White Bread, the OPTIMAL starch choice?

[Runenight201]

Now, before I get started, I'd have to address why I believe starch intake is necessary at all, after all, couldn't one obtain all the necessary for optimal health carbohydrates through fruit and sugar intake alone?

And many people know the problems with starch, they eat some rice or potatoes and they are bloated for the next couple hours with impaired energy production, ahedonia, depression, etc...

I believe that one can generate higher energy outputs from starch consumption than from without it, essentially one's metabolism runs better when it is fully digesting starch and using it properly for energy with NO insulin resistance.

Fruit and sugar comes packaged as sucrose, which has the glucose-fructose bonded together. I believe that fructose is fine UP to a certain point, but once that threshold is reached, any excess becomes damaging, and that this threshold is reached far before the body is going to meet it's required carbohydrate intake. This problem is avoided if starch is consumed as an energy source. (That was some heavy speculation so if anybody is vibing with me on that theory and can help me out with some evidence that'd be much appreciated!!)

So if we have better metabolisms with starch intake, the next question would be, what is the best form of starch?

When comparing the nutrient profiles of the various starch sources, per 100g, this is what I get

This really shocked me because what I saw was that white bread was the most calorically and nutrient dense vs potatoes and white rice. I didn't compare minerals because honestly I believe the b-vitamins, proteins, and carb content are the most important components. Minerals are important, don't get me wrong, but what I was trying to answer for myself is, why do I feel so much better eating white bread vs potatoes and rice?

Well I believe the b-vitamin, protein, and carb contents really answer that question. Just taking a look at Vitamin B1 thiamine, which I've seen different people saying is a common deficiency that is causing a lot of health problems, it has 5x the amount vs potatoes and rice!

It also has higher protein content.

The only 2 categories I see it losing in is vitamin B6, so eating bread with an additional vitamin B6 source would be very smart, and then PUFA as well, in which it has significantly higher levels of it.

Well that could be mitigated by taking a Vitamin E supplement daily to keep that in check.

Unfortunately the database I was using (The USDA) didn't have Biotin contents for these foods

Lastly, white bread is more calorically dense per 100g, meaning that you get more glucose per bite. Why would this matter? Isn't overconsumption a big problem? Well, I believe that for most people, gut dysregulation and bloating is a big problem. People are bloated BEFORE they eat enough calories. Bloated with what? People like to say its fiber, but could it actually be just water? Look at the water content of rice and potatoes vs bread... bread has way less water and more calories, meaning more actually GLUCOSE can get into the stomach instead of just bloating it up with.... water!!!

 

[Veritas IV]

A good topic in general and well worthy of discussion however two sticking points off the top of my head would be gluten and glyphosate concerns. Beyond that another more remote concern may be persorption that accompanies improper preparation and or compromised intestinal linings. Of course there are mitigation measures etc etc but these examples would be considerations for many here imo.

 

[milk_lover]

I would love to eat white bread all the time. But I don’t think gluten is a good idea. It’s a toxic protein. However, people who eat bread are usually stronger than people eating rice. Maybe rice has a feminizing substance. I don’t know.

 

[Razvan]

Wheat is pretty toxic, immunogenic proteins and its not the best, can make you blunted.
The best wheat products are dessert type, like croissants with butter or something italian like pandoro which is made with egg yolks and butter, these are the ones that dont give me a very strong effect in terms of blunting mood.

 

[Peatful]

Ill jump in here quickly

- fodmaps was real for me.
So that’s another angle for the fruit avoidance. Fruit was less than ideal- and quite damaging for me on my healing journey.

Im healed now and therefore can handle most fruits

- iron in white bread is difficult to avoid here in the US.

- no mention on sourdough? Be interesting to see its profile.

- I found crustless white bread easy to digest. I did not avoid it while I healed. And would comfortably eat it again. But not as my carb staple.

 

[Michael Mohn]

I agree with you observations and I made the same experience. Eating small portions of starches during the day raises metabolism and gives high levels of energy.
Especially if a person is physically active it becomes hard to cover the energy needs from fruit. I guess the 'phenols' in fruit and honey, beneficial to a certain amount start to become a problem if consumption is more than 2kg of fruit per day.

I think starches become a problem if you eat to much in one meal and if you're sedentary and the muscles can't absorb the glucose punch.

While potato and rice give good energy, bread and pasta are much more palpable, easier to eat and raise metabolism much more.

The gluten question is an unsolved puzzle. The data shows gluten being really bad but I don't feel a problem. Surprisingly I feel a big problem with potatoes. I experimented with germinating grains like wheat, barley, buckwheat.
Germination, turning grains into young vegetables reduces anti nutrients massively and increases nutrients. I would like to germinate wheat and turn it into a flower for baking but I don't have the time and equipment at the moment.

 

[Michael Mohn]

Beer made from germinated, heated, fermented grains should be a perfect high carb food but the hops and the high alcohol content are a big problem.

 

[Runenight201]

Yes I believe glyphosate is a real problem and we should all be seeking for ways to minimize it's impact into our bodies. Italy for instance has banned the use of glyphosate, so eating wheat products imported from Italy is a way to get around that. I believe they also won't have added iron into the product as well @Peatful @Veritas IV

@milk_lover @Razvan it seems like y'all are speaking on an apparent contradiction. Perhaps there is a deeper truth lying somewhere here? You all have both stated that gluten is toxic, immunogenic, etc... but that anecdotally people you notice eating it are stronger or that mixed in with dairy products its good.

I will say that I don't eat my bread straight, when I had a noticeable positive reaction yesterday is when I dipped it into butter from grass-fed cows and then some cheese on top of it. I know for a fact that by mixing starch with fat and protein it reduces the insulinogenic effect of starch. I would theorize as far as to say it enhances the capability of the body to break down the starch and then transfer the glucose into the cell for energy production.

Also, in regards to people being stronger eating wheat, I'd say it would have to be due to the higher protein content of the grain compared to potatoes and rice. It has 4x the amount of protein.

I do wonder if perhaps the immune stimulating properties of wheat may in fact be a red herring for the true problem which is that many people are just stuck in a very inflamed state. In this inflamed state, EVERYTHING is toxic except for the most benign and nourishing of foods such as meat/fruit. But where people are better off is being in a place of low inflammation when they can take an abundance of calories from meat, starch, fruit, sugar, vegetation, etc.... which will provide a lot more substrate for their metabolism to produce a large amount of ATP

 

[Razvan]

Yes I believe glyphosate is a real problem and we should all be seeking for ways to minimize it's impact into our bodies. Italy for instance has banned the use of glyphosate, so eating wheat products imported from Italy is a way to get around that. I believe they also won't have added iron into the product as well @Peatful @Veritas IV

@milk_lover @Razvan it seems like y'all are speaking on an apparent contradiction. Perhaps there is a deeper truth lying somewhere here? You all have both stated that gluten is toxic, immunogenic, etc... but that anecdotally people you notice eating it are stronger or that mixed in with dairy products its good.

I will say that I don't eat my bread straight, when I had a noticeable positive reaction yesterday is when I dipped it into butter from grass-fed cows and then some cheese on top of it. I know for a fact that by mixing starch with fat and protein it reduces the insulinogenic effect of starch. I would theorize as far as to say it enhances the capability of the body to break down the starch and then transfer the glucose into the cell for energy production.

Also, in regards to people being stronger eating wheat, I'd say it would have to be due to the higher protein content of the grain compared to potatoes and rice. It has 4x the amount of protein.

I do wonder if perhaps the immune stimulating properties of wheat may in fact be a red herring for the true problem which is that many people are just stuck in a very inflamed state. In this inflamed state, EVERYTHING is toxic except for the most benign and nourishing of foods such as meat/fruit. But where people are better off is being in a place of low inflammation when they can take an abundance of calories from meat, starch, fruit, sugar, vegetation, etc.... which will provide a lot more substrate for their metabolism to produce a large amount of ATP

I dont think people eating wheat are healthier, its one of the most disease causing foods around the world, the historic argument about people eating wheat is crap, we can give historic argument to everything, its clearly that humans before agricolture were healthier, starch and agricolture caused war and competitivity.
Thats one of the most common effect from eating starch, competitivity and delusion.

People should leave in peace be united and happy, today from muscle meat and starch people are forever chasing a success driven pathway, money and all of this work hard propaganda you can find online from puppets like Andrew Tate. When you are happy after eating fruit/honey and milk you dont care at all about all that crap. Its easier to find yourself following crap promoted by a degenerated society when eating starch and muscle meat. People are divided.

 

[sunny]

Is the nutrient value on the graph measuring "fortified " bread?

 

[Runenight201]

@Razvan I definitely agree with your angle that the food choices we eat influence our behaviors and drives. I can see also your angle about how solely eating milk/fruit/honey would lead to more cooperative, happier people, but I would like you to consider the angle of metabolic health.

Will a fruit/milk/honey diet lead people to be more regenerative, produce more energy, and live longer than people incorporating more foods into their diet? Are people solely eating fruit/milk/honey smarter? Better able to function? More resilient?

Also, competitiveness is baked into biology itself. Yes organisms cooperate so long as it provides survival advantages, however, Life wants to survive and replicate, and as it can repeatedly be shown, if one organisms survival means another's death, than it will always occur, at the bacterial or cellular level, or at the level that includes multi-cellular complex organisms such as plants and animals. Peace and love isn't a smart survival strategy if you're Jewish and Hitler comes knocking on your door.

@sunny that is a good point. The database said it was commercially prepared, so I would probably assume that yes it is?

 

[sunny]

Dr Peat talked about potato protein in many interviews and said it is of even higher quality than egg, and people can subsist on a diet of well cooked potato very well. He adds that butter with potato prevents persorption of starch.

 

[CastorTroy]

I dont think people eating wheat are healthier, its one of the most disease causing foods around the world, the historic argument about people eating wheat is crap, we can give historic argument to everything, its clearly that humans before agricolture were healthier, starch and agricolture caused war and competitivity.
Thats one of the most common effect from eating starch, competitivity and delusion.

People should leave in peace be united and happy, today from muscle meat and starch people are forever chasing a success driven pathway, money and all of this work hard propaganda you can find online from puppets like Andrew Tate. When you are happy after eating fruit/honey and milk you dont care at all about all that crap. Its easier to find yourself following crap promoted by a degenerated society when eating starch and muscle meat. People are divided.

Grains other than modern hybridized wheat, like rye or barley, gives me great amounts of energy and well-being, as well as potatoes. I eat fruit more like a snack. But starch reigns supreme in terms of energy metabolism. I don't buy the generic "gluten is toxic" assertion independent of the grain source. Its complete non-sense to me.

 

[Razvan]

One of the most non-sense post I read in a long time.

That's what im talking about.
Thank you for your input in being an exemple and give us some proof Castor!

 

[FitnessMike]

That's what im talking about.
Thank you for your input in being an exemple and give us some proof Castor!

Can you understand that a lot of peoples cant just go on fruits as only source of carbs?

 

[Aymen]

Now, before I get started, I'd have to address why I believe starch intake is necessary at all, after all, couldn't one obtain all the necessary for optimal health carbohydrates through fruit and sugar intake alone?

And many people know the problems with starch, they eat some rice or potatoes and they are bloated for the next couple hours with impaired energy production, ahedonia, depression, etc...

I believe that one can generate higher energy outputs from starch consumption than from without it, essentially one's metabolism runs better when it is fully digesting starch and using it properly for energy with NO insulin resistance.

Fruit and sugar comes packaged as sucrose, which has the glucose-fructose bonded together. I believe that fructose is fine UP to a certain point, but once that threshold is reached, any excess becomes damaging, and that this threshold is reached far before the body is going to meet it's required carbohydrate intake. This problem is avoided if starch is consumed as an energy source. (That was some heavy speculation so if anybody is vibing with me on that theory and can help me out with some evidence that'd be much appreciated!!)

So if we have better metabolisms with starch intake, the next question would be, what is the best form of starch?

When comparing the nutrient profiles of the various starch sources, per 100g, this is what I get

View attachment 59528

This really shocked me because what I saw was that white bread was the most calorically and nutrient dense vs potatoes and white rice. I didn't compare minerals because honestly I believe the b-vitamins, proteins, and carb content are the most important components. Minerals are important, don't get me wrong, but what I was trying to answer for myself is, why do I feel so much better eating white bread vs potatoes and rice?

Well I believe the b-vitamin, protein, and carb contents really answer that question. Just taking a look at Vitamin B1 thiamine, which I've seen different people saying is a common deficiency that is causing a lot of health problems, it has 5x the amount vs potatoes and rice!

It also has higher protein content.

The only 2 categories I see it losing in is vitamin B6, so eating bread with an additional vitamin B6 source would be very smart, and then PUFA as well, in which it has significantly higher levels of it.

Well that could be mitigated by taking a Vitamin E supplement daily to keep that in check.

Unfortunately the database I was using (The USDA) didn't have Biotin contents for these foods

Lastly, white bread is more calorically dense per 100g, meaning that you get more glucose per bite. Why would this matter? Isn't overconsumption a big problem? Well, I believe that for most people, gut dysregulation and bloating is a big problem. People are bloated BEFORE they eat enough calories. Bloated with what? People like to say its fiber, but could it actually be just water? Look at the water content of rice and potatoes vs bread... bread has way less water and more calories, meaning more actually GLUCOSE can get into the stomach instead of just bloating it up with.... water!!!

White bread can have added minerals and vitamins and maybe oil, it also has gluten. Whole wheat bread has phytic acid and more fiber which will lower the absorption of zinc, iron, calcium and magnesium.

One can live on mostly fruits and milk, provided that he lives in a sunny climate and in a country where fruit production is good quality, otherwise you may have to eat starches to survive or milk, let's say that you can't do good with milk so you are left with meat and starches, greens are boring and not satisfying so the best way would be to eat white rice and potatoes but potatoes have solanine, white rice is boring without sauce, but the sauce is made with additives and the tomatoes have lycopene, but lycopene will lower DHT so you can't eat potatoes everyday because of the solanine, you can see how complicated it can go if someone overthinks about what he should eat in a day but there is an optimal diet for everyone. White rice is the best option, you can make it with curcumin, black pepper, cinammon and ginger, onions, garlic and beef, that way it tastes good. you can try potatoes 2-3 times a week, organic pasta or white/whole wheat bread once a week, white rice in the days you don't eat potatoes, and sees how you go. I think the best way to include starch in your diet is to lift heavy and eat it post workout.

 

[Runenight201]

Wont white rice also be fortified?

 

[Razvan]

Can you understand that a lot of peoples cant just go on fruits as only source of carbs

Why Mike? How do you feel from fruits and starch?
There is specific type of fruits that are best and you can thrive on them when they are ripe. And some specific type of honeys.
A lot of fruits are suboptimal and make you feel worse. Its not only about fruit or starch its about which fruits and which starches.
There are some starches that are better in lower amounts than other ones.

 

[Aymen]

Wont white rice also be fortified?

fortification is made to add the nutrients that are lost in wheat bran or rice bran to the bread or rice so white rice can be fortified too, but i,m not sure if fortified food is risky, if eating gluten is a problem then one can limit it 1-2 times a week instead of every meal and everyday, i used to eat starches instead of fruits during my teenage years and it was so easy to gain weight, with a fruit diet it's very easy to be thin.

 

[Veritas IV]

Yes I believe glyphosate is a real problem and we should all be seeking for ways to minimize it's impact into our bodies. Italy for instance has banned the use of glyphosate, so eating wheat products imported from Italy is a way to get around that. I believe they also won't have added iron into the product as well.

This is good news, thank you for informing. It may take a tiny bit of backup research on my part since Italian corporations have been known to send different product formulations to North America compared to the EU. Adulterated olive oil being the most obvious example. Or they will source international ingredients, process them, then fix a 'made in Italy' label on the final product. But long story short there are a few ways to avoid or even partially mitigate glyphosate, glycine intake being one of them.

@milk_lover @Razvan it seems like y'all are speaking on an apparent contradiction. Perhaps there is a deeper truth lying somewhere here? You all have both stated that gluten is toxic, immunogenic, etc... but that anecdotally people you notice eating it are stronger or that mixed in with dairy products its good.

I will say that I don't eat my bread straight, when I had a noticeable positive reaction yesterday is when I dipped it into butter from grass-fed cows and then some cheese on top of it. I know for a fact that by mixing starch with fat and protein it reduces the insulinogenic effect of starch. I would theorize as far as to say it enhances the capability of the body to break down the starch and then transfer the glucose into the cell for energy production.

Same here, i feel much better eating white breads that have been lightly toasted, lightly coated in a good fat and with a smaller portion of protein, even some collagen mixed into a drink alongside it.

Have also read somewhere here that aspirin beforehand has a specific protective effect within the intestine . And last but not least, the addition of some sodium bicarbonate to the boiling water a few minutes before the pasta is finished cooking. Drain afterward, rinse, drain a second time. Similar to the nixtimalization of corn aka masa harina. Afterward i may combine it with my favorite melted cheese, some ground beef, a scoop of collagen and a tablespoon of nutritional yeast. Tomato sauce mixed into the cheese is optional. This homemade "hamburger helper" recipe will then go down with much less of a bloating and torpor effect, but i still recommend mild activity afterward even it's simply a walk around the block. There is much energy stored into this meal.

Also, in regards to people being stronger eating wheat, I'd say it would have to be due to the higher protein content of the grain compared to potatoes and rice. It has 4x the amount of protein.

I do wonder if perhaps the immune stimulating properties of wheat may in fact be a red herring for the true problem which is that many people are just stuck in a very inflamed state. In this inflamed state, EVERYTHING is toxic except for the most benign and nourishing of foods such as meat/fruit. But where people are better off is being in a place of low inflammation when they can take an abundance of calories from meat, starch, fruit, sugar, vegetation, etc.... which will provide a lot more substrate for their metabolism to produce a large amount of ATP

Agreed in a way that digestion and intestinal integrity would be intact ideally. And if a person is suddenly not feeling well then temporarily avoiding certain wheat preparations may be an option till the issue has resolved itself.