and rice is generally refined—stripped of its minerals. I'm a coconut and leaf kinda guy, but potatoes and lentils are certainly a better choice than most foods (having low linoleic acid, non‐immunogenic proteins, and also unrefined). Although soy is higher in polyamines than most foods, the consumption of soy does not seem to increase colon cancer rates. Perhaps the reason is that it does not inhibit transit time, a fact that could be more of a cause of polyamine formation than anything. Prostaglandin E₂ has been shown to upregulate the transcription of ornithine decarboxylase (the main polyamine‐producing enzyme), making linoleic acid just as formative in creating polyamines than methionine and the diamines themselves. Polyamines specifically interact with microtubules (which need to be disassembled before mitosis) and DNA, after which they increase the replication rate—proven both in cell culture studies and PCR amplification.

So linoleic acid still appears to be public enemy number one, to my eyes, and polyamines can be an issue when ingested in high amounts. Constipation can also be an issue, giving bacteria more time to create them (some species of bacteria have been proven to create polyamines from methionine).

But fruit has protein. The low protein concentrations seen in tables are, partially, a result of their high water concentration. This is of course somewhat deceptive; if eggs or beef were 90% water it would make for a fairer comparison. And considering the neurological effects of tryptophan (serotonin precursor) and histadine (histamine precursor), excessive protein—consumed over the amount needed to regenerate bodily proteins—may not be the best idea. Moreover, excessive arginine could raise both nitric oxide and polyamines; excessive methionine also forms polyamines, but also forms the lipid‐peroxidizing homocysteine upon loss of its S‐methyl group.

 

[sweetpeat]

Sri Lankans are known to be big eaters of starch.

This is one of their starchy breakfast food.

This looks incredibly tasty! He can come cook for me

 

[Westside PUFAs]

I forget about the condiments; this does seem to be the main source of linoleic acid for most people.

And fried foods and supplements.

but corn has linoleic acid and rice is generally refined—stripped of its minerals.

In the case of white rice yes but white rice is used for it's most important nutrient which is sugar. You can get micronutrients elsewhere. Or just eat soaked brown.

But fruit has protein. The low protein concentrations seen in tables are, partially, a result of their high water concentration. This is of course somewhat deceptive, and if eggs or beef was 90% water it would make for fairer comparison.

What do you make of Peat's "carbon skeleton equivalents" that may be in fruits and are confirmed to be in potatoes? tyw disagrees that keto-acids are converted into protein in the blood.

 

[Travis]

I recently bought sprouted quick oats (they actually look the same as non-sprouted quick oats). I heat them in a bowl with milk and maple syrup. It keeps me satiated for several hours and it digests cleanly. I've also been eating sprouted english muffins with fruit spread and/or pastured fried egg. I can use these foods as a staple. I was looking at ezekiel bread but I noticed it has gums in it.

I did look into oats, and they do have a resistant protein. This has been shown to release interferon-γ from white blood cells taken from some people. Although not as immunogenic as gluten, the immunogenic proline–glutamine‐rich peptides exist in ~5× less concentration—making it a ~5× better food (but still more immunogenic than than potatoes, corn, and rice). I recently did a bioassay on oats: I ate like half of one of those giant containers in one day; I was wrecked. Certain commercially available enzymes can cleave the resistant proline–glutamine‐rich peptides thereby abrogating all immunogenic potential.

I think this is important because histamine is a neurotransmitter. It acts like a stimulant but decreases learning in rats. Although histamine does not cross the blood–brain barrier, histamine producing mast cells do. Mast cells have been found in ~3× the concentrations in the intestines of grain‐eating celiacs. So eating wheat, and to a ~5× lesser extent oats, could lead to—in some people at least—excessive brain histamine. But this all depends, of course, on how well a person breaks‐down the protein. Prolyl endopeptidases are found on the brush border of the human intestine, and it is assumed that people have varying enzyme activities. You can tell if oats or gluten is increasing histamine by looking for that punishing, stimulant effect of histamine and any inflammation consequent of interferon-γ release (increases prostaglandins by upregulating phospholipase A₂).

I did come across some information that the bacteria used to make sourdough makes the gluten protein more easily cleaved. I think—if I remember correctly—this has been explained by the glutamines being deanimated. I can't quite remember, but if someone reacts to gluten (i.e. it is being absorbed in peptides over about seven amino acids long) then this could be a thing to consider (along with prolyl endopeptidase).

 

[Travis]

And fried foods and supplements.



In the case of white rice yes but white rice is used for it's most important nutrient which is sugar. You can get micronutrients elsewhere. Or just eat soaked brown.



What do you make of Peat's "carbon skeleton equivalents" that may be in fruits and are confined to be in potatoes? tyw disagrees that keto-acids are converted into protein in the blood.

They do have keto acids, but this is a low level. These keto acids are thought to be aminated to amino acids proper by the intuitively‐named transaminase enzyme. I think perhaps having these keto acids could correct an imbalance, as the amino group from the acid in excess can be trans‐posed to a keto skeleton. Indeed: some amino acids are made this way (the non‐essential ones), and you'd have to be almost certain that some exogenous keto acids would become amino acids.

But they account, if I remember correctly, for only about 5% of the total protein content. What I remember, for certain, is that I had read a few analytical articles on this but had decided not to trumpet 'fruit has extra protein'—despite my fruitarian bias.

I think the 30–40·g·protein·d⁻¹ is suitable; a meta‐analysis of the hundreds of protein studies conducted to determine the dietary requirement have this as a lower, but acceptable, range. Also true is that I'm still magically alive, despite subsisting off completely natural foods which sum to this protein range—nearly all other primates eat like this—which should somehow be fatal for a human (according to meat industry fear, uncertainty, and doubt).

 

[Fractality]

I did look into oats, and they do have a resistant protein. This has been shown to release interferon-γ from white blood cells taken from some people. Although not as immunogenic as gluten, the immunogenic proline–glutamine‐rich peptides exist in ~5× less concentration—making it a ~5× better food (but still more immunogenic than than potatoes, corn, and rice). I recently did a bioassay on oats: I ate like half of one of those giant containers in one day; I was wrecked. Certain commercially available enzymes can cleave the resistant proline–glutamine‐rich peptides thereby abrogating all immunogenic potential.

I think this is important because histamine is a neurotransmitter. It acts like a stimulant but decreases learning in rats. Although histamine does not cross the blood–brain barrier, histamine producing mast cells do. Mast cells have been found in ~3× the concentrations in the intestines of grain‐eating celiacs. So eating wheat, and to a ~5× lesser extent oats, could lead to—in some people at least—excessive brain histamine. But this all depends, of course, on how well a person breaks‐down the protein. Prolyl endopeptidases are found on the brush border of the human intestine, and it is assumed that people have varying enzyme activities. You can tell if oats or gluten is increasing histamine by looking for that punishing, stimulant effect of histamine and any inflammation consequent of interferon-γ release (increases prostaglandins by upregulating phospholipase A₂).

I did come across some information that the bacteria used to make sourdough makes the gluten protein more easily cleaved. I think—if I remember correctly—this has been explained by the glutamines being deanimated. I can't quite remember, but if someone reacts to gluten (i.e. it is being absorbed in peptides over about seven amino acids long) then this could be a thing to consider (along with prolyl endopeptidase).

Well so far so good...the organic sprouted quick oats don't give me symptoms of inflammation despite eating large bowls. Perhaps if I ate the same amount of Quaker oats I would be singing a different tune. Did your research indicate whether or not sprouting mitigates the immunogenic peptides in oats?

 

[Travis]

Well so far so good...the organic sprouted quick oats don't give me symptoms of inflammation despite eating large bowls. Perhaps if I ate the same amount of Quaker oats I would be singing a different tune. Did your research indicate whether or not sprouting mitigates the immunogenic peptides in oats?

No, but I felt okay eating just regular oats (not rolled). Rolled oats either make me feel like an old man for a few days, or like I got hit by a truck—depending on how much I eat.

Sprouting of course converts the seed storage proteins into other proteins. It's the seed storage proteins which have the immunogenic proline—glutamine‐rich areas. There is a point where gluten turns into wheatgrass proteins as it grows, completely hypoallergenic, but at what point this happens I'm not sure. I can imaging there actually being a study which had analyzed immunogenicity as a function of sprouting time.

Whatever breaks the proline—glutamine bonds will work. The amino acids themselves are safe, and the toxicity of gluten basically comes from the body itself dealing with a protein fragment it couldn't completely break down.

 

[raypeatclips]

You can tell if oats or gluten is increasing histamine by looking for that punishing, stimulant effect of histamine

Please could you explain this further, exactly what we should be looking out for in regards to histamine issues?

 

[Koveras]

I think this is important because histamine is a neurotransmitter. It acts like a stimulant but decreases learning in rats.

I wonder what implications that has for individuals using modafinil as a nootropic

Vitam Horm. 2012;89:259-78. doi: 10.1016/B978-0-12-394623-2.00014-7.
Action of modafinil through histaminergic and orexinergic neurons.
Ishizuka T1, Murotani T, Yamatodani A.
Modafinil is a wake-promoting drug used for the treatment of excessive daytime sleepiness due to narcolepsy as well as excessive sleepiness associated with obstructive sleep apnea and shift work disorder. Although the wake-promoting effect of modafinil is expressed through the dopaminergic and the norepinephrinergic systems similar to that of classical psychostimulants, the mechanism of action is distinct from those compounds in terms of the involvement of the histaminergic and the orexinergic systems. Modafinil activates the histaminergic system in an indirect manner, presumably via attenuation of the inhibitory GABAergic input to the histaminergic neurons. The orexinergic system controls arousal through the histaminergic system, and the modafinil-induced increment of histamine release is abolished in orexin neuron-ablated mice, suggesting that modafinil increases histaminergic tone via orexinergic neurons. Clinical and experimental investigations have suggested less importance of the orexinergic system in the wake-promoting effect of modafinil, but the orexinergic system is considered to be involved in modafinil-induced alertness or synaptic plasticity.

 

[G Forrest]

For those in favor of starch like @Westside PUFAs , particularly legumes, what are your thoughts on the high phosphorous levels of legumes?

 

[G Forrest]

Please could you explain this further, exactly what we should be looking out for in regards to histamine issues?

I am also curious to @Travis response on this as well.

 

[Travis]

Please could you explain this further, exactly what we should be looking out for in regards to histamine issues?

Any protein which gets into the body can induce mast cells. These can travel to the brain where they have been counted; the levels range greatly from individual to individual—from essentially zero to thousands. Oats has an enzyme‐resistant prolamin similar to wheat which exists at roughly ¹⁄₅ the concentration; I see oats as gluten lite™, but they should be fine in people having enough stomach acidity.

The more allergenic proteins which get into the body, the more mast cells induced: The more mast cells present, the more histamine produced.

 

[Koveras]

Any protein which gets into the body can induce mast cells.

Immune complexes cause the release of serotonin from platelets as well - and maybe histamine?

 

[Deleted member 5487]

McDougal is a convenient switch from Standard American Diet.
People hop off Pufas and high tryptophan/methanione and they feel a lot better. Shocker.
Or they switch off of low carb and has abundance of glucose, and they can actually sleep and think straight.

Not that there is anything wrong with Spuds. But Beans/bird seeds/grains come on?

Much better to switch to fruit/honey 70% and some whole animal protein like shanks/scallops/oxtail some liver and yolks to actually have sex hormones and elastic skin.

Dougal means well but is only about 70% there.
Any search of YouTube will show primitive tribes looking for honey, digging spuds, and snagging a baboon or small game, which is then eaten whole(gelatin/thyroid/liver)

 

[oldfriend]

Oops