Too Much White Sugar?

[schultz]

Peat has said that white sugar + starch can cause problems.

I wish he would have said why. At first it seems like what he is saying is that you need more nutrient density, so focus on eggs, milk, etc. But then he says avoid starchy vegetables and use leafy greens, which I suppose is also more nutrient dense but also makes it seem like it's specifically the starch he's talking about. In one of the older podcasts Ray says that it would be beneficial to add sucrose or just fructose to a starch meal so that fructose is added to the glucose of the starch. This makes it seem like eating a sugar, be it fruit or white sugar, with a starch, is beneficial.

 

[schultz]

Yeah, I'd love to get skim milk. It would honestly help keeping my fat low (I aim for 45g but I usually get 60g for 120g of protein and 350-400g of carbs). But this really bugged me out:

Tip: Another Reason to Avoid Low-Fat Milk | T Nation

I know the source isn't the best and it's only one study, but this really made me worry and it made some sense.

" 'Milk consumption resulted in a significant increase in urinary estrone (E1) excretion, whereas estradiol (E2), estriol (E3), and 16ketoE2 excretion only increased after semi-skimmed milk consumption.'
Moreover, the semi-skimmed milk led to a higher percentage of conjugated estrogens, which are the most bioavailable form of estrogen and have a longer half-life. They're also the type found in birth control pills.

The scientists theorized that maybe the fat in the whole milk inhibited the enzymes needed to deconjugate the estrogen."

Also, the brand of milk I get is UHT, but it's totally reliable (never had issues with it). They do produce semi skimmed and skim milk, but I haven't found it yet. Wish we had 1% where I live, as it's the perfect ratio of fats/carbs/protein.

This is constantly debated on the forum, and there are good points on both sides. I think someone has even brought that specific article up. Funny that T-nation posted that since the amount of estrogen you would get supplementing testosterone would be massively higher than the amount from milk, which is minuscule. That particular article is not talking about skim milk either, it is talking about 1.5%.

Here are a couple threads discussing the milk/estrogen thing. The first one talks about the T-nation article.
Drinking Skim Milk Can Contribute To Having Higher-than-desirable Estrogen Levels
Estrogen In Milk

I always had this doubt, how do you guys consume those amounts throughout the day? Do you prepare one batch and eat it throughout the day? Do you sip in every half an hour or do you spread it in meal like portion?

I work from home so I just make a latte whenever I want. If I don't want to have to keep making them then I just make a big batch and put it in a thermos. I also make other things other than latte's like hot chocolate (milk with chocolate chips melted in it), milk w/ vanilla, gelatin and an egg yolk, and soup milk which is concentrated broth (like chicken broth w/ leafy greens) with salt, gelatin and some herbs for flavour. Occasionally I'll make a chai tea latte. The soup milk is actually really satisfying. I think most of my milk is consumed warm.

 

[ExCarniv]

This is constantly debated on the forum, and there are good points on both sides. I think someone has even brought that specific article up. Funny that T-nation posted that since the amount of estrogen you would get supplementing testosterone would be massively higher than the amount from milk, which is minuscule. That particular article is not talking about skim milk either, it is talking about 1.5%.

Here are a couple threads discussing the milk/estrogen thing. The first one talks about the T-nation article.
Drinking Skim Milk Can Contribute To Having Higher-than-desirable Estrogen Levels
Estrogen In Milk



I work from home so I just make a latte whenever I want. If I don't want to have to keep making them then I just make a big batch and put it in a thermos. I also make other things other than latte's like hot chocolate (milk with chocolate chips melted in it), milk w/ vanilla, gelatin and an egg yolk, and soup milk which is concentrated broth (like chicken broth w/ leafy greens) with salt, gelatin and some herbs for flavour. Occasionally I'll make a chai tea latte. The soup milk is actually really satisfying. I think most of my milk is consumed warm.

Interesting, never thought about addingm milk to soups/broths, that's a so nutrient dense meal.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Since "Peating" I have increased a lot my milk intake and coffee intake, and as such had to increase my sugar intake. I usually use 10g of sugar per 100g of Milk and 20-25g of sugar per 250ml if Coffee. For all you Imperials, that's about 2 tbsp for each cup of coffee.

I know that I don't go so overboard as some members do, but I'm still reluctant, mostly because I don't supplement much. Besides collagen and magnesium, I don't really supplement that much. I consume an average of 100g of white sugar a day, primarily with milk and coffee. That means around a Pint of Whole milk for me and 2-3 cups of coffee. My overall diet isn't that bad, I hit most of my micros, which I have myself increased. I mainly eat papaya, banana, Guavas without the seeds, oranges, coffee, whole milk, local cheese, ground chuck, 80g of liver twice a week, collagen, eggs, gelatin. Cook with coconut oil and butter mainly. I usually eat a starch at night, either potatoes, white sweet potatoes some rare occasions rice. Also, for some reason I consume a truck load of Kale, mainly with lunch and dinner.

Since I am young (18) and have "high" caloric requirements (I am testing out with 2800-3000kcal and see how I feel after eating mostly a 1800-2000kcal diet), the sugar really helps. I am more worried about the frequency, as I do this daily. By the looks of my diet, and being I don't supplement, can this amount of sugar lead to any deficiency?

Supplements Id like to use:
BCAA to offset Tryptophan from meat
Vitamin E (Can't find one in Brazil with high doses)
Vitamin K2 (Same issue)
Aspirin (don't have the above to support high dosage)
There is also the cost factor. I am really on a budget so I can't give myself the luxury of buying supplements or eating 3000kcal from "peaty" fruits only (bananas don't spoil as quickly, and I use papaya, orange, etc mostly for variety) and quality products (most dairy here has some additives. The best I got is a UHT milk with "only" sodium citrate. That's why I like so much meat and probably couldn't give it up)

I am having some weird mild chest and liver pain also, mostly at the end of the day. Only complaint after "Peating"

I would advise rather strongly against "Supplementation" with white Sugar.Ray Peat also isnt a true Fan of it.More in times of high stress and if no
other sugar-source is available to upkeep systemic Glucoselevels.B-Vitamin -Deficiency is all to real,Thiamin-Deficiency wrecks you.Wernicke-Korsakow-Psychosis.
Dont do it.Ray Peat isnt about Garbage Diet for wishful-thinking-Gulls =] .Keep it fresh and clean,if its an actual technological Product,dont consume it.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Also your supplement stack should contain a B-Complex with at least 200%to500% of RDA.A couple of Peating People complain about aches.
I do hope it is not beginning Neuropathy-Pain though.

 

[_lppaiva]

I would advise rather strongly against "Supplementation" with white Sugar.Ray Peat also isnt a true Fan of it.More in times of high stress and if no
other sugar-source is available to upkeep systemic Glucoselevels.B-Vitamin -Deficiency is all to real,Thiamin-Deficiency wrecks you.Wernicke-Korsakow-Psychosis.
Dont do it.Ray Peat isnt about Garbage Diet for wishful-thinking-Gulls =] .Keep it fresh and clean,if its an actual technological Product,dont consume it.

I understand your point, but I wouldn't say I am "supplementing". Being that some experiments have added up to 1-1½ cups of sugar per day to Diabetics, I don't think my 80-100g is worrisome.

I had mainly reduced my fructose intake while maintaining a higher glucose to fructose ratio (In the ideal world it would be 1:1, but I can't eat that much fructose anymore). I had kept my fructose from 35-50g while my sucrose is from 25-50g, as to add to around 90-100g of fructose tops. Considering that I eat around 300g of carbs, that meant around 100g from starch. That didn't work much.

I will be increasing my protein intake to 150-160g and reducing calories and fats to 2000kcal and 45g respectively. Skim milk will be my best friend lol, despite the higher estrogen bioavalibility (otherwise my phosphorus:calcium ratio goes to hell with that much protein). I will also be lowering fructose to about 10g a day while increasing my consumption of starch and resistant starch, based mainly on Matt Stones book and Chris masterjohns advice. I will also be drinking 1 redbull a day as a way to up my Caffeine, Niacinamide and Taurine, all liver friendly.

You seem to be strong on the B vitamins. I am unfortunately broke asf so supplementing anything besides magnesium (which is a must for me due to anxiety) is kinda of off the table. Also, I don't think peat is as antisugar as you think he is, which for me wouldn't make much sense. Is starch so detrimental that something without nutrients is better, just due to it's fructose content?

 

[Tristan Loscha]

No,i believe starch is relatively fine,for Peat also.I would advise strongly against intake of refined sugar though.

Causes of Thiamine Deficiency
Excessive intake of carbohydrate-rich foods that are low in thiamine e.g. white rice, sugar, glucose including IV glucose or feeding given to patients in hospital



Clinical Picture of Deficiency in Adults

There are several distinct clinical pictures that can result from thiamine deficiency. They include:

Muscle pain – typically in the calves due to rapid accumulation of lactic acid after slight physical activity
Congestive cardiac failure – shortness of breath, fluid retention and a rapid and sometimes bounding pulse
Peripheral neuropathy – loss of sensation and sometimes strength in the hands or lower limbs
Wernicke’s Encephalopathy – ataxia (unsteadiness), impaired consciousness and problems of eye movement
Korsakoff’s Psychosis – loss of memory for both new (anterograde) and past (retrograde) events together with confabulation, making up a version of events to cover for the loss of memory
Other features – hypothermia, hypotension (low blood pressure) and autonomic neuropathy