Why Does Starch Make Me Extremely Sick?

[artist]

oh and @skycop00 and @Ewelina , it won't let me edit anymore to tag people

 

[artist]

I added coconut oil in the mix on wednesday and I paid for it dearly. Skin started breaking out within 6 hours, and had anxiety all day Wednesday and Thursday. So it does seem to be fats and not just dairy unfortunately. It takes a few days to get back to normal. I wish I knew exactly why this is, enhanced endotoxin absorption possibly?

 

[Ewelina]

I have the same problem. When things go relatively well I decide to add new things to my diet and then everything goes haywire. Then I have to wait a week or so (Peat said that in females case it can take up to 6 weeks) till things normalise and then get another brilliant idea to add something new.

I also have problems with coconut oil, particularly the unrefined kind. It gives me serious digestive issues plus anxiety. Today I'm experimenting with KTC refined CO - cheaper brand that I haven't touched for years - and so far so good (however it's too soon to be sure). I can still pay for it dearly.

I'm still trying to eat as little fat as possible but I find it extremely difficult. Yesterday I counted everything what I ate and ended up with 16% overall fat intake, despite the fact that I thought I was particularly strict. To go below 10% I would have to drop eggs from the menu, but I'm not sure if I can.

I'm looking forward your updates, artist!

 

[artist]

@Ewelina Wow that's an interesting idea about it taking six weeks for women to normalize, I hadn't come across that Peat quote, I'm gonna hunt for it. 16% is a pretty damn low fat diet but I do agree that you won't get below that magic 10% number without dropping overt fats. On the RawFoodSOS blog Denise Minger talks about the fact that many of the reported benefits of low fat don't seem to kick in until you get all the way down into that sub-10% zone. It might be worth an experiment but I'm not sure I would have if I hadn't found it necessary in my own case.

My skin is slowly calming down as of today and my mood was a lot better by last night. I did go all the way when I added the coco oil and made fried rice just so the effects would be obvious and now I have to live with the consequences haha. I prefer to know now that it is all fat and not only butterfat causing me problems so I don't waste a bunch of time needlessly avoiding something. Makes it much easier to just set-it-and-forget-it when it comes to diet.

I guess I'm on kind of a McDougallish protocol now except instead of the "sometimes foods" being avocados and nuts I cook with animal broths, will eat liver, gelatin etc. I find it interesting (as a white person) that most people who promote veganism and HCLF diets exclusively highlight east Asia and the global south but don't seem to have much of an answer when it comes to traditional European diets, especially when most of the people following their advice are gonna be of European descent. They also don't address that there are no actually vegan cultures anywhere. With some casual research I can find evidence (on various historical blogs and Wikipedia) that most European people (except the stereotypically fatter and sicker elite groups, but even them often times) did subsist on extremely high carb (read: starch) diets, getting as much as 70% of their calories just from grains and legumes and an additional 10+% from beer. This seems to have been particularly the case prior to the 17th century when, really, Europe slowly started the process of modernization. Of course we know a list of things Europeans ate at various times but it's a little hard to nail down the most important piece of information which is the proportions of their diet.

 

[Ewelina]

@artist
Ray talked about it in one of the Herb Doctors interviews. Unfortunately I don't remember in which one exactly but it stuck in my head as I found it very accurate. When I had a period of eating lots of aged cheeses (mostly Edam and Gouda, a bit of feta) my health started deteriorating pretty quickly. I thought it was mostly due to histamine, but now I suspect too high fat could be the culprit. It took well over a month to clear up the effects.

I think it was a good idea to go all the way with CO. At least you can be sure now. Sometimes when I add something new to my diet in smaller amounts it takes a few weeks for the effects to show and then considerably more time to get back to normal.

I will try to be at 10% fat next week and see if any magic happens.

 

[jyb]

I haven't run the numbers but yes it does seem to be lower in PUFA than can be achieved including any significant amount of low fat dairy, which is what I've typically done in the past. I think my lowest fat intake was a long stretch of 20g of dairy fat per day and it was only like 2/3 saturated which is typical of quality dairy. I'm starting to wonder if dairy is a problem for me that's somehow exacerbated by starch, so I'm gonna include coconut oil now and see what happens, for science

Whatever the quality, dairy and beef fats are roughly 3% PUFA, so you can't really do better (coconut oil is about 2%). However, quality dairy will not have the same pufa fats (Ray wrote favourably of CLA) even if the total amount is the same.

 

[artist]

@Ewelina it's extremely difficult to control so many variables! I have had a hard time with high histamine foods as well

@jyb I hear you, I did bunch PUFA and MUFA together in that assessment which might be unfair to do. In any case eliminating dairy, meat and all overt fats has lowered my fat intake from PUFA, MUFA and SF to even lower levels especially relative to an increased carbohydrate intake.

 

[skycop00]

@Ewelina it's extremely difficult to control so many variables! I have had a hard time with high histamine foods as well

@jyb I hear you, I did bunch PUFA and MUFA together in that assessment which might be unfair to do. In any case eliminating dairy, meat and all overt fats has lowered my fat intake from PUFA, MUFA and SF to even lower levels especially relative to an increased carbohydrate intake.

I started lowering fat and raising Carbs last week. I noticed slightly more water retention and that is about it so far. At about 20 grams of FAT per day now! Still doing about 100 grams of Protein and 500 grams of carbs, so around 2400-2600 calories a day. I am a muscular (but still carrying about 24% bodyfat) 52 year old male at 5'9" and 225lbs. Let's see where this goes..=))

 

[lvysaur]

@Ewelina most people who promote veganism and HCLF diets exclusively highlight east Asia and the global south but don't seem to have much of an answer when it comes to traditional European dietsespecially when most of the people following their advice are gonna be of European descent. They also don't address that there are no actually vegan cultures anywhere. With some casual research I can find evidence (on various historical blogs and Wikipedia) that most European people (except the stereotypically fatter and sicker elite groups, but even them often times) did subsist on extremely high carb (read: starch)

I never understood the fascination with "traditional" diets.

"These guys lived in abject poverty and were 5 feet tall, let's eat like they did"

While we're on the topic of ancestry, I have a suspicion that some of the deleterious effects of PUFA are especially harmful for those who descend from hot climates, since such climates naturally have a low prevalence of PUFA.

 

[artist]



I never understood the fascination with "traditional" diets.

"These guys lived in abject poverty and were 5 feet tall, let's eat like they did"

While we're on the topic of ancestry, I have a suspicion that some of the deleterious effects of PUFA are especially harmful for those who descend from hot climates, since such climates naturally have a low prevalence of PUFA.

You kinda contradict yourself in your post there. The reason people are interested in traditional diets is because of exactly what you mention, that there is information there about the fuel our bodies have been optimized to run on. Not everyone was living in poverty and even if people all did live in poverty that would've been an evolutionary pressure that led to our current biology and influence how well our bodies handle "poverty foods". Is taller/bigger always better? 1/3 of American pregnancies are by cesarean now because our unborn children are too ginormous to come out the birth canal, and the age of puberty has decreased for girls by 5+ years in the last century. I'm not a big believer in the simple linear progression theory of history and am interested in pre-modern ways including when it comes to diet

 

[Derek]

While we're on the topic of ancestry, I have a suspicion that some of the deleterious effects of PUFA are especially harmful for those who descend from hot climates, since such climates naturally have a low prevalence of PUFA.

Yes, and some of the negative effects or intolerance to SFA like coconut/palm kernel oil can be seen from people who descend from cooler climates. A lot of my Black or Asian friends tolerate these tropical oils far better than my white friends. I am Polish/Greek/Irish/Macedonian, my ancestry has never in history been exposed to coconut oil; until now.

 

[EIRE24]

Yes, and some of the negative effects or intolerance to SFA like coconut/palm kernel oil can be seen from people who descend from cooler climates. A lot of my Black or Asian friends tolerate these tropical oils far better than my white friends. I am Polish/Greek/Irish/Macedonian, my ancestry has never in history been exposed to coconut oil; until now.

Agree 100% with this. Coconut oil does not sit well with me at all and I get acne and other symptoms when I include lots of it in my diet. Also, strangely enough fruit doesn't sit well with me either and I get problems. I am Irish and wonder if it is due to my ancestors never actually eating coconut oil or fruit as the climate would not have allowed for it. I do awesome on a diet of potatoes, well cooked vegetables and meat.

 

[artist]

Interesting anecdotes both of you. I'll probably do a trial with getting my fats from meats instead of coconut n see where it goes

 

[lvysaur]

Yes, and some of the negative effects or intolerance to SFA like coconut/palm kernel oil can be seen from people who descend from cooler climates. A lot of my Black or Asian friends tolerate these tropical oils far better than my white friends. I am Polish/Greek/Irish/Macedonian, my ancestry has never in history been exposed to coconut oil; until now.

Macedonian/Greek is pretty far south, and southern Europe (Europe in general but the southeast moreso) tends to share some genes with the Middle East. Asians (Japan/Korea) seem to have a lot of cold climate features.

I think europeans who descend mainly from the indigenous paleolithic people, and less of the indo-european pastoral/middle-eastern farmer ancestry probably do better on meats/PUFA, and worse on milk/sugars.

 

[Ewelina]

Agree 100% with this. Coconut oil does not sit well with me at all and I get acne and other symptoms when I include lots of it in my diet. Also, strangely enough fruit doesn't sit well with me either and I get problems. I am Irish and wonder if it is due to my ancestors never actually eating coconut oil or fruit as the climate would not have allowed for it. I do awesome on a diet of potatoes, well cooked vegetables and meat.

Absolutely! Fruits and coconut oil are very problematic for me too. I was eating CO for almost 10 years thinking that one can't go wrong with it. Unfortunately I got to a point where I cannot eat even a tsp of refined CO without major digestive issues. And I used to preach around about it's wonderful properties! When my gut started giving me problems I suspected everything but CO. It was the only thing I was absolutely convinced is good for me, but after half a year or so without any progress I was forced to look at it in a different light. I excluded it from the diet completely and my gut started getting better. I don't think CO is bad, I just think it's good to be open minded and consider everything when problems arise, even things that one considers safe.

 

[artist]

After a four day trial I will say that the beef fat didn't cause problems as immediate or severe as coconut oil or butter, but the issues are nevertheless returning, especially the chemical sensitivity, the constant hungover feeling, anxiety, brain fog, and my face looking swollen. I also had a return of the pain in my lower left abdomen that happens when I combine starch and fat. Conversely my knee did feel better within 1 days of the added fat (my left knee is pretty creaky ever since dislocating my kneecap 4 years ago) and my stomach was flatter. I wonder if it's the fat or the other components in hamburger that would affect that.

 

[jyb]

Yes, and some of the negative effects or intolerance to SFA like coconut/palm kernel oil can be seen from people who descend from cooler climates. A lot of my Black or Asian friends tolerate these tropical oils far better than my white friends. I am Polish/Greek/Irish/Macedonian, my ancestry has never in history been exposed to coconut oil; until now.

Coconut oil and other SFA like butter or cream are wildly different. Coconut oil is more like sugar, it stimulates insulin so should kill beta oxidation. Butter is the opposite, the fatty acids found in dairy promote beta oxidation. Pufa oils reduce beta oxidation so are also opposite from that point of view.

 

[artist]

Hi all, I felt I should come back and update this thread since I ultimately wound up abandoning my starch/no fat project. Around the time of my last post my anxiety kept ramping up to an unacceptable level, the scary pancreatic/lower left side pain went from sporadic to constant (echoes the experience of @lindsay perhaps) and ultimately the initial benefits evaporated anyway. The last month or so i've been eating basically lowish carb which is what I used to do before Peat except now I know to specifically avoid PUFA and gluten and it's been going much better than anything I've tried. I simply apply the principles of sticking to animal fats and I get like 100 carbs a day from sugars, kinda following the logic of Paul Jaminet. Things aren't perfect but I plan on sticking with this indefinitely as my mental health and energy levels have been very good.

 

[DaveFoster]

I'm wondering why I'm getting such profound anxiety, and then I remember, "Oh! I've been eating more starches."

They're really not compatible with some people. Stick to sugar.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Theres more sugar in sugar than in starch... why are you guys doing this?